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exodus of small investors from the Irish rental sector has reduced the number of available tenancies



  • Registered Users Posts: 19,109 ✭✭✭✭ Muahahaha

    Question is where will they end up. Anecdotal I know but a friend sold an apartment in Swords recently- there was 3 bidders comprised of one couple and two investment funds. The funds drove the price beyond their expectations and could easily outbid the couple. I was surprised myself that funds are buying individual units but I guess with their sweetheart tax deal the rental income is pure gravy for them whereas the tax situation for a small investor is crippling.

  • Registered Users Posts: 15,971 ✭✭✭✭ rob316

    2 reasons, the value of the properties are at the peak of inflated prices so great time to sell. The other is its like the wild wild west in the rental market, desperately needs regulation.

  • Registered Users Posts: 913 ✭✭✭ MacronvFrugals

    Was driving through Cabra the other day and seen a massive new development which looks to be not far off ready, upon further reading this seems to be a new BTR complex of around 450 apartments, there is countless sites like this around the city which will be coming on stream over the next 12-15 months.

    If you're shelling out for the exorbitant rent it may aswell be from a professional REIT than a small time landlord imo

  • Registered Users Posts: 10,897 ✭✭✭✭ Dav010

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  • Registered Users Posts: 5,368 ✭✭✭ JimmyVik

    I wonder if anyone looked at what happened in other places where rent controls were brought in before bringing them in in Ireland.

    Doubt it or they would have been able to tell the future.

    I didnt think you could get worse than the previous ministers for housing but the one we have now is shocking. he just dopesnt have a notion what he is doing.

  • Posts: 18,752 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]

    Are you sure it's not the big social housing apartment development?

    Along carnlough road

    Edit, scrap that, just read about it, I was sure it was social housing! It probably will be anyway.

  • Registered Users Posts: 1,279 ✭✭✭ mrslancaster

    The problem seems to be that any more regulation may push more small landlords to sell up which reduces the supply even more.

    There's a lot of discussion about long term rentals and how many renters want that option. Is it not possible for the government to bring in some legislation that incentivises private landlords to provide 8/10/15/20 years fixed term tenancy contracts? If that's what renters want, why not encourage landlords to provide it instead of pushing them out which is what they are doing now.

    It would seem to be a good option for landlords who buy investment properties, ie, they are assured of long-stay tenants which means they don't have regular turnover of tenants or months when their properties are empty. It seems it would be good for tenants to have certainity about where they live for a fixed number of years.

    If it's not a long-term fixed lease then no incentives apply. It can't be beyond the imagination of the smart people in Revenue or Dept of Finance to come up with some scheme.

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  • Registered Users Posts: 30,666 ✭✭✭✭ listermint

    It's absolutely peak market right now. Small landlords are selling because of that. Huge return. They may then come in a few years and buy back when market falls. It's common sense for someone who knows what theyre doing.

  • Registered Users Posts: 5,368 ✭✭✭ JimmyVik

    This is how they shift the burden of the housing crisis not just onto the private landlord, but then on to the tax payer, and doubly onto the tax payer who is bidding for a house to live in.

    Middle income Ireland being rode for all they are worth yet again.

  • Registered Users Posts: 235 ✭✭ jbv

    There's a theory.

    Behind the Investment Funds are the politicians. Most of the people will qualify for HAP. They own a lot of properties that can be kept unoccupied to keep the rents high because of the lack of supply. The rent is going up, the state is paying them indirectly the high rent through HAP. Small landlords can't afford to keep a place empty for too long, as mortgage needs to be paid. There's no competition from genuine buyers vs investment funds in buying properties.

    Investments funds are the BIG winners.

    Tax payers are the losers here.

  • Registered Users Posts: 893 ✭✭✭ DubCount

    That works fine for larger cities like Dublin, Cork, Limerick and Galway. There is enough of a rental market to make managing an entire apartment block sensible for large "professional" landlords. They get great economies of scale for maintenance etc., and they have a large pool of tenants moving into and out of the area. What happens if you want to rent outside of those areas? What happens if you want to rent a house in stead of an apartment?

    I dont agree with incentives for small landlords either as it happens. Although providing a workable system for dealing with anti-social, non-paying or overholding tenants would be beneficial to the entire market (big and small landlords). With a pool of existing small landlords already in place, I dont get the desire to kill off the sector when anything that replaces them will not fill all the gaps.

  • Registered Users Posts: 14,238 ✭✭✭✭ Bass Reeves

    Everything shows that larger operations have larger operating costs. Smaller landlords carry out a certain amount of work and themselves. Cleaning and painting when a house between tenancies when a house is relet. Minor plumbing and other repairs. Economies of scale never account for that. Where larger operations have an edge is longterm in there willingness to consider breach of contract and following tents( such as students and there parents where they co-sign) for damage. There will be a hullabaloo then as well as all co- tenents may be responsible and end up paying the majority of the costs.

