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New CAP

  • 26-10-2021 7:35pm
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 6,412 ✭✭✭ kevthegaff


    How do ye feel on the new changes?



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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 1,690 ✭✭✭ paddysdream


    Not happy but then I'm a farmer so what's new .



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,462 ✭✭✭ herdquitter


    Convergence heading in the right direction, more should have been done though.

    Eco scheme needs more options IMO.

    CRISS is a good thing for lower HA farms.

    Not sure yet what the story is with the new environmental scheme.

    Bigger problems coming at a lot of us besides CAP imo.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,690 ✭✭✭ paddysdream


    On a serious note I am still unhappy but I don't think there is gonna be any major changes to what is being proposed .

    I will admit to having (had?) a decent BPS (started at about twice average per entitlement and small bit more than national average area )

    At this stage reckon its down 30% in actual terms and a fair bit more allowing for inflation .Must actually check exact drop as area farmed is very same as 2005 .Could be miles out though .

    Headline figure as per Minister is misleading as around here have yet to meet one farmer who will see the CAP give even what they were getting previously and any I have talked to will see a serious drop .

    Mike Brady in todays Indo is spot on when he says that any eco-enviro scheme will have a poor enough uptake unless incentive is realistic. Back in 1995(?) REPS 1 was 7k plus in pounds which equates to almost 9k euros .That's 26 years ago and will be 30 years in the past when the final payments on any new scheme are drawn down .What sector would see a payment similar to what they got 30 years ago as a good idea ?



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,462 ✭✭✭ herdquitter


    €10k seems to be the top of the new environmental scheme payment, as always what will one have to do to draw that down... I've read in the meeja that one would need to either be in an EIP or have hen harriers or such. But, the grapevine has told me privately that's not so.

    It's an interesting contrast seeing what I think are animal rights protesters scaling a DEFRA building over in the UK, farmers think we do protesting but honestly we're **** at it.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,690 ✭✭✭ paddysdream


    Think its 7k max if not in an SAC etc .Like I said REPS 1 was more than that 25 years ago and costs have moved on a fair bit in that time .

    Talking to a couple of planners recently and they both said that the current REAP scheme was a joke



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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,462 ✭✭✭ herdquitter


    I agree re costs, CAP not being index linked etc. What to do is the issue, which is why I find other groups ways of protesting interesting, plus what seems like a much better media operation than farming has. Other sectors aren't as dependent as farmers are, therefore have more bargaining/strike power. We're in an unhealthy position.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,690 ✭✭✭ paddysdream


    All the things that I don't like you seem to like !!!!

    Convergence just means less for me ,eco scheme could be a problem here ,CRISS no help ,environmental scheme will be poorer than Glas I think ie less or similar money for a lot more expense/work .

    Not sure re bigger problems you mention .Carbon/climate change sh**e ?



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,690 ✭✭✭ paddysdream


    Perhaps not a better media operation ,rather we are the carbon climate change whipping boys at the moment and that won't change for a while .Amazing to think that people are so removed from reality that food production ie the single most important thing humans need along with heat and shelter , is reduced to competing with data centers ,importation of tat from China (guilty as charged ) and numerous other activities to get off the naughty step .



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,462 ✭✭✭ herdquitter


    If I have my own figures right I will lose a bit from where I am now, that needs to be seen from the perspective I haven't been a wet week getting a decent payment. I'm ok with that as I know what it's like being at the bottom of the barrel, and I don't have a problem with the low HA farms getting a top up through CRISS. I'll have to see the detail of the eco schemes T's & C's but there are...1, 2, possibly 3 that won't work for me/I don't like, all of a sudden my 5 options become 2 obligatory measures.

    Reserving judgement on environmental scheme, like the eco scheme I need to see the T's & C's, what suits my neighbours doesn't always suit me as I'm heading down a different road.

    Bigger problems are incoming designations, 13% of the country to 30% with 10% of the country "strictly protected", after that it'll be the half earth strategy ie 50% designations. A lot don't see this as a problem for them, but they will be at some point in the future. A bit like the song Yellow Triangle.

    Not sure how the other stuff you mention will affect me, but if sea levels rise... I'll lose a lot of land in one place, and I'll lose road access to most of the rest (on an island).



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,690 ✭✭✭ paddysdream


    350 feet over sea level here so a lot of wet nights before the water is lapping at my front door /field gate .

    Designation of land etc I don't think will ever affect me here as its a mainly tillage area around here .



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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,462 ✭✭✭ herdquitter


    A sea view is nice, nicer from a height. We lost a little bit of land in the Jan 2014 storms, took the soil right off the rock.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,690 ✭✭✭ paddysdream


    Protesting /striking is easy if everyone involved wants the same end result .For example if a factory staff go on strike for a 10% payrise then a win will see everyone's wages increase by whatever is finally agreed .

