4 year olds able to change gender in Scotland

LLMMLL

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117810252#Comment_117810252

I have. Some have very clear ideas about sex/gender (obviously they don't talk about the concepts themselves), others don't seem to give a ****.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117811387#Comment_117811387

a 4 year old barely knows that it is human. And there’s plenty of young kids who have expressed a preference for being the other sex because they perceive their parents as being closer to a new child - if that child is the opposite sex - because they see that as the reason. Or a girl may want the freedom of her male siblings. This is a world away from adult gender dysphoria.

you don’t have to defend everything, you know.

LLMMLL

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117810275#Comment_117810275

I assume you campaigned against the "girls are full of sugar and spice and all things nice" nursery rhyme so.

LLMMLL

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117811412#Comment_117811412

What a pointless comment. I'm not defending everything, I'm defending specific things. Could equally say after all of your posts: "you don't have to argue against everything you know".

A four year old may not have deep analytical thoughts in humanity but in my experience a 4 year old extremely clearly knows the difference between a person and an animal and that they are like other people and not like animals. Just because they can't take part in an internet debate on the issue doesn't mean they have barely any conception of it.

Pawwed Rig

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117810079#Comment_117810079

Huh? I never mentioned anyone being gay?

Demonique

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117804810#Comment_117804810

Except that trans people have to be at least 18 before they can have sex change surgery

LLMMLL

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117812018#Comment_117812018

I know you didn't. I did. The argument you are making is the same used against gay people for decades.

jay1988

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117810238#Comment_117810238

Funny the only person posting anything that could be considered bullying is yourself. Scumbag bastards? Sick perverted freak? all things you've called people in this thread.

Pawwed Rig

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117812049#Comment_117812049

I am not making an argument. I was asking a question from a position of ignorance

francois

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117809139#Comment_117809139

It isn't law. Some of the more excitable posters seem to think this is some legal requirement. It pays to read beyond the clickbait headlines.

Ten of Swords

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117807811#Comment_117807811

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117808963#Comment_117808963

Mod - Comments like this add nothing to the discussion. Leave it out.

Ten of Swords

Mod - Thread has been reviewed and quite a few posts have been deleted, either for being completely off topic or for containing abuse aimed at other posters. If you wish to discuss this topic do so in good faith and without abusive or insulting posts

@eskimohunt several posts about astralgender has been deleted. This seems to be a recurring go-to topic in any gender related threads you post in and you have referenced it extensively in many other threads. It is not relevant in this thread - do not bring it up again.

Gatling

@km991148 "This isn't about brainwashing kids, it's about providing support for those struggling"

Do you understand the struggles 4 year old children have ,

Counting 1-10

All 27 letters of the alphabet

What treat will be in my lunch box.

Where's my teddy.

Am I going to big school now ......

Gender reassignment isn't definitely not one of them ......

km991148

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117812931#Comment_117812931

It would be lovely if life could be simplified like this, but really this is not reality.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117813086#Comment_117813086

It really is.

It's nonsense to claim otherwise.

km991148

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117813319#Comment_117813319

Thread done, QED then?

Your opinion is at odds with what is happening in real life.

Danno

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117813596#Comment_117813596

Or your wishful thinking. Kids of 4 barely recognise that it is an outlet for urine, let alone anything else.

jmlad2020

I'm all for neutering these folks. Let them do what they want.

km991148

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117813632#Comment_117813632

Yes, that's one opinion, but the science shows otherwise on this* (I find the irony quite amusing really as often the name of 'science and biology' is used to deny the rights of trans people).

*i.e. that gender may be determined far earlier than thought and that 4 year olds could know exactly what it is to them.

EDIT: I just reread, are you talking about genitals in relation to gender? I think we are getting off topic to the thread but that's not really the determining factor these days. But I think that's out with the scope of the thread.

km991148

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117813652#Comment_117813652

Well I guess the physical harm is different to the psychological harm?

Or is this a threat against the policy makers?

