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To be, or not to be (given a CID)…

  • #1
    Registered Users Posts: 173 ✭✭ Ditzie


    1. Does seniority apply when looking for a CID? i.e if there is a teacher on the same hours for longer, does it have to be offered to them first?

    2. If you have been given a CID, can you cover jobshare hours?

    Apologies for the long winded post, but I can’t find clarity on this anywhere and my mind is melted.

    This is my 4th year in a school on an RPT contract. I was covering jobshare hours in year 1 and 2, however last year had 11 part-time resource hours (arising from Covid).

    There are three teachers covering jobshare hours who also had these hours last year; one (year 6), myself (year 4) and one (year 3). Last year when I asked about a CID, I was told I was entitled to a 22hr one, however it would have to be offered to the teacher ahead of me (and rejected) before it could be awarded to me.

    This year I have 11 part time resource hours that seem to be my own. I again went to the principal and asked about a CID… to be told there will be no CIDs issued this year.

    Basically, if I am entitled to a CID, does seniority apply? i.e if I’m entitled to one, does it have to be offered to the teacher there 6 years first and rejected?

    Similarly, does the teacher there 3 years have to wait until it’s offered to both of us?

    I was also told last year that if I was awarded CID I would be redeployed, as I could not cover my usual jobshare hours and there would be no hours for me. Can you cover jobshare hours when you have a CID? (solely for the duration of that jobshare obviously)

    I went to my union last year only to be told to speak to the principal about it.

    I’d really appreciate it if anyone could help - it’s a minefield!



  • The teacher with the most service is offered additional hours up to 22 hours and the sequence continues. Look for circular on the scheduling of posts circular - don't know the number. To award a CID, there has to be hours available in the next academic year and subject need.

    My advice - get all your contracts together - scan them and email your union rep - get them to work it out - you pay their wages - don't accept the answer to go to the principal. CID and contracts are a minefield which they are trained for. Best of luck with your case.

  • It’s been a while since any of this has applied to me, but my understanding of it is this:

    The only way you can be ‘entitled’ to a CID is if you have the same contract for two years in a row (it was four years when it applied to me) and then, you’re entitled to a CID for the number of hours you had in your second year of the contract, whether that was 6 or 22 or anything in between. That much has nothing to do with seniority. You’re either entitled to it or you’re not.

    Now, where seniority does come in is once you have a CID on less than 22 hours, you’re entitled to have those increased, up to 22, if hours are available in your subject, depending on seniority (but again here, I would think ‘seniority’ means whoever has a CID longest, not whoever is there longest). I would think that this only applies to subjects you’re qualified to teach, not necessarily subjects you’re not qualified to teach but sometimes end up teaching.

    Just to be clear, I am not to be taken as an expert on this, but that is my understanding of the situation.

    Answers to your questions, based on my understanding:

    1. No.
    2. Probably.

  • Your principal is a chancer. There's no such thing as seniority for CIDs. Your eligibility for a CID (or any other teacher in the school) is based on the individual contracts you have had while working there. It doesn't mean that you have to wait until other people are offered a CID until you can be offered one.

    What RealJohn said above about being offered the extra hours is correct, and it applies to people who are on CIDs that are not on full hours, that's where seniority kicks in.

    However there is no quota for CIDs, if there are 10 teachers who have completed 2 years in a school on RPT contracts and meet the requirements then all 10 can be offered CIDs, and being offered a CID is not dependent on someone else rejecting it.

    Go back to your union, do not allow them to fob you off, if you do not get any satisfaction from the local rep for your county branch, go to the area rep and explain your situation to them and also tell them you were fobbed off. This is what you pay your union subscription for, and CID queries are bread and butter stuff.

    This is the circular that covers all CID related entitlements.

    According to a FAQ on the TUI website, jobshare hours are not eligible for CID as they are fixed purpose so my reading of it is that you would not be eligible for CID based on the hours you had in Year 1 and 2. However if the resource hours you had in Year 3 and this year were your own, then those hours are eligible unless there was a specific objective ground written into your contract last year and this year saying they were ineligible.

    Also, to further compound the fact that your principal is a chancer, you do not have to be redeployed if you get a CID. Assuming there are no objective grounds in your contract in Year 3 and this year, you could be eligible for an 11 hour CID based on the resource hours you held which are yours. There is nothing to stop the principal having you teach your 11 hour CID next year and also do 11 hours jobshare for which you would have a separate contract. If that teacher returns to full hours of course you would lose the 11 hours jobshare but it wouldn't affect the CID. Personally I think that the principal is scaremongering so you won't push for the CID by suggesting you'll have to leave the school. Given that there are teachers in there for 4 and 6 years being told they are not eligible also suggests a certain level of shadiness.

    Get your paperwork in order and get back on to your union asap and do not take no for an answer.

    From the TUI website:

    How do I qualify for a CID under the new arrangements?

    (i)                 To qualify for a CID you must have up to date registration with the Teaching Council and be qualified to teach in your sector.

    (ii)               You must have in excess of two years continuous service with the same employer, on one or more fixed term/fixed purpose contracts.

    (iii)             The post must be viable for at least a full school year and come from the allocation.

    (iv)             In the qualifying year, at least some of the hours held must be free from an ‘objective ground’ for not awarding a CID.

    What is an ‘objective ground’?

    If all of the hours that a teacher holds in their qualifying year contain what is known as an ‘objective ground’ they will not receive a CID. Objective grounds apply if the hours are of a legitimate fixed purpose nature i.e. covering for a teacher on maternity leave, sick leave or job share OR if there is a legitimate reason as to why the post is not viable in the employment (school/scheme) for at least a full school year.

    The teacher’s contract must include a statement detailing the specific objective ground(s).

    A generic objective ground (e.g. the post is dependent on funding) is not acceptable.

    Please note, if a teacher holds even one hour that is free from an objective ground in their qualifying year, they will get a CID for all hours worked in the qualifying year.

    Under CL 24/15, hours covering for a teacher on career break or secondment are no longer considered to be objective grounds for not awarding a CID.

  • Thanks to all who’ve responded - I really appreciate you taking the time to do so! I’ve contacted the union again, so hopefully I can get it over the line this year.

    @rainbowtrout according to the department we are overquota at the minute by one teacher (on paper anyway), so I think that’s where the threat of redeployment is coming from, although we undoubtedly need everyone we have.

  • That might be the case, but doesn't necessarily mean you will be the one redeployed. Even if you were redeployed (and I understand you might not want to be), you have the security of a CID, which is what your principal doesn't want you to have. Anything could happen before the end of the year - a teacher could leave, go on career break, go on job share, retire which makes hours available in the school.

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  • Yeah, you’re entitled to the CID regardless (if you’re entitled to it at all, which seems to be the case) so you’re better off having it than not. If they say that they have to redeploy you, you have rights there too regarding how far they can move you, unless you do it willingly.

    If you’re entitled to the CID, I’d say make sure you get it and then worry about redeployment. They’re unlikely to redeploy you during the school year anyway.

  • Ditzie, did you sign an appointment or a reappointment form? If so there is a section on that that details your contract type and also where your hours originate from. If you are department paid email payroll directly and ask for that information. Once you get that information put it up here and I will hopefully be able to advise you.

  • There's some sound advice on this thread, OP, but in particular if you are not getting the answers you want from the Principal you need to contact either the ASTI or the TUI. They'll make it clear what your entitlements are, both as regards a CID and as regards additional hours. As well as that, they'll have the know-how and the time and headspace to handle the Principal and the system on your behalf.

  • Oops, missed this post. You've done the right thing contacting the union. Best of luck with it.