    Slava Ukrainii

  • Registered Users Posts: 2,546 ✭✭✭ C14N

    What is this "everything" that shows this? It doesn't make any logical sense to me. A bigger landlord can run an apartment block and bulk-purchase things like paint, flooring, appliances, furniture etc. and then even have more of the same in reserve for when they need to be replaced. This also means their handyman only needs to know how to fix one type of each of these appliances too. Compared to a landlord with one or two apartments who has to do everything piecemeal, this is a much more efficient system.

    I've rented in a big block from a major landlord and did find this to generally be true. If there was a problem with something, they'd have someone who was on call out quickly to fix it, no questions asked. If I needed something replaced (like my hob in one case) they're up and have it done the next day, it was clear they didn't even have to wait to order one in, and they didn't give any hassle about it because it's a pretty trivial expense at such a big scale. From the experience of both myself and other friends who rented off smaller landlords, you can get a sound one who will try to get the job done quickly, but you can just as easily get someone who will slouch and fight it, and either way they just aren't as quick.

    I don't think that's always true. When I was renting previously from a big operator it was fairly expensive, but so were most things, and it wasn't luxurious. It was well kept enough and reasonably modern, but the fittings and finishings were not high-end. I don't know how everyone around was paying for their own rent but I never thought the place was dominated by council placements or HAP. If you take any given apartment or house for rent, I don't really see how it being operated by a small landlord instead of a big one really makes it any more suitable for the middle of the road tenant.

  • Registered Users Posts: 5,368 ✭✭✭ JimmyVik

    Reits etc dont tend to go for houses, though ive heard a few stories on that happening.

    I reckon they are few and far between though.

    All people will be able to rent are apartments at massive prices.

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  • Registered Users Posts: 5,608 ✭✭✭ Claw Hammer

    Generally the big operators stay out of that level of the market. The high calibre tenants won't have it and it ends up being occupied by troublemakers.

    The big operators are putting all the HAP etc in in building, not spacing them around.

  • Registered Users Posts: 2,546 ✭✭✭ C14N

    As I said, I've called in for plenty of things to get fixed or replaced while I've been renting. It doesn't have to happen that often, the main thing is that when it does happen, it's done quickly and easily, and it has.

    If an industry was providing a service and doing a less effective job at it, I'd be plenty happy to let in more competitors who could do it better. It's a free market, you should have to compete with others, and if they can do it better then they should. I don't believe in giving another provider brownie points because they got there first. If I did I'd never shop in Lidl or Aldi, or get my electricity from anyone but Electric Ireland.

    I don't think taxes should be applied preferentially to anyone, because that distorts the market, but that's an issue with taxes, not with the landlords themselves.

  • Registered Users Posts: 8,032 ✭✭✭ Ray Palmer

    Do you understand the vast majority of rental property is from small landlords?

    How would you define less effective where it is made cheaper via tax to run property maintenance? People have also pointed out vacant property of large orgainsations. Effective for them to keep making money but not in providing property to people. That is not competition

  • Registered Users Posts: 14,238 ✭✭✭✭ Bass Reeves

    There are two element to services, materials and labour. In general large operations may seem to have the advantage but they seldom have costs controls in place until there ability to extract there costs from the market is outside there control. Your assumption that any REIT or rental providers carries a stock of materials is flawed. In general they will have a contractor in place who will service there requirements. In the case of a hob or oven needing replacement they will contact there electrician who will have quoted them a prices for such a job. He will collect the appliance from a supplier and go away and fit it. At the end of the months he will invoice for his time and materials. Some jobs will have set labour fees such as appliances. Some will be on time and materials. However there costs will always be higher than a smaller operator. Its the same in any industry, whether it building, motor repairs or or trades suppliers.

    Yes in the area of retail there are advantages of size. In general this gives you the economy of scale to buy cheap and mass sell products. It grand for selling everyday item. However economies of scale do not apply in most other area's where all larger companies do is add there margins to there costs.

    Post edited by Bass Reeves on

    Slava Ukrainii

  • Registered Users Posts: 747 ✭✭✭ Viscount Aggro

    The problem is, small time landlords who borrowed to buy property to let out.

    In investment rules, thats a no-no. You never borrow money to invest.

  • Registered Users Posts: 2,987 ✭✭✭ haphaphap

    Yes, they do. They are hoovering up properties(including my former house and houses in the same estate) which are suitable for renting to the local authorities on long term leases. If it is suitable, they'll be bidding.

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  • Registered Users Posts: 5,368 ✭✭✭ JimmyVik

    Not as much as apartments though and definitley they wont be hoovering up rural houses to any great extent.