Do you often want to physically harm those that you disagree with or don't understand?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117813596#Comment_117813596

It's not.

Boys and girls are absolutely not interchangeable in real life. They are very different and absolutely should not be left to believe otherwise, especially by people who are supposed to educate them.

km991148

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117813756#Comment_117813756

What you described (boys and girls being interchangeable) is at best an over simplification or just plain not happening.

Neither is the "leading them to believe otherwise" / encouragement.

People who are trans exist. Evidence is beginning to show that this happens from a young age, possibly before birth or even genetics (biology, for those fans of using that line).

i.e. it's not encouraging boys to 'become' girls or vice versa, but supporting those that do have an issue with their gender.

What would your propose in these cases? The usual? Get them to suppress this and cause other firms of psychological harm? Because this is the reality. I firmly believe you are completely wrong with this "encouragement" line and it's seems to be policy makers think the same (or have these people been played as well? Seems a bit unlikely tbh?).

Gatling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117813086#Comment_117813086

According to who exactly.....

I think you have no real idea of what kids are actually like ,

To think you believe that 2-4 year olds are worrying about gender identity ,

Nonsense

km991148

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117814036#Comment_117814036

Cool. I respect your right to have an opinion, but there is a growing body of research, and it's really not that hard to find (hint tho: it won't be in the daily mail, unfortunately).

It's basic biology really that trans people exist and yes, children are aware of it. I don't see why people get so upset by this? Why does this bother you exactly?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117814104#Comment_117814104

A growing body of theories, and research.. but research in itself rarely proves anything. For decades, even up until fairly recently, research on the various Trans issues was considered to be a mental illness, and while they recognised the incredibly small numbers who were genuinely trans, for anyone who fell outside those categories or accepted views, they would be considered mentally ill.

It's not that long ago either that research from the social sciences (with it's links to psychology) was deemed as being progressive and helpful, until it was shown the biases that exist regarding peer related approval, and many of the BS ideas that were "accepted" as being true, but based on dodgy methodologies.

The simple truth is that it's far too early to prove anything when it comes to trans, although TBH I suspect it would make things better if Trans wasn't used as an umbrella term to include just about everything under the sun, and didn't shift in terminology and meaning every few weeks.

It's basic biology that some Trans people exist naturally. However, it's also simple logic that many who claim a kind of trans status are not trans (per the original meaning), or have been led to believe they are by external influences. This is especially true when it comes to minors.

Question for you. Having seen the variety of Trans related media, and advertising to promote Trans beliefs/rights, do you honestly believe that children aren't being convinced of being <insert> due to the interests and wishes of the adults around them? And if that's possible... in terms of numbers do you think that there would be more naturally born trans people than those who have been convinced or made to feel unsure about their gender due to external influence, ie. teachers, parents, influencers, peer pressure, etc.

km991148

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117814219#Comment_117814219

I take your points about evolving research (paraphrasing a bit as I'm short on time) but that is the nature of research.

Re the question, you don't specify <insert> but generally, I don't believe that kids are being encouraged to be something they are not.

And specifically in this case, I don't think there is an agenda, simply an option to provide support to people who do feel their gender is not one of the binary (mainly) options aligned to their sex (which if I understand correctly, you accept that there are people who fall under this category).

I'd like to go into that in more detail, but sun shining (and I didn't want to ignore your genuine question)! For later perhaps.

That;s cool. I understand completely. 😁

km991148

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117814278#Comment_117814278

Yeah like.. it's boards.ie lol, there is stuff outside 😆

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117813945#Comment_117813945

But what exactly do you mean by gender? Is it conflated with sex?

An issue with gender? Well isn't it a social construct? How can you have an issue with something that is indefinable?

If it isnt related to biological sex, then why are there no visible cases of people needing to transition from pangender to trigender? If there are infinite genders and gender is fluid, then would schools have to accept a 4 year olds new pronouns as and when they demand? If a 5 year old creates a new gender, should teachers accept it as reality?

