Opinion on Simmental

Biscuitus

Whats this forums opinion on the Simmental breed for sucklers versus Angus, Hereford, Charolais, limousine etc

Looking at the AI catalogue and they bring size and confirmation, range from easy calving to mature and have good milks stats so they tick the box for terminal and replacement.

Looking at a change of breeds on the farm. How are they calving? calves lively? Temperament? Hoofs? How well do they grade?

patsy_mccabe

My hoof trimmer says he pares a lot of Simmentals compared to other beef breeds. I think they cross great with limousin. I know if depends on individual bulls, but simms should bring milk, fertility and good docility. The white patch they bring on the forehead with lims can go against them though. Don't ask me why.

Biscuitus

I pair hoofs every year and that seems to have solved most of my trouble. Also culling the problem cows and using Ai instead of stock bulls has done wonders for hoof health.

Limestone Cowboy

I'm leaning back towards them a bit. Had simmental bulls here for years before going to the lims and charolais. Bought a simmental bull last year and I'm right happy with the calves out of him. I wouldn't say they are easy calving but they are not as hard as a charolais. Calves are really quiet, they would put the lims to shame in that regard and they weighed like lead.

funkey_monkey

What's your ground/facilities like? Big rangey cows like the Sim might be harder to keep on some ground prone to poaching or poorer grass growth/quality. In those areas I would have thought a smaller hardier cow like an Angus or Hereford might be better suited. You'd need to factor that into your decision making.

Biscuitus

Dry ground here(as long as the weather doesn't break down like last year!) so no problems with poaching.

So would the sim cows cost more to keep than Angus or Hereford cause of their size? I was also thinking how to reduce the size of some of my cows to get more efficient size cows.

Limestone Cowboy

A sim won't make them any smaller anyway.

funkey_monkey

I can only speak for our setup and land. The ones we had were big and were harder on the ground in terms of poaching after a bit of rain and also grass consumption.

We are out of them now, so I'll not comment on the cost to keep of the breed in general - some of the other who have them can give a more up to date opinion. Salers might be another option for you, although I've read different thoughts on their flightiness/temperament. Ch & Lim stores/weanlings always seem to be the most popular at the mart - so maybe pick your cows to suit a Ch/Lim bull?

Biscuitus

I've been warned about Salers temperament. I'd need to invest in better handling facilities if I was to go that route. Charloais are doing crazy prices in the mart but looking through the catalogue none of them are listed as replacement bulls, only for finishing stock and can run into milk problems. Limousin looks like a winner for sure.

Reading up about Aubrac now. Says the cows are smaller than most other breeds and kill out very well. Also very docile. That might be a better route.

Anto_Meath

Aubrac are nice, easy managed & fair enough for milk. But poor sellers in the marts as weanlings around here, lads think they are Jex. But I like them. However you can't beat the limo, generally easy calved, hardy when born to up & drinking quickly & good sellers in the mart at any age. But you can run into milk problems or lack of...

Easten

Had a couple a Simmental cows, too big for heavy land, produced a nice calf and finished them well but not a great seller in the mart, it seems the finishers don't like the Simmental cross as they grow too big and the carcass is over sized. They were the hungriest cows I ever had. All winter the had the head out the feed barrier knocking back silage. Easily eating nearly 2 bales of silage each/month.

As they got older they got harder to handle, 2 of them I couldn't inject for anything as they used to get vicious in the crush, swinging their head at you, kicking and what not.

minerleague

Years ago used to do some AI for 6 weeks at start found sim calves very lazy and soft at birth, great animals after but factories don't want big carcass weights. A lot of farmers seem to be finishing earlier now so maybe that's not as big a problem then.

funkey_monkey

Leftfield call, but you could get some Stabiliser cows and put them to Charolais AI/bull. They are smallish, mostly docile and efficient feeders. You could go for a Stabiliser bull too, but you'd be better with the Ch cross in mart. If you are going the AI route then I think ST straws are overpriced plus they take quite a while to get access to them.

Pre-calving minerals to the cows and not letting them get over fat can reduce a lot of issues at calving, but some bulls just turn a big or dopey calf regardless.

ETA - We have some ST. Some folk like them, others hate them.

blue5000

A sim cow would eat twice as much as an angus cow. That's all I have to say.

Biscuitus

Thanks lads! Simmental is the opposite route I want to go in.

Who2

I’ll go against the grain here, I like them as cows to breed replacements off. Small cows are grand on paper but you need a bit of size which the Simmental brings. Take a lim heifer off her and put to a ch bull and they are very hard bet.

Dunedin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118057745#Comment_118057745

That’s the route I’m at at the minute. Have weanlings now which will be going to bull next spring. Lim cows off sim bull back to lim bull. Time will tell.

