Aphantasia, can you see mental images?

Sleeper12

1. I see no mental pictures

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117779533#Comment_117779533

I bring earphones everywhere with me & that can put the music in my head. 😎

seamus

5. I see colour mental pictures

@happywednesday wrote:

I feel like I'm missing out not being able to close my eyes and see things clearly, obviously my brain power is being utilised elsewhere

I think very few, if any people can close their eyes and see images as clearly as if they're actually standing there. For most people, the act of closing your eyes just removes any distractions and makes it easier to concentrate on whatever you're picturing in your mind.

IIRC, in studies of this they've found that when people are daydreaming/remembering, parts of their visual cortex lights up. The visual cortex is the region of the brain which takes the electrical signals from your retinas and converts that to a visible image.

At a biological level, the brain is "replaying" memories against the visual cortex and therefore manifesting images in your mind. The completeness of the images is likely a combination of the quality of the memory as well as the strength of connection between the memory storage area and the visual cortex.

Thus closing your eyes means more "bandwidth" is available in the visual cortex to process memories, allowing them to become marginally clearer.

The thing has been known about for about a century, but went largely unstudied. I guess from most peoples' point of view, if you don't know any different then you don't know you are different.

Studies have suggested that this mostly affects conscious memory recall, that people with Aphantasia can/do still dream. Since dreaming involves the activation of the visual cortex and has a memory-heavy element to it, it suggests that it may be possible to "train" yourself to be able to visualise, and/or visualise more clearly than you do at present. Like someone re-learning how to use a limb after nerve damage.

Or, like the ability to wiggle one's ears or roll your tongue, it might just be something you can either do or not, no matter how much you practice.

the_pen_turner

1. I see no mental pictures

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117780088#Comment_117780088

That's what I'm was thinking.

I remember you saying that before.

I have suspicions I have as well

the_pen_turner

1. I see no mental pictures

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117780050#Comment_117780050

Yes but that the other side of the coin. People are saying they dont have this but are like that

donspeekinglesh

1. I see no mental pictures

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117780036#Comment_117780036

They might be a link with autism: https://sci-hub.se/http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1053810021000131

But it's a new area of research as it's really only been studied in the past few years.

I don't have dyslexia or autism.

donspeekinglesh

1. I see no mental pictures

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117780117#Comment_117780117

MRIs of people with Aphantasia show the visual cortex doesn't light up like for people who can visualise. The brain scans are very different: https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/when-the-minds-eye-is-blind1/

While most people with Aphantasia dream visually, a considerable greater number than of the general population can't: http://sites.exeter.ac.uk/eyesmind/2020/06/05/publication-of-phantasia-the-psychological-significance-of-lifelong-visual-imagery-vividness-extremes/

SEPT 23 1989

3. I see vivid mental pictures

I can see mental images but remembering names birthdays etc totally useless

wench

1. I see no mental pictures

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117778241#Comment_117778241

I am terrible at faces, I'd be doing well to give an accurate photo-fit of my own mother!

It's be - short blonde hair, and then, you know, face bits.

There are no voices, nor conscious categorization, I just think of a thing and info about it pops up.

I suppose similar to how a photo contains info about a tree, but isn't a tree, I just have one more layer of abstraction.

sporina

3. I see vivid mental pictures

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117780006#Comment_117780006

lol gee I wish - unless all geniuses are crap with names.. lol

Homelander

3. I see vivid mental pictures

I only read about this recently and I find it honestly mind-blowing, because you assume how you process information and memories is the same as everyone else.

I can easily picture anything in my mind's eye, clearly, vividly, full color. Whether my eyes are open or closed makes no difference.

Sunny Disposition

5. I see colour mental pictures

At risk of lowering the tone, but I am interested, if you can't see mental images how do you have sexual fantasies?

Sleeper12

1. I see no mental pictures

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117780739#Comment_117780739

Pornhub 😈

JupiterKid

3. I see vivid mental pictures

I have a very good, deep photographic memory.

I can remember TV adverts from my 1980s childhood in excellent detail.

silliussoddius

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117781681#Comment_117781681

Have you actually looked up the ads on YouTube to see how close you remember?

Memory is a fascinating subject, people think it’s like hitting rewind on a DVD player, but the brain can fill in a lot of stuff that you think happened.

https://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=126977945

I wonder how different degrees of Aphantasia impacts peoples ability to remember events.

Celmullet

1. I see no mental pictures

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117777735#Comment_117777735

Very true, I was making my assumption on the very unscientific observation of my wife and I. She sees very vivid images and can sit amusing herself with her own thoughts for ages.

