Leaving Cert 2021 Grade inflation

Treppen

Personally I blame the teachers .

They should be living down to their reputation as being useless lazy civil servants, but instead they go and ruin it all and educate their students to an even higher standard.

Is there any mechanism for getting rid of these good teachers?

Cut their wages further and kick them into private sector I say.

Anne_Widdecombe

It's well established at this stage that the Leaving Certificate of today is a very different beast to what we had 10-20 years ago.

It has been dumbed down.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117846337#Comment_117846337

That's even without taking into account that whole "having to walk to school in your bare feet" aspect.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ue7wM0QC5LE

poppers

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058207309/leaving-cert-2021-grade-inflation

I blame the teachers aswell they gave out most of the grades this year and last year. Wait until next year when kids have to sit the exams themselves

joseywhales

It seems a bit pointless when the teachers assign grades. "And this year's winner of my favourite student is..." I suppose it reflects the workplace in that brown nosing your teacher/boss will actually reward you. But gone is the satisfaction of aceing the lc in a subject where you despised the teacher.

twinytwo

2020/2021 will always be know as the ones that never sat the tests. It will go against them later in life.

If they had any chops they would have sat the exam - put like a lot of people today they took the easy way out

2011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058207309/leaving-cert-2021-grade-inflation

There is no mechanism for getting rid of bad teachers never mind the good ones!

You seem to suggest that somehow students have been educated to a higher standard this year than previous years, I see no evidence to support this.

In my opinion teachers responded well to the challanges that covid presented but this has resulted in some grade inflation. Personally I don't think inflated grades is a big deal.

2011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117848570#Comment_117848570

This is not the case in many cases. I know many that sat the 2021 leaving cert, my own daughter included.

greenpilot

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117848570#Comment_117848570

Well that's an idotic statement. My daughter, along with every student in her year, apart from 6, sat their exam. They spent a full two years studying their asses off and they were dammed if they were giving that merit away by allowing the teachers to take control. This is the story across the country too, from what I gather. Certainly in Mayo and Roscommon. So, she sat her exam in all subjects and got 590 points.

Some kids chose the "safer option", but the ones that studied hard sat the exam.

Economics101

I see that Ross O'Carroll Kelly has passed his Leaving. Definitive proof of grade inflation.

More seriously though if grades are generally inflated by x%, then presumably Points scores for Third level courses will rise by about the same proportion. What I don't get is the endless media and political nonsense about students being "deprived" because of higher points requirements. If it's largely due to higher grades(=higher individual points) it's a bit like getting a 10% wage increase if inflation is also 10%: you real income is the same

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117848570#Comment_117848570

Erm, I did my leaving cert in 2010. Similarly it was stated that it was dumbed down. I did a pretty poor leaving cert overall. Did great in college which is also supposedly extraordinarily dumbed down.

I've never been out of work since I finished college and I'm in a highly technical job that I love. The leaving cert never worked for or against me beyond getting me into college. So I really can't see it mattering a jot in long run.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058207309/leaving-cert-2021-grade-inflation

The teachers gave out the grades this year, and last year. You will see a grades deflation as soon as the students have to sit real exams again.

You are deluding yourself if you genuinely believe these high grades reflect better educated students.

Treppen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117846337#Comment_117846337

In what way has it been dumbed down. can you give an example to back up that statement?

Treppen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117848355#Comment_117848355

Not true, the students could still sit the exam in the despised teacher's subject.

Treppen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117848821#Comment_117848821

I suppose the typical few on 625 points would walk into medicine on merit. Whereas this year there might be a larger cohort who get the 625... and even at that a lottery will be implemented for all those 625ers.

Plus if I were one of those that lost out due to lottery then it's a no brainer to wait till next year when there's no grade inflation.

....Unless they still offer the "simplified" leaving cert over the next couple of years and gradually phase out the grade inflation. So the high achievers might all just be knocked back due to a year of waiting.

Treppen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117849323#Comment_117849323

Agreed...Same old "youth of today" story, I did mine early nineties and it was claimed to be dumbed down by the previous decade.

People often forget though that the sole purpose of the leaving cert is not to facilitate CAO entry to college.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058207309/leaving-cert-2021-grade-inflation

You should pay more attention when you read the teachers forum. There are recent posts there that mention how Project Maths is so large, it cannot be taught properly in the time allocated to it. Also, the honours Irish essay has gone from very specific, niche topics to very vague that the student could use any rote learned essay to fit the title.

