Right Of Child Of EU Citizen To Travel With Parent

Dan133269

Hello everyone, I'd be interested to get an insight on the following situation.

A month ago I was travelling home with my daughter. I'm Irish and live in Belgium. My wife is Russian, my daughter has both Irish and Russian citizenship. Just before the flight I realised my daughter's Irish passport was out of date (my own fault, I should have checked it earlier). I thought we could still fly as she also has her Belgian "certificate of identity" and her Russian passport. I brought the Irish passport with us as well as I thought it might help (it was out of date by a week).

We were refused boarding as both the police officer checking passports (before the flight as we were leaving Schengen area) and the person at the gate said the Belgian "certificate of identity" card is not a "real" ID card according to Belgian law (because we have the foreigner's version apparently) and the Russian passport is not valid for travel as it is non-EU and would only be good enough if we had got a visa for my daughter beforehand.

I argued a little bit that the Belgian ID certificate should suffice as an officially recognised ID card is supposed to be enough for travel. I didn't get anywhere however. What I only realised afterwards is that a child of an EU citizen has the right to travel with their EU citizen parent and so surely the Russian passport should have been enough. I can't find a clear answer to this online though.

Now I have my daughter's new passport on the way but I'm interested to get to the bottom of this one as well.

Any thoughts?

ohnonotgmail

would a russian citizen have the right to enter the destination country without a visa?

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117974775#Comment_117974775

As the dependent child of an EU citizen exercising free movement rights, yes, I think so.

But unless the OP had also brought his daughter's birth cert, I don't see that he had anything with him to show that she was his daughter. That information wouldn't be included in the passport or identity card.

I think the officials were within their rights to refuse to allow travel on the basis of the Belgian identity card. A national identity card is good for entry to the Schengen area if it establishes that the holder is an EU/EEA citizen. But this one, apparently, didn't.

Still, it all seems a bit overbearing. The official may not be bound to accept an expired Irish passport, but it is pretty strong evidence that the child is an EU citizen; what are the chanced that she has renounced her Irish citizenship in the week since the passport expired?

OP doesn't say where he was travelling from. I'd be surprised if he had been refused boarding in Dublin but if he was coming from, say, Moscow it might be a different story.

GerardKeating

In Theory an Irish Citizen should be able to enter the country without a passport, once they can prove they are an Irish Citizen, but getting an Airline or foreign immigration offical to agree to this would be difficult.

And it would be more complex with a child, I have friends, where the parent has a different surname to their child, and they are always asked for extra documentation when travelling internationally. They normally carry birth/marrage certs when travelling.

In theory, one can travel to Ireland with (for example a Filipino passport) with a "Stamp Six" and no need for Entry Visa, but sometimes, good luck finding airline/immigration staff that know this.

Dan133269

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117977820#Comment_117977820

We were travelling (or trying to) from Belgium to Ireland.

The "certificate of identity" does contain information including my daughter's nationality and the names of both parents.

My wife, who is Russian, is able to travel from Belgium to Ireland with me using her Belgian ID card. My daughter, who is Irish, is not able to travel to Ireland with me using her Belgian ID card. The difference seems to be that Belgium has these internal rules which gives a different legal status to different types of ID card. It's ridiculous really.

I'm surprised I can't find more clearly a definitive answer to this question about a child travelling with a parent. There's plenty of info online about a spouse travelling with a partner, but not a child.

Peregrinus

From googling, the reason may be related to the fact that Belgium offers two options for children under 12 - a children's identity card, and an "identity certificate". For anyone over 12, there's only one option - an identity card. So presumably what your wife has is an identity card, but what your daughter has is an identity certificate rather than a children's identity card.

Both the children's identity card and the identity certificate are issued for free, and from googling it's not immediately clear to me why you would prefer one over the other, but this thread may suggest at least one answer to that question - the identity certificate is not acceptable as a travel document, or has limited acceptance.

From the Dept of Justice website, the Irish position seems to be that they will accept a “Residence card of a family member of a Union citizen” (often called a "family residence card") issued under Art 10 of Directive 2004/38/EC (the Free Movement Directive). It may be that your wife's identity card is issued under Art 10 but your daughter's identity certificate is not. The advice on the website is that, if you're unsure if the card you hold was issued under Art 10, you should contact the issuing authority - in this case, your commune in Belgium - for clarification.

Dan133269

Thanks Peregrinus.

The situation with the ID cards is not how you describe, unfortunately. Belgium does have 2 types of ID cards for children under 12, the "real" ID card which is only issued to Belgian citizens, and the "ID certificate" which is given to non-Belgians. There is no choice in the matter. As foreigners, we are not allowed to get a proper ID card. Surely this in itself is discriminatory under EU law?

And they also do charge a fee in the local city hall/commune for issuing these documents.

It all boils down to the illogic of how Belgium and its laws operate. You would have to live here to believe some of the things that go on.