    Farmer tractor protest in Dublin had about 40 different disparate groups looking for 40 different things ,some contradictory to others on the same protest .Same with beef factory blockade ;every man had a different end result in mind that would suit them all whilst others needed cattle killed at the same time .

    Most protests are a waste of time ;just a safety valve to let off steam and politicians know this .Farmers are unable to withdraw labour or withhold produce so how can we protest like other sectors ? Plus each farmer is competing (often in his own mind only ) with other farmers so a lose lose situation .



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,462 ✭✭✭ herdquitter


    That's why I see the system itself as the biggest problem, not the other lad on the protest. Everyone shouts their own corner is understandable.

    We're controlled to a high degree, by Government, factories, multiples, eNGO's etc. Our routes to market are controlled or made difficult/expensive and soon 3 out of every ten hectares will be controlled.

    I live in a small village and we used have two slaughterhouses which did a roaring trade, none now. I bet applying for an on farm slaughter facility would be cheap and fun, not!



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,412 ✭✭✭ kevthegaff


    I was getting about 170 a hectare plus disadvantage. How will I pan out?



  • Registered Users Posts: 552 ✭✭✭ eire23


    With the front loading or criss I think its called? It's paid on a max 30 hectares. Would it not have made more sense to pay it at a higher rate on lower hectares. It would have suited smaller farms better which was the idea i thought??



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,462 ✭✭✭ herdquitter


    I think 30 ha could be around the "average" size farm, I reckon that number was a political decision. Would have preferred 20 or less tbh.



  • Registered Users Posts: 552 ✭✭✭ eire23


    That would have made more sense id have thought.

    The journal online had a bps calculator today, had to put in this year's payment and area farmed and it showed how you would far out in 2023. Might be of use to someone.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,302 ✭✭✭ alps




  • Registered Users Posts: 14,310 ✭✭✭✭ Bass Reeves


    I am at present about 300/HA. I have 27HA in total but only 25 going into area aid. From 2023 it all will go into AA. I will get Eco scheme on it all and Criss top up on my 27HA payment I expect a small reduction. I would like if you got new entitlement with you previous payment spread over your larger area however that will not happen from what I understand. I will also get ANC on total HA.

    Another advantage is around the ring larger payments will not have as much influence. I hope as well to increase my environment payment last time I was at only 1.7k I like to double that at least.

    It worked out much as I predicted 5+, years ago so not overly surprised. Did not expect the convergence to be as high and with eco payment and CRISS it is actually 90%+ convergence.

    Capital and lease value of payments will collapse as eco is decoupled from it. New payment per HA accross the country will be in the 150-200/ha average by 2026 with an eco payment of 65-80/HA and Criss of 43 on first 30HA.

    Slava Ukrainii



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  • Registered Users Posts: 552 ✭✭✭ eire23


    I seen that afterwards. Still. It gives a rough idea of where one might be in 2023 regards payments.



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,310 ✭✭✭✭ Bass Reeves


    There will be very little change from one year to the next. Unless you can see multiple years you cannot see the way payments are going

    Slava Ukrainii



  • Registered Users Posts: 552 ✭✭✭ eire23


    You can on that farmers journal calculator. You put in this year's payment and your total hectares farmed But its presuming that you get the full 25% eco top up amd it gives you the full breakdown.

    If your payments are still above the national average ya can take it that it will be going down another bit



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,463 ✭✭✭ 893bet


    Link to farmers journal calculato? I can’t see it on their site



  • Registered Users Posts: 10,084 ✭✭✭✭ Base price


    This is the only one that I could find and I don't think it's correct as the dates are wrong.



  • Registered Users Posts: 10,084 ✭✭✭✭ Base price




  • Registered Users Posts: 6,412 ✭✭✭ kevthegaff


    How will it affect rented land, I have 10 hectares I give back the money..



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,310 ✭✭✭✭ Bass Reeves


    They ate making a few incorrect assumptions. They are not allowing for area on farm that was ineligible for payments this is now entitled to eco. They are assuming that eco will be only 63 euro. This is more like to be in the he 75-80 euro range.

    With capping at 6OishK some intensive farmers with payments of 70-100 k may decide to forego eco payment if there limit can be applied to BLISS part only. There will be farmers that will have no interest in our eco as well.

    Slava Ukrainii



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,310 ✭✭✭✭ Bass Reeves


    Technically now all you will have to give back is the BLISS element. Eco is decoupled. There will be some fair battles over this and it could go to legal in places.

    How long is left in the lease contract. As well as Criss is only paid on first 30 HA I would think it is tenants so that will hit higher leased payments as well

    Slava Ukrainii



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  • Registered Users Posts: 6,412 ✭✭✭ kevthegaff


    Only 3 left after this year, between inputs and this you would imagine prices will drop?



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