Since you're so quick for praise, I assume you also as quick in criticizing third-level staff for our universities being in free-fall down the rankings?

KaneToad

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058207309/leaving-cert-2021-grade-inflation

Teachers aren't civil servants.

One thing that's overlooked is the serious advantage youngsters have today compared to years ago is internet access. Things like Kahn Academy and YouTube are fantastic resources in explaining concepts in a way that can't be done on a whiteboard or a book. If a student does not grasp something during class, they always have the option of researching it online where chances are it is explained using videos. Then having past papers and solutions to hand as well.

With so much resources at their disposable as well, it's only natural results are getting better.

In fairness, teachers are incorporating these resources more into the classroom as well whereas years ago it was not possible. Especially the newer generation of teachers. That's bound to help as well.

In the long run, it makes very little difference, going to college is a different ball game getting into a particular college course is one thing but staying there and passion the course of the exams is another.

The type of student who does medician is still going to be the same as the ones doing it 30 years ago the same as any student doing any physics, maths, science, heavy course.

Treppen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117851042#Comment_117851042

You do realise Sal Khan explains everything on a whiteboard !

Btw have you've ever tried giving a student a youtube video to grasp a concept do you think they just magically know it by them watching it.

And getting a student to go home and "research it online...."

Education mostly takes place because of the interaction between the teacher and student, that's the most powerful resource.

Treppen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117850935#Comment_117850935

I'm very well aware of the "Project Maths" course as I teach it, but I'm sure you'll keep on mansplaning to us teachers what it involves. The issue with the course length is not "recent" either, it has been flagged since it was introduced and choices for topics removed.

I don't just linger around the teacher's forum pretending I'm a teacher you know...

Nice try setting up a strawman argument with 3rd level rankings though.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117859383#Comment_117859383

Laughable stuff. Are you seriously going to discount the availability of these extra resources as a reason for improving grades and helping the students understand the topics more in depth? I didn't say getting a student to research online. I'm saying if the student themselves feel under-prepared or don't fully understand something covered in class, they can spend their own time researching and improving via the Internet.

Of course YouTube videos help understand and if the students have more opportunity to watch more videos the better . I hope I don't have to tell you how important the visual aspect of learning is. And to some more impactful than to others.

It's surprising you seem to be unaware of students who self-study a subject and manage to achieve top marks without a full time teacher.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117859401#Comment_117859401

Then you should know one of the complaints about the new Maths course it is not great in having the student actually understand the maths concepts. This leads to knock-on effects in Third Level where students are less prepared for maths in science and technology courses.

Just as I thought. Quick to praise but shy away when it comes to any questioning if there are any falling standards.

ireallydontknow

I don't agree with OP but these stats give a sense of just how massive the inflation is.

Year: 2019 ... 2021

625: 0.4% ... 2.3%

550+: 5.6% ... 15.1%

500+: 13.3% ... 26.7%

Avg: 360 ... 420

You may say that if everyone is inflated, what's the issue? Well, first, previous and subsequent cohorts are massively disadvantaged. But so too are the many people who perform better in the actual exam than they do in class tests. They may have sat the exams but they will have seen their results eclipsed by those given generous predicted grades. Then there's the fact that there will be disparities in how generous teachers are.

What staggers me is that there seems to be no adverse reaction to this. This is a national scandal and there's barely any talk of it here or on reddit. Newspapers are covering it like it's an education story when it ought to be a political one.

I have a sister who will be sitting the exams next year who may well be competing against people whose points scores are 40-50 points higher than they should be.

Podge_irl

Any system that involves teachers giving out grades is going to result in grade inflation as at the very least it removes the element of kids who are capable of getting high marks but who, for any of a multitude of reasons, come a cropper in an exam. A teacher can reasonably estimate that they have 10 students capable of getting an A in the exam, but he doesn't know which one will panic and do a terrible job on the day.

There is a pretty reasonable argument to be had about which is fairer and its not straightforward.

ireallydontknow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117860289#Comment_117860289

'doesn't know which one will panic and do a terrible job on the day'

This is an incredibly naive explanation for why six times as many people got maximum points (and the many other over-achievements). Are we to assume that 1000 of the 1400 would ordinarily have panicked?