Unfortunately the problem for me now is that I'm intending travelling home at the end of the month with the whole family. My daughter's passport renewal is taking a long time unfortunately and I'm not sure if I will receive it in time. The only option open to me would seem to be to contact the Irish Embassy and see if I can get a visa for my daughter in her Russian passport. I don't know if that's possible however as she's an Irish citizen.

When my daughter was a toddler I intended to travel with her but needed to get her fathers permission for her passport. I had to have a solicitor draft a letter requesting his permission and enclosed documents for him to sign. The document requires both parents signatures.

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117987478#Comment_117987478

are there not 2 types of ID card for those over 12 as well? Belgian citizens get a Belgian Identity Card, Non-belgians get a Belgian Residency Card.

Peregrinus

Then the issue may be that, as your daughter is an Irish citizen she cannot get an identity certificate which is a "residence card of a family member of a Union citizen" under Art 10 of the Free Movement Directive, because Belgium can only issue these to someone who is not an EU/EEA citizen and your daughter, of course, is. Your wife doesn't have this problem.

I sympathise with your problem. A few years ago I stupidly let my own Irish passport lapse and had to travel to Ireland on my Australian passport which, fortunately, wasn't a problem because Australian citizens don't need visas but, still, it could have been awkward. I agree that your best course is to contact the embassy and explain the situation. This isn't a life or death case, but your daughter is an Irish citizen and, really, it should be possible to sort something out in the space of a month. You will not be popular at home if the trip has to be delayed.

GerardKeating

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117987478#Comment_117987478

Issueing different ID cards to citizens and non-citizens would not be discrimination, otherwise you could argue that them not giving you a Belgium passport was discrimination...

Dan133269

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117987540#Comment_117987540

Apparently there are at least 9 different types of ID card for an adult in Belgium!

Dan133269

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117987601#Comment_117987601

Yes maybe that's the crux of it, but it's a very illogical conclusion, a non-EU citizen getting more favourable treatment than an EU citizen within an EU Member State.

Dan133269

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117987730#Comment_117987730

The point is that the different types of ID cards give different uses. The "real" Belgian ID card allows the person to use it for travel purposes. The foreigners version my daughter has does not allow her to use it for travelling. This is because Belgium purposefully gives legal status to the first type but not the second.

A passport application would be different, you can only get it if you have actual citizenship.

It seems the multi-quote function on boards has now gone.

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117988353#Comment_117988353

Presumably because foreigners would be travelling on their own passport. which seems reasonable.

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117988338#Comment_117988338

Well, of course, your daughter as an EU citizen is entitled to equally (or more) favourable treatment. The problem is not that your daughter has more limited rights; it's that your wife has her paperwork in order to exercise her rights (as a non-citizen dependant of an EU citizen) but your daughter does not have her paperwork in order to exercise her equally extensive rights (as an EU citizen).

Spook_ie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058211620/right-of-child-of-eu-citizen-to-travel-with-parent

Doesn't travel outside the Schengen area requires a passport not an ID card? Certainly the DFA state that a residence card is insufficient

Please note that Ireland is not in the Schengen Area and a Schengen visa or Belgian residence card (titre de sejour/ verblijfstitel / aufenthaltstitel) cannot be used to travel to Ireland.

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117991264#Comment_117991264

But the child has a passport - a Russian passport. What she needs in addition to this is evidence of her right to enter Ireland without a visa. A residence card of a family member of a Union citizen issued by Belgium (or any other country) would suffice, but she can't get one of those because they can only be issued to non-EU citizens and, of course, as well as being a Russian citizen she is an EU citizen.

The child's mother, not being an EU citizen, can use her Belgian-issued residence card to establish her right to enter Ireland.

Spook_ie

But the mother can't travel on the ID card except to Schengen area countries or can she?

Dan133269

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117994562#Comment_117994562

Yes, my wife can travel to Ireland with me using her Belgian ID card. Her ID card is something along the lines of "ID card of a non-EU citizen with permanent residency in Belgium as a family member of an EU citizen"

Spook_ie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118004866#Comment_118004866

Well she's probably escaped the scrutiny of border control

Please note that Ireland is not in the Schengen Area and a Schengen visa or Belgian residence card (titre de sejour/ verblijfstitel / aufenthaltstitel) cannot be used to travel to Ireland.

Dan133269

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118005152#Comment_118005152

Jesus I almost regret starting the thread at this stage.

See here:https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/travel/entry-exit/non-eu-family/index_en.htm#residence-card-yes-schengen-to-non-schengen-1

"Your residence card issued by a Schengen country and you are travelling to a non-Schengen country

• You do not need a visa if you have a residence card as an EU national family member issued by an EU country other than the country your EU spouse / partner is a national of. You must either be travelling together with your EU spouse / partner or you are joining them in the non-Schengen country

If you have a residence card as an EU national family member and you are not accompanying or joining your EU spouse / partner in the non-Schengen country, you must apply for a visa to enter that country."

Spook_ie

Hello it says you CANNOT use a Belgian residence card to travel on to a non Schengen country, nothing to do with visas, so was she travelling on a passport or on the ID card?

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118041369#Comment_118041369

on their ID card. their passport was expired.