A human male child is a boy. Biologically. That cannot be changed.

Akrasia

4 year olds are not anywhere near puberty. Why would they be given hormone treatment?

i have 2 girls and a boy aged 8 10 and 12. They have never expressed even the slightest interest in changing gender, but if they were obviously distressed and came to me or confided in someone else that they were deeply unhappy being the gender they were assigned at birth, I would listen to them and take their feelings seriously and get expert advice on the matter

at aged 4 there are no long term decisions to be made other than to let your child express them self. Trying to force them to be something they’re not comfortable with is more likely to do harm than good in the short and long term. There are a lot of suicides attributed to sexual preferences and gender identities not being accepted by parents leading to feelings of hopelessness and self loathing

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117810275#Comment_117810275

And that is the problem with the woke.

They believe there’s so many 4 year olds who don’t have education in this area and it’s not fair.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117814454#Comment_117814454

Again, they weren't assigned a gender at birth. They were either male or female, a boy or a girl.

Unless you admit that gender and sex are the same thing.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117814642#Comment_117814642

I never understand this "assigned at birth"gig. You have a penis, you're a boy. It's as simple as that. There's no choice involved for the parents or the children. The biological sexual organs determine our gender at birth.

Gamer Bhoy 89

Kids at that age pick their arses, nose and ears, believe in Santa Clause and the Tooth Fairy, can't count past 20, have zero idea where babies come from. Oh but they're somehow capable of identifying with a specific gender and should be taken 100% seriously.

So if my nephew (2 1/2 yrs old) says to me "I'm a girl now", I've to bring it to my sister-in-law and begin assisting in his transition? No, I'd be saying "are ya now? so am I!" wrap a big towel over my waist and start dancing like an eejit just to make him piss himself laughing, because I'm the mad uncle who knows how to humour a child. Because he's being ridiculous, because of course he fúcking is, because he's a toddler.

I pissed my trousers at the age of 4 all the time. I carried a blanket around with me everywhere. I drank tea out of a baby bottle and stole my sister's rusks.

Children don't know anything rational at that age. When I went to L'Estartit with my parents on holiday (I was 6) I thought I was gonna see my dead dog from outside the plane window. Every beach I looked at going forward, I thought it was Spain. Oh but gender identification is something I would've definitely been able to comprehend. Away ye go.

As a Scot, this story is embarrassing.

Annasopra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117804810#Comment_117804810

Noone is suggesting genital surgery for 5 year olds so frankly this post is nonsense .

LLMMLL

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117814951#Comment_117814951

Your assessment of children's knowledge is not very nuances. Cherry Pick some things they are not good at from an adult perspective as evidence that they are dumb.

We can do the opposite. For example, children have the ability to learn a language in a very short space of time without even trying. Yet adult learner's desperate to learn a language will never match the ability of a child in this. Does this mean adults are DB and shouldn't be paid attention to? Obviously not.

We should be realistic about what kids know and don't know instead of just portraying them as dummies with no minds.

And they are very aware of gender and can have strong opinions on it. No they're not going to be taking part in internet debates about trans rights but that doesn't mean if a child says it's a girl and you think it's a boy that it.can all be solved with a funny dance. That's spectacularly naive.

Also, it should be pointed out (though I'm sure it will be ignored) that there is nothing to suggest there will be education around these issues. Posters keep claiming 4 year olds will be taught about gender. All the article says is that a child will be referred to by pronouns they ask for and be able.to use the toilets they want. No curriculum changes. But hey why let the truth get in the way of a good nonsensical rant.

LLMMLL

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117815208#Comment_117815208

So much of this thread has been misinformation. It's so flagrant it's hard to know if it's on purpose or if the anti-trans posters lack simple reading comprehension.

They've assumed surgery forn4 year olds, hormones for 4 year olds, education about trans issues for 4 year olds, 4 year olds being taught niche genders that nobody has ever heard of etc.