History Queen

Most teachers did not want predicted grades as we felt it was an inherently unfair system. The Department of Education time and again failed to plan for contingencys and to take teachers views in to account. I feel sorry for anyone who suffered as a result of the system.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117860312#Comment_117860312

It doesn't capture the full picture, but I would imagine a significant portion of students would underperform in at least one exam yeah.

Gatling

They made a mess of it , imagine the students who worked their backsides off and put in real efforts during the lockdowns finding Donal the class clown and dizzy dora have gotten first choice offers based off inflated grades despite not making the effort ,

Oh look I got 600 points I was only expecting 300/400 at most

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117860106#Comment_117860106

That is pretty damming.

A 575% increase of those who get 625 points

A 269% increase of those who got over 550 points

A doubling of those who got over 500 points?

So, is the OP seriously suggesting that in the space of 24 months, teachers have gotten twice as good? Or are they giving good/better grades to everyone regardless of ability?

plodder

I thought it was down to students being allowed to take the higher of the estimated grade or the exam paper. That was always going to lead to grade inflation. It was an interesting experiment though which revealed certain biases that have been suspected but never proven before.

noplacehere

Honestly the course changes for the amended papers were enormous. The practical in music was particularly easy. The exam is usually 25 minutes, performing up to 8 pieces. This was reduced to under 5. It’s worth 50% of the course. I was to predict their grades based on this not on the usual papers. It was always going to lead to inflation

on the other hand it was the first year I think I may have had two H1s in the class (as rare as hens teeth) and I’m mildly irritated they didn’t get to ‘prove’ that in the normal exams

Carfacemandog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117846337#Comment_117846337

I sat it 16 years ago, and remember hearing hwo it was well known that it was a different beast to 10-20 years prior.

Is anyone reading the thread who sat it 30 odd years ago and heard the same when they sat it?

Probably best to compare past papers to make sure it's not "back in my day"isms at play.

spurious

Here are some Maths type papers to compare.

https://archive.maths.nuim.ie/staff/dmalone/StateExamPapers/

BrianD3

Inflation in anything is problematic and is particularly bad in this case given the effects on people's careers and the undermining of the continuity of the system in a short space of time. What happens next year, will a way need to be found to keep points inflated so that next year's students aren't disadvantaged by having to compete with those who apply for college courses in 2022 with their 2021 points.

CAO points have been trending upwards for many years but at least it was gradual. E.g. the percentage of students achieving 500+ points roughly doubled between 1995 and 2003.

Was the running of aptitude tests in 2021 instead of a traditional LC ever considered. Points inflation could have been avoided by standardising scores to 2019 CAO points. If 500 points was the 90th percentile in 2019 and someone is in the 90th percentile in the aptitude test in 2021, award them 500 points. If the aptitude tests only required minimal study then that could solve another problem - the disruption to the academic year with some students suffering much more than others e.g. cases where there was a covid outbreak in a school or at home, distracting and stressing students and affecting their studies. Then, possibly and depending on personality etc., having a teacher "feel sorry for them" and awarding a generous predictive grade which is obviously problematic.

Podge_irl

Aptitude tests are nothing whatsoever to do with testing learned material and have no place in the LC. Also they can and are gamed by people with more resources constantly.

ireallydontknow

Headline in the Independent today: 'Number of students with 625 points in Leaving Cert more than doubles.' The real story is that it has increased more than fivefold on 2019. How could they possibly ignore that angle?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117861827#Comment_117861827

I agree with your sentiment but I'm not sure aptitude tests or deflating to historical trends would have resolved anything. What's ignored in the excitement about record points is that the inflation is not uniform. Last year there were many many students aggrieved by their under-performance, many whose teacher-determined grades were marked down by an algorithm. Your suggestion of deflating grades would only have exacerbated that imbalance and brought arbitrary grade-reductions to scandalous levels, all for the benefit of past and future years. In years gone by, with B2, B3, C1, etc, it might have mattered less, but nowadays a grade reduction is a huge penalty. As for aptitude tests, that's a whole other kettle of fish: there are always ways to hack them, hugely controversial, likely to be better predictors of success for some courses than others...

