Would you ever disown your kids?

maeve99

I was watching a TED talk by Sue Klebold, the mother of one of the Columbine shooters. She was basically taking about how her grief as a parent was totally different from all the others. Not only did she lose a son, but he was also the perpetrator. She constantly felt blamed by friends, parents of victims, and strangers.

It made me think, if your kid did something like that, would you ever stop loving them? It sounds abhorrent to most, but I think in cases where your children commit rape, mass murder, terrorism etc... no one would fault you for forgetting about them. Some people would disown their kids for something as silly as being gay but being a murderer would merit it in my opinion.

Jequ0n

I don’t think this is something people can answer unless they have been in a situation like that.

From a practical perspective I can’t see why you wouldn’t take someone out of your will if chances were high they’d never be released because they exhausted all avenues.

My mother used to say kids are like farts. You can just about stand your own.

Potential-Monke

Not having kids means I can easily say this, but yes, I would disown. I would also look at myself and see if I did anything that would make them behave this way, but that's self destruction 101 so I'd probably get over it quick. I would probably disown a sibling if they did it, can't be much different than that!

Couldn't possibly know. It seems loving parents will put up with a massive amount. There are the cases where the parents just have to cut ties with their child if the latter's behaviour becomes too destructive (as in, fearing for their safety) but that's not really disowning.

Strumms

Not a parent either but...

if a kid of mine killed, raped, committed a massive fraud or anything then no return from that.

The answer's really obvious when you're not a parent, isn't it? Hypothetical children are great - you can make up all and any scenarios and feelings with complete impunity. Actual children are a different matter altogether.

Would I disown or cut off my one and only for killing or raping? Maybe, maybe not, I can't say for certain. For a massive fraud? If it was against me, I might. If it was anyone else, probably not. For terrorism? What is terrorism, exactly?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117946923#Comment_117946923

This is something I'd have to consider. Even if it's your own child, it's a bit pointless leaving it to someone who can't make any use of it. Who in Ireland never gets released, though?

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Not a parent, don't know.

For me, a lot of it world depend on the motives for committing the crime and whether or not there was any remorse.

Shao Kahn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117946923#Comment_117946923

So if they got a lenient sentence, and were out of prison after say 15-20 years for murder, you'd consider including them in your will?

I'm not sure what money has to do with anything tbh.

If my kids did what the columbine killers did, or what those two boys did to Ana Kriegel a few years ago - nope sorry they're off my radar for keeps. There's just too many good decent people in the world, who have zero inclination to harm other people like that. Why would you waste your energy with people who have that sort of evilness in their make-up?

Side-note: I actually believe in the death penalty for people who have committed these horrendous crimes. Despite their horrible crimes, I actually think it is inhumane to lock someone up for the rest of their life with no prospect of ever being released. We wouldn't lock a dangerous animal in a cage for the rest of it's life after it kills someone, we would do the humane thing and end it's life if it couldn't be released safely.

But then we are a strange creature really, we treat animals better at the end of their life with euthanasia - but won't euthanize our sweet old granny who is suffering terribly at the end of her life. Very odd illogical way we operate in many facets of society. We are not as civilized as we often consider ourselves to be in many respects.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Kind of odd that you agree with the death penalty but then pine for a civilised society, by that's a different discussion

Pawwed Rig

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117947944#Comment_117947944

It is a lot different. It is the equivalent to hacking off one of your limbs.

Parents will often look for any reason to justify and defend horrific acts by their children as turning against them is just not part of our DNA.

This excludes religious people for some reason who often seem to have their religion as a higher priority than their family

Jequ0n

@Shao Kahn

As far as I know I don’t have any children, so I can only approach this from a theoretical perspective.

The examples you list would not be a reason to exclude them from my will, but I can accept if others feel this way.

seamus

As said above, it's really easy to be certain about your answer when you have no kids.

Most crimes are contextual, and even the worst crimes have an explanation of sorts. People who engage in the most brutal crimes are clearly very broken mentally.

As the OP states, many parents of the worst killers carry their own guilt that they failed to notice their childs' issues, or that they caused them in the first place.