They don't seem to have any interest in what the Scottish are ACTUALLY doing. I guess it's not controversial enough for them.

Annasopra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117809174#Comment_117809174

Yep it does.

Im aware though of an all girls school run by the Loreto Nuns that accomodated a young trans male quite well though. So it can be done and many schools are already handling this situation very well.

Annasopra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117814454#Comment_117814454

Noone has suggested hormone treatment for 4 year olds.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117815208#Comment_117815208

Are you suggesting that you should encourage or support a 5 year old to believe they are the opposite sex if they feel that way?

Annasopra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117815272#Comment_117815272

Its all just jumping to conclusions and not actually discussing what is happening.

We're not talking about surgery

We're not talking about medical treatment

We're not talking about hormones

We're not talking about medical transition

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117815272#Comment_117815272

Would you support teachers telling a child that they can be the opposite sex if they feel that way inclined?

LLMMLL

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117815405#Comment_117815405

Exactly we are not even talking about education/curriculum changes. It's simply about pronoun usage etc.

Annasopra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117815404#Comment_117815404

If a 5 year old identified as the opposite gender then there should in my opinion be non directive support (emphasising emotional support regardless of what happens) which looks at the context - is this a throwaway once off comment or is it continued insistence, are there other behaviours the child is displaying e.g. do they seem suddenly over introverted or overly angry or distressed, is the childs behaviour causing a lot of distress for the whole family and then looks at what professional supports are available for the child e.g. child psychologist

Akrasia

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117815388#Comment_117815388

Nobody sensible is, but people are jumping to conclusions and assuming parents will be starting medical transition for 4 year olds

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117815251#Comment_117815251

Young children have the capacity to learn and absorb information. That doesn't mean that we should expose them to the complexities of human society, and the difficulties that comes with being a teen/adult in terms of gender and sexuality. We used to believe in protecting children, giving them the chance to be children, providing them the scope to develop in their own ways.

What you're suggesting is pushing adult considerations on to children... because that is what you are doing. Expecting them to understand and appreciate the complex nature of gender and sex.. when they're 4 or 5 years old. Which they don't currently understand, but you would change that.. simply because they could learn to understand. Maybe.

It's a pity you don't have any concerns about the long-term personality trauma such tampering might have.

For children those ages to be concerned with pronouns, or anything else related to Trans or identity, they would have first been taught and conditioned by an adult. This proposal gives permission for adults to do just that. Introduce adult considerations to very young children.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117815405#Comment_117815405

We''re talking about what would come after should such an idea be allowed to given time to become established.

Ten-fifteen years ago, in most countries, you would have found real opposition to secondary school students declaring their gender, but now it's become somewhat accepted, and even expected that pronouns be decided and expressed. Go back another five years, and raised eyebrows would have been common about university students declaring such. Now.. it's "normal".

Your objection is common on threads like these as if nothing further would be born from such a change.. but further change does come. Once an idea becomes allowed, and then accepted, further ideas (which maybe have been considered more extreme) become less objectionable because we've allowed other things to happen. That's happened repeatedly over the last two-three decades with a variety of social causes.

The danger here is because this is about young children. Adults can decide for themselves, and bear the consequences for their choices. Children, on the other hand, are impressionable from all manner of sources, and frankly, I'd be concerned that any gender question for a young child would not be coming from the child, but from the parent or a teacher who has meddled with the child's perceptions.

LLMMLL

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117815599#Comment_117815599

I never suggested pushing adult concerns into children. Can you quote something I've said where you believe that to be the case?

Or are you still IMAGINING that the Scottish guidance provides for 4 year olds to be educated about trans issues. It doesn't. Maybe try reading the article?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117815640#Comment_117815640

Sigh. Forget it. I should know better.

LLMMLL

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117815659#Comment_117815659

Exactly. You can't point to where I supported pushing adult.concerns on kids. Because I didn't.

The guidance is all about kids concerns. They want to be referred to in a certain way. The teacher respects their wishes. That's it.