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If the DUP collapse Stormont...

  • 10-09-2021 2:40pm
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 1,855 ✭✭✭ Sunny Disposition


    isn't it just a hop, skip and a jump to a United Ireland? It seems to me like a hugely risky thing for them to do, massively risky. Not only will they only have a tiny influence in the House of Commons, but there is potential for far greater alientation across all sides, destabilising NI potentially.

    I think it's incredible to think they would do it, it has worked for SF to an extent in the past, but SF don't need NI to be functional. It's better for them if it's not, but if the State is failing how can one argue for the constitutional status quo to remain?

    Could the British Government quickly use the opportunity to increase the Republic's role and off load its own obligations?



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Comments

  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 88,928 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Capt'n Midnight


    The NDNA allows for a 24 week gap to new elections if Stormont is collapsed, leaving ministers in a caretaker role. So pulling the plug would only change the date of the next election by a few weeks.

    On the other hand if there's a return to direct rule a border poll would be a great way to distract the media from whatever the Tories are up to / failing at. And even though the Tories are a party of backstabbers they won't forget that DUP undermined Theresa May.

    Plus dropping the subvention would mean an extra £11Bn a year for the NHS.


    There'll be a fudge but there'll be a price to pay later.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 85 ✭✭ FullyComp



    All the people in Northern Ireland are entitled to Irish citizenship. The Irish state cannot ignore the wishes of a million of it's citizens?


    For all the people saying they should just accept the NI Protocol, if the protocol negotiations had gone the other way and we had a hard border now. Would we just accept it? Of course not, so why would they?



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  • Subscribers Posts: 36,062 ✭✭✭✭ sydthebeat


    Donaldson inference of a threat of a return of unionist violence will not go down well with moderate unionists, so I think he may find himself cut adrift if another election is called up north.

    They are slipping in all polls, behind UUP and TUV in the most recent one.

    https://twitter.com/LucidTalk/status/1431632836428189698?s=19



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,283 ✭✭✭✭ markodaly


    As I have mentioned before, partition was inevitable. People just need to accept that there was going to be no magical UI back in 1916 or 1921.


    You say partition was the result of the threat of terrorism by Unionists, yet Ireland won its war of independence by the same means and wanted to subjugate northern unionists, to a country dominated by Nationalists and the Catholic church. Remember the term, Home Rule is Rome Rule? They weren't wrong.

    I find a lot of this willy-waving about history very much hypocritical.

    "The Unionists treated nationalists badly, so we wanted a UI so we can be in the majority and treat the Unionists badly instead"



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,283 ✭✭✭✭ markodaly


    It's the same debate.

    You talk of democracy, but you wanted the whole of Ireland to be one country, including Northern Unionists who didn't.

    By that letter, Ireland was a functioning democracy after the act of Union 1801.



  • Registered Users Posts: 22,344 ✭✭✭✭ Dyr


    You mean like the Irish goverments inference of a threat that there would be trouble at the border? Sauce for the goose

    You'd think it would be impossible NOT to be able to claim the moral high ground against Unionism but our clowns somehow managed it.



  • Subscribers Posts: 36,062 ✭✭✭✭ sydthebeat


    these two things are not the same

    FF/FG do not have an uncomfortable recent historical connection to an armed nationalist militia , unlike the DUP and their cosy connections to the UVF and UDA



  • Registered Users Posts: 22,344 ✭✭✭✭ Dyr


    They very much are, FFFG spent decades saying that violence was completely unacceptable regardless of circumstances and then suddenly softened their cough once it suited their book. Either violence is unacceptable regardless of the situation or it ain't. you can't play both sides of the fence like the DUP do and then pretend to be outraged.


    I see our boy in Brussels is now kite flying the softening of the EUs position on the border. Funny that Berlin has a bigger say in our future Border than Dublin but its a price we're happy to pay as good Europeans. 😂




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  • Subscribers Posts: 36,062 ✭✭✭✭ sydthebeat


    Do you honestly think that tomorrow FF!/FG could instigate any violence in Northern Ireland through communications to a sectarian group? The DUP certainly can.

    So again, these two things are not the same.



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 32,889 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Seth Brundle


    The Irish government did not make a threat as is frequently claimed by some.

    They simply explained that if there was a hard economic border then this would would require customs posts wvich need to be protected by police and probably the military. Having a physical police and military infrastructure would attract violence from those opposed to it.

    These are realities based on history and not threats. The allegation if it being threatening was only there to suit a pro-border agenda.



  • Registered Users Posts: 21,747 ✭✭✭✭ blanch152


    A rock of sense. The end of the DUP does not mean the end of unionism. In fact, unionism may come back into its own. Beattie is being very clever in how he is positioning the UUP as a modern voice within unionism.



  • Registered Users Posts: 85 ✭✭ FullyComp



    Sorry in a UI they're as much citizens as anyone else. We can't swap one sectarian government for another



  • Registered Users Posts: 10,107 ✭✭✭✭ Junkyard Tom


    Absolutely, I've not suggested otherwise. In fact I'd view a UI as a great opportunity to further secularise Ireland, introduce universal healthcare and so on.

    Partition was effectively conservative counter-revolutionaries seizing power in the north and south. The south has largely moved on but the rump end of the Protestant Ascendancy remains stubbornly regressive in the north. Unification would be the death-knell of belligerent unionism as its reason for existence will be gone.



  • Registered Users Posts: 301 ✭✭ batman75


    It looks to me like the DUP are dying a long slow death since Peter Robinson left. Under he and Paisley they were a force to be reckoned with. Now they are increasingly out of touch. DUP supported Brexit so they lost any right to cry about it's consequences. Ironically I see Brexit as the first step on the road to a United Ireland. Boris doesn't give a toss about the six counties. The Queen is entering her final year/s. Once she dies the monarchy in Britain won't have the same popular support again.

    The hardline Unionists are now loyal to a country that doesn't want them and a monarchy system which is going to fade in terms of spotlight and popularity. They know that the central pillars of their beliefs are collapsing around them and understandably they are scared to death. The threat of street violence is one last desperate throw of the dice to affect some kind of influence regarding the fallout from Brexit.

    An interesting long term question is, can a united Ireland have a place for those who pledge allegiance to Britain and the Queen. Can a united Ireland be a nation in which they can feel welcome?



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,027 ✭✭✭ 10000maniacs


    Sinn Fein's best advice is not to force a united Ireland, it will happen sooner rather than later anyway.

    In the words of Leon Hayward

    Don't push it, don't force it

    Let it happen naturally

    It will surely happen

    As it was meant to be.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 11,283 ✭✭✭✭ markodaly


    Do people not forget that for a very very brief period of time, Ireland was united? Stormont then voted the day after the Free State was established to opt-out, and 'rejoin' the UK.


    I find the whole argument about partition hypocritical.

    If Irish people wanted to run their own affairs from their own parliament in Dublin, fine. But then Unionists (who don't identify as Irish) in the North should have also been afforded the right to decide their own future. Essentially there are those who argue about partition but what they are really saying is that to hell or high water, regardless of what they wanted, Northern Unionists should have joined the Free State regardless of their opinions on the matter.

    Sounds like the same thing to me, as what Britain did in 1801 with the act of Union.



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