DavyD_83

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117777485#Comment_117777485

Sounds like I could have written this. I've been thinking about it a lot since I read three post, but haven't had a chance to do any reading other that this thread.

I think I remember seeing things, rather than re-see them.

I thought this was how everybody worked and some people were just now dramatic about it ..

PokeHerKing

1. I see no mental pictures

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117782574#Comment_117782574

As in just in a room, no tv/book/phone, on her own giggling to her thoughts?

Celmullet

1. I see no mental pictures

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117782625#Comment_117782625

Yes, but without the giggling. Just asked her there, and she said she sometimes replays scenes from tv shows or books that she enjoyed other times it is memories, but she can see things very clearly. Sometimes she'll have conversations in her head so intense that she thinks she's had them in real life and forget to respond to people as she thinks she did it already.

I know, it is weird for me to imagine too.

Danonino.

1. I see no mental pictures

This was a pretty big thing for me a year or two ago. Plenty of interesting conversations with friends and family.

I’m 100% mind eye blind and honestly wouldn’t have it any other way, because it’s all I’ve know as normal. The differences between the actual thought and imaging process is pretty small and there’s pros and cons to both. Guess my screen is just turned off ha ha

I’ts a really fascinating subject, but, honestly if I woke up tomorrow suddenly able to visualize images in my mind Id struggle to function. Which I would gamble is how a lot of people would feel the other way around.

PokeHerKing

1. I see no mental pictures

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117782835#Comment_117782835

Id sleep with one eye open if I were you.

CollyFlower

1. I see no mental pictures

Totally black when trying to see images. Always envied people who could visually enact scenes. I have checked up to see if there was any way to open the minds eye but it seems like you either have it or not... Anyone here ever succeeded in going from black to opening their minds eye? I feel like I'm missing out.

jmlad2020

1. I see no mental pictures

I couldn't bare to have aphantasia. I work as a creative professional and visualise problems and solutions in my mind everyday.

"People with low or no ability to visualise mental images are more likely to work in scientific and mathematical industries than creative sectors, research has found.""

We are all made different.

5. I see colour mental pictures

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117779466#Comment_117779466

Very interesting Gregor. There are a lot of similarities between us. I'm upstairs right now but can 'see' in my mind the other rooms and all there details. I can create in my head, change the layout of a room, different interiors etc. The same with dressing myself, I intuitively know what would 'work' because I can put it together in my head.

When it comes to directions though I'm terrible and I'm not great at maps, in fact I need directions written down in list form. Names go missing on me. I will remember everything about the person but not their name. Phone numbers, dates, birthdays..a disaster.

I most certainly am not in the upper ranges of IQ however 😄 Little to no understanding of maths and a not very logical brain sees to that.

My fiancé though, he is on another level altogether.

5. I see colour mental pictures

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117782835#Comment_117782835

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117782835#Comment_117782835

Me too!! 😁

Gremlinertia

3. I see vivid mental pictures

HYmm, if there's no pictures when you are awake, are there pictures when you are asleep?.

I see loads in my mind's eye all the time, typically my reports from school would list me as good but prone to drifting off and daydreaming etc. I can pull up songs and 'listen' to them at will but often get stuck on one verse or chorus, books i imagine the full thing and see it quite vividly, this is fascinating

Zaph

1. I see no mental pictures

I first came across aphantasia a couple of years ago, and at 50+ it came as a real surprise that the "mind's eye" wasn't just a figure of speech and that people genuinely could visualise themselves on a beach or picture some detail from their childhood. For me, I know what sitting on a beach is like, and I know that I experienced whatever as a kid and have memories of it, but none of these memories come in picture form. Interestingly, I never considered the issue of recalling music until it was mentioned earlier in the thread. I can remember a song and the tune, but only as me "singing" it in my own mind, not as if it were the original that I played earlier. I wouldn't have much of an inner monologue either.

The study of aphantasia is very new, but research suggests that 1-3% of the population have it. In addition to generally not being able to visualise things, there are some other traits associated with it. Poor/no autobiographical memory - so as I mentioned before, I know things happened that I was present at, but I don't have any visualisation of them to back it up, I simply just remember something happening, almost like having a text file of the event rather than a gif. Poor facial recognition is another. I can meet someone today and pass them by in the street tomorrow and not recognise them at all. It takes quite a bit of exposure to someone for me to clearly remember their face. To me, this is really the only thing that annoys me about having