Who2

Time to buy a well muscled charolais bull Dunedin you should have serious weanlings with enough milk to carry through the first ch heifers for breeding if that’s the way you wanted to go.

Limestone Cowboy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118057745#Comment_118057745

Ya I'm with you on that, saying that though I wouldn't like them too pure either. Found my cows were getting a bit too limousiney. Fine skins, lacking milk, hard calved, wild and that's why I'm changing it up a bit again. Have some lovely weanling heifers that I have high hopes for so time will tell how they work out.

jfh

I've been crossing lim of simxfr cows last few years, the cows aren't as big as limxfr cows, had few purebred sim and they were massive alright.

Heifers are nice but theyre just not as classy as lim and if they have a white head don't sell as well

DukeCaboom

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118059321#Comment_118059321

Are the six off your heifers? What age did their mothers calf down at?

DukeCaboom

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118059444#Comment_118059444

That's exactly it. I bought a good few simmentals the last few years, their calves just don't have the style as off the calves off LM cows. I'm going back to LM.

wrangler

I used to have simmenthals when I was at it, lovely cattle. we used a charolais bull and you could fatten the progeny at any age over 18 mths. they were big cows alright and were a problem in wet years

DukeCaboom

Ya that's one great thing about them there very quiet and easy to manage.

Gudstock

We have had a pick and mix of most breeds as suckler dams here. Over the past 5 seasons i have been using Sim bulls to put together a good base of homebred Sim cows and will work with these with more terminal sires going forward.

Yes, you take a hit on weanling bull prices, no one likes the white head on a weanling bull.

Cows are sizeable, but calving at 24 months slows down the massive growth, of course some bloodlines are tidier than others.

The cows make super dams, good calvers, quiet (this is not valued enough, and every society says their breed are the quietest- well Sims always are quiet) you cant put a value on quietness) milk, tough

I have started crossing these with a CH, super weanlings for sale.

The Sim/lim mix is a great cow alright, you like bring one F94L gene from the lim and cross then with a CH with a single Q or another F gene and then have a super shape to the calves.

Ill also go against the grain here in that for the past 3 seasons im working with a homebred hybrid Sim bull. 50 cent x blue ADX cow, one F94L gene. Only get white heads off of white head cows, on a solid cow he brings only a little white on forehead, much easier sellers and the myostatin is essential somewhere in the mix to get it into the calves. My ch type cows bring a golden calf off of him so thats a positive too

squinn2912

Here’s my sim bull found him very easy calved with second calvers and strong heifers but a bit tight with smaller heifers. Fairly docile, calves are mostly calm. I’m looking for a good ch bull now. Have a lim

at the moment too

squinn2912

Photos coming up anyway at all you may tilt the phone. Those are autumn calves. I’m happy with them some out of heifers. Bit more bone than lim but them calves have a lot of lim in most of them too will freshen up replacements

DukeCaboom

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118060870#Comment_118060870

You've a great type of cow there. Mine are a slightly lower type. Might try to get few pictures today.

squinn2912

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118061123#Comment_118061123

Thanks very much. Those white face ones are ones I bought as weanling/bulling heifers. Ch/wh 2/3 are great cows 1 just ok her calf was born a great one but shape leaving him.

I find sim pulls back the quality a little so if your cows were on the muscly side he’d be a good match, if they’re on the shelly side then that will come through in calves more so.

there’s maybe where ai is a good thing but I’m more a supporter of having your bull

Dunedin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118059155#Comment_118059155

Working full time off farm so find the limo a much better option. Easier calved and lively calves.

Finish all stock so white faces, mouse colours, black, pink are all the same when hanging up!!!

Hard Knocks

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118057307#Comment_118057307

Not on this farm

The SI cow is taller & longer than the AA cow, eats less and her CH calf sells for more money

Also the SIxAA is a good cow

Limestone Cowboy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118059479#Comment_118059479

Ya they are all springers calfs. Were all 3 year olds calving down. Heifer calfs were tiny, bulls were a bit dodgy on them. I think they cross a bit better onto a charolais cow than a lim. Bring nice soft hair and serious bone off a charolais cow.

squinn2912

Just thought I’d taking w couple of photos of these 10 month or so old calves. Mostly ai. The sim lad is a decent oul chunk and was a tough calving. Lims easier and far flashier. Must be £100 difference in them. If you have to live with 10 bulls for every 7/8 replacement heifers you’re into £1000. You’re a long time making it back if and it’s a big if the sim cow does a better job than the lim would have done

squinn2912

Then one like that will do any job mixing breeds I think always a good policy. Last photo

Biscuitus

What AI limousine bills are people using for replacements then? Most catalogues are full of terminal bulls that won't bring milk.