As for the will, well my hope is that I'll have spent nearly everything before I shuffle off, and everything else will be divided equally no matter what situation my kids are in at the time. "Disowning" doesn't even come into it.

I don't believe a parent can stop loving their child.

You can hate what they did, and maybe don't see/speak to them, but that would probably be because of other people's reactions more than your own feelings.

Shao Kahn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117948161#Comment_117948161

Depends on your perspective though doesn't it?

Like for example, when someone commits a horrible crime and then commits suicide afterwards, there by subverting the justice system. What do you often hear people say? "Oh, death is too good for them. They should be rotting in a prison cell for the rest of their life!"

So, when we are angry and want to exact the maximum cruelty on someone for committing a horrendous crime, many so-called "civilized" people don't think of the death sentence in their mind. The worst thing they can imagine doing, is to have someone "rot in a prison cell" for the rest of their life. But then they contradict themselves by paying lip-service to the death penalty being more cruel.

Just to be clear - I think potentially either punishment could be deemed an act of cruelty, depending on the circumstances involved. Like lynchings for example, were some of the cruelest acts ever committed in history.

But the idea that rotting in a prison cell for maybe 60 or 70 years, with no prospect of being released, as an act of mercy by people who deem themselves to be of impeccable morality and judgement? But yet their subconscious mind so easily displays the holes in their own logic? Grade A nonsense. (imho)

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Oh, I'm not saying life imprisonment is civilised either.

No one is impeccable morally, but someone has to make the decision, but the decision is made in accordance with law based on the will of the people.

Punishment, on the other hand....

seamus

@Shao Kahn wrote:

Like for example, when someone commits a horrible crime and then commits suicide afterwards, there by subverting the justice system. What do you often hear people say? "Oh, death is too good for them. They should be rotting in a prison cell for the rest of their life!"

Effectively two sides of the same coin. People who don't understand the purpose of the justice system, or have a skewed understanding of it.

If you believe the purpose of putting someone in jail is getting revenge on them for their crimes, then it opens a whole host of other questions. Not least the question of why do we bother releasing anyone? If you're getting revenge on a burglar for robbing houses, and then releasing them again to commit the same crimes, then what are you really doing? Seems like an excuse to just be cruel.

There is a deterrent aspect to jail sentences, but for those actually sentenced the purpose of the sentence is punishment - to give sufficient time for the individual to learn the error of their ways and better themselves, while also protecting society from them while they do so.

Its effectiveness is a matter for debate, but that's down to a number of factors, not least the above misunderstanding that some people expect to be able to throw offenders in jail, do nothing to help them move on, and then complain when they re-offend. But nevertheless, purpose of prison is not revenge. It is punishment. And punishment is a negative consequence you apply to someone in the hope that they will correct their behaviour afterwards.

Committing suicide while in jail or awaiting trial is not "subverting" the justice system. The purpose of the justice system is to establish truth. The death of the offender may make that a little more difficult, but it doesn't prevent justice being done. Remember that "justice" is not achieving eye-for-eye revenge, "justice" is having the truth established, and any punishments applied to living offenders. Someone who is dead has not escaped justice.

I quite enjoyed the Amanda Knox interview on Joe Rogan this week. Near the end of the interview she was talking about some of the other inmates she encountered in her time in prison. One of them was a woman who dumped her own new born baby into the trash can and left it to die.

How she talked about that woman with empathy and the reality of it was quite moving. It was a talk about how criminals are too easily forgotten and "disowned" - when in fact there is real humanity lost there. The horror of the crime allows the general joe public to forget the real person behind it and their real circumstance. Some people see that crime - as horrific as it obviously is - and that is all the information they feel they need.

I think people's opinions on the Justice and punitive systems are a really powerful window into how their morality and ethics works. You very quickly find out where people are at - or even where you yourself are at - when you discuss with them what they think prison and justice are "for". Is it to make the criminal suffer? Is it to protect society from them? Is it rehabilitation? Is it retribution? Is it to deter other criminals from the same crime? Is it a mix of all of the above in some proportion?

A useful thought experiment to play with introspection on this is to imagine the worst common crime you can. Whatever that is for you. For many people it is the sexual abuse of children. But each of us has our own. A crime that your initial gut is saying "Let them get locked up for life and rot there!".