BrianD3

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117861871#Comment_117861871

Well done on missing the point and pointing out the blindingly obvious. Of course aptitude tests are not about testing learned material - that is the point. The learning of material and exam prep in the senior cycle has been seriously disputed by Covid. The solution that we came up with was to try to maintain a semblance of normality using predictive grades. Result: court cases, introduction of subjectivity, removal of anonymity, undermining of the system, lack of continuity, points inflation and undoubtedly people gaming the system.

plodder

Why isn't the overall score simply the sum of the percentage scores in the top six subjects? Why is it based on grades at all?

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117861937#Comment_117861937

Aptitude tests won't help with anything and are irrelevant to what is even being attempted to be tested. You may as well suggest a sports day to rank students.

They are generally pretty flawed things, and will benefit the exact same people who were best prepped to get through the learning disruptions anyway.

Predictive grades and judging ability based on what material they were able to cover is still vastly preferable.

.G.

I sat it in 1996 and it's as pointless today as it was then. Its sole purpose is to gain points to get into college. If you've no interest in going to college it isn't worth worrying about it. Just do enough to pass it and move on with your life. I've never had any employer show interest at all in how I did in it, was only FAS who required the bare minimum grades to enter the trade I entered.

Similarly if you do want to go to college then study and do well but once you get to college no employer will be interested in your leaving cert, only how you did in college. Told my own son not to worry or stress over it, his future career and prospects aren't set by how he does in this thing, only in what he does after it.

silverharp

My son wants to study Computer Science in Germany , they dont have a points system for these courses its basically a case of only apply if you think you have the aptitude for it and its on you if you dont. With the obsession about points I wonder do students fall into the trap of thinking a particular course is better just because it has higher points, so end up doing a course they arent competent to do

Economics101

How many times do people miss the blindingly obvious. Grade inflation means that students are being rewarded with a depreciating currency, As in ordinary price inflation the root cause is excess points/money creation. Just as your €100 will buy a lot less than it would have a year ago if inflation were 10% p.a., your depreciated grade-inflated points will not "buy" you the same course as they would have a year ago, But the while process is caused by the average joe getting more points than they would have a year ago, so in real terms they are generally no worse off

Economists often talk about "money illusion" when people tend to confuse nominal changes in income with real changes at a time of price inflation. A lot of people now seem to suffer from "points illusion", exactly the same mistake.

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117862135#Comment_117862135

That only holds true for the cohort of students that were in any given years LC. Problems start to arise when students from different years apply through the CAO system as you're then comparing different standards. Those who are using 2020 results are being disadvantaged and it's likely that those of this 2021 cohort will be better off if they choose to wait out a year for next years CAO system. Only solution to this is to insist that all students applying through CAO must use results from the current year.

plodder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117862093#Comment_117862093

What happens when more people apply than there are places?

BrianD3

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117862135#Comment_117862135

People understand the concept of inflation. As already stated, predictive grades affect the integrity of the system and sudden points inflation affects continuity.

Also, there is a psychological aspect to this inflation. There are people who did this year's LC who achieved a "perfect" 625 points who may not be offered their first choice. Even having to achieve 625 points i.e. 6 H1s is bad in itself - it heaps pressure on people and makes them feel that they must be perfect in a variety of subjects requiring different aptitudes. Even if it is "easier" to be perfect than it used to be.

When, say, Dentistry in TCD was 530 points back in the mid nineties, compared to 625 today you'd feel that there was some scope for error, having an off day or being weaker in your humanities subjects than in your science subjects.

silverharp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117862325#Comment_117862325

I guess for things like medicine there is competition for places so grades and subject choice would matter. They seem to be chasing foreign students so they probably have more capacity than students

noplacehere

There were huge changes to the requirements for the exam. Grade inflation was always going to happen as a consequence this year

https://assets.gov.ie/128047/0872bba7-89ae-4524-9f24-dfe3a2d16830.pdf

there are also smaller changes to the exams in 2022 so I would expect it to drop back towards 2019 results and then hopefully back to the norms by 2023

Wanderer78

jesus christ, when will we ever drop this ridiculous leaving cert/points system, ffs!

dam099

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117848821#Comment_117848821

I think a fail in maths may be a prerequisite for journalism courses judging by the quality of mathematical reasoning in a lot of news articles. 😋