Anto_Meath

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118062398#Comment_118062398

Fair stock Squinn, they are a credit to you..

patsy_mccabe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118062653#Comment_118062653

Exactly, very poor choice of maternal bulls. You'd nearly be better off getting straws from Gene Ireland. I got IX (LM5983) last year. No calves yet.

Who2

top three sims all are due to calve to sfl over the next ten days( all second calves) the next two are brooklands Marco. Thankfully the one on the sim is a heifer so she’s already lined up as a replacement.

squinn2912

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118062940#Comment_118062940

Thanks pal you’re kind to say that. Those ones are good stock I have some not just anything special but the lims are the better cattle here anyhow and then at the ring too. Good point there about the maternal lim bulls we always keep our own replacements from our stock bulls. Previous oul bull did 12 seasons and was an excellent all rounder. The next boy I think more terminal and his heifers have gone back in milk but all calved to sim bull and majority heifers so we should have a decent pick. Latest bull is by eravelle and he seems to be an excellent all rounder although I think this bull is too fine for our cows which is why I’m looking at ch.

I bought some dairy cross heifers a couple of years ago and they have heifers now springing and we always try to stick to milky docile cows for replacements. Moving to ch would or will cut milk further so down the line a bit getting replacements would be something to consider but ch with fr in the back breeding would have plenty of milk too. So that’s my thnking. Sims are nice cattle in their own way and I like them for a cow but you need to do the sums on the hit you might take with the bull calves.

tanko

After weighing the cows and calves this week there’ll be more Saler cows here from now on, lighter cows with heavier calves than Limousin and Simmental cross cows here anyway. Great calvers, lots of milk, good feet, tidy udders, easy fed, they have a lot going for them.

hopeso

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118087548#Comment_118087548

What's their temperament like? Are they dangerous after calving?

tanko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118087568#Comment_118087568

I only have four of them yet, their temperament is the same as the Lims and Sims here, wouldn’t consider them dangerous after calving. Ive had my share of wild Lims and Charolais here over the years. The temperament of Saler cattle has improved a lot in recent years compared to what it was when they were first brought into this country i think. Have a couple of cows off Highfield Odran here, he bred quiet cattle for me, the other cows are off Rio and Valiant, haven’t had any bother with them. Have eight heifers and cows incalf to Manclaux for the spring, he’s breeding good docility from what i hear so far.

Hard Knocks

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118087548#Comment_118087548

Salers are good, in comparison with the LM & SI cows what’s the calf quality like, would you need a more muscle bull?

tanko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118087744#Comment_118087744

Calf quality is very good, they’re not muscly cows so yeah you would need to use a well muscled bull for best results, they cross very well with Charolais bulls. If you had the right Saler cows Culard Charolais bulls are supposed to be the bees knees but i won’t be trying anything like that. I’ve found Gamin very good on them here.

Hard Knocks

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118087796#Comment_118087796

Had noticed that too, the Saler has great pelvis and can take the high CD

DukeCaboom

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118087742#Comment_118087742

Ordran , vta and Rio were all great bulls to be fair. Had only one Rio ever here. What a cow. The ugliest looking yoke in the place. Had a topper of a calf every year.

squinn2912

Never had a saler cow here. We had a couple of calves but they were lunatics and weren’t kept on. No more lunatic than an odd lim would be but lunatic all the same. I know a charolais breeder who runs a suckler herd too and all his cows are saler, possibly pb too. I’ve tried parthanese on a few lims and kept them on as cows I’d be very happy with them but they were always on good lim heifers from proven cows that would have matched well with anything

Hard Knocks

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118088456#Comment_118088456

Half thinking on a Part cow, in comparison with their dam’s do they bring anymore than a LM/SI/BA would

Grueller

No point carrying a part cow unless you run a blue bull. Any other calf with the hint of part markings will be €150 to €200 back on where they should be.

squinn2912

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118088841#Comment_118088841

That may be true if you are selling weanlings or stores but we bring cattle forward and sell near finishing. They get comparable money to anything else here. I wouldn’t be too pushed on the blue with them they are pretty muscly and I’d be concerned about calving them. That said they all calved themselves this year. If you fancy scrolling back a bit those best sim calves both came out of 2 part cows. Full sim markings strangely. With the lim they usually have the colour and snout of the pt. They have pros and cons like any breed but although I do like them I’ve moved away from them a bit. One bull calf this year but he’s a clinker

J.O. Farmer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118088948#Comment_118088948

I don't think the blue bulls are that hard calved compared to say charolais.

They're muscly but fine boned. The problem is blue cows can have a narrow pelvis. As a fella once said there's a bit more give in muscle than bones.

The problem is if you go blue you need to be producing an export quality weanling, plain calves are poor sellers.