Then imagine that after years of study it turns out that the best system to reduce recidivism and to maximise deterrents and rehabilitation and all of the above turns out to be 3 years in prison. Really explore what your guy reaction to that would be. Would you feel "That is great finally we have an answer on the best way forward to increase well being across the board" or would you feel "Hell no - what that criminal did is horrific and they deserve to suffer and be locked away for much much longer than that!!!!".

Either reaction - or any other reaction - likely says a lot about you. It can be illuminating.

A similar example is the "sex offender registries" around the world. A lot of the public simply feel that sex offenders should be on such a list and they deserve to be. But in some areas these appear like they might be doing much more harm than good. But some people do not care. They still want people to suffer being on such a list. They are more interested in that than doing what is actually best for everyone.

So would I disown my kids in the face of a horrendous crime? I absolutely do not know - context is literally everything - but I have my doubts I would do any such thing. Rather I would be interested in empathy and understanding and wondering what part I can play in their rehabilitation. I do not think - as others have suggested above - that I would lose too much time worrying what it was I did wrong as a parent. I know where I come down on the "nature vs. nurture" debate when it comes to parenting - and it is a place that results in me recognising all my responsibilities and roles as a parent without holding myself account to failures that may emerge regardless from my process.

mohawk

I honestly can’t imagine ever disowning my child. I could disown any other family such as a sibling, but my child I just can’t imagine it. Now I can’t see him doing anything that would lead to me disowning him. If he did something really terrible then I think it would definitely damage our relationship.

I don’t understand how some parents such as fundamentalist religious parents can put their beliefs before their families.

Wanderer78

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058210679/would-you-ever-disown-your-kids

it would definitely cause me to do some deep soul searching, of where i went wrong, and why i didnt spot my childs struggles with life, and help them. a truly awful place for a parent

Sunny Disposition

It's one thing saying you would disown imaginary kids, but I reckon disowning actual ones would be close to impossible. In one sense your kids are an extension of yourself, they have the genes of yourself and your partner, so I think it's very rare to be disowned. You might never forgive them, but parents won't and can't disown kids.

maeve99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117948658#Comment_117948658

I don't get this personally. If you never forgive your kids, isn't that effectively disowning them?

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117946977#Comment_117946977

To be fair, she was speaking from personal experience which might not be the same for everyone 😋

Sunny Disposition

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117948682#Comment_117948682

No, you might stay angry with them, it might damage your relationship, but doesn't mean they would be cut off completely.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117948163#Comment_117948163

You really need to say "some parents" not just parents. :)

There's nothing to say parents or children will actually like each other. Same with siblings. Or even feel a bond. Many do, some don't.

Jequ0n

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117948747#Comment_117948747

But you are assuming that every parent loves their child unconditionally. Not everyone does, or even loves them at all.

Gregor Samsa

Someone in my extended family killed someone, pleaded guilty to manslaughter and went to prison for it. They weren't disowned by anyone - family, friends, neighbours, co-workers. No one excused what they did at all, and everyone fully recognised that they deserved their punishment and maybe even more. But they weren't disowned. It's all well and good discussing the hypotheticals, but from personal experience I can safely say that the reality is much, much more complex than this thread will ever realise.

My personal opinion is that in reality, most people who have a healthy relationship with their children to begin with won't disown their kids unless they continually do abhorrent or damaging things and show no signs at all of redemption despite every effort to help them.

Sunny Disposition

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058210679/would-you-ever-disown-your-kids

What that woman has gone through must be so hard, not only has she lost her son but any positive memories are all gone too, probably a lifetime of questioning herself and devastation.

El Gato De Negocios

I've two kids and I cannot think of anything they could do that would drive me to disown them. Even with the most abhorrent crimes I can come up with, I don't think I could do it, my gut reaction would be to support them and try to understand why they did what they've done and to try to help them as best I could.

Hyperbollix

Like everything, it's all down to the individuals involved.

Some people wouldn't disown one of their kids no more than they would disown their own right hand. It just isn't in their ability to do it.

Other parents, let them be very loving and supportive, would have a more detached attitude and I'm sure if they crime/betrayal/whatever was serious enough, they would be more than capable of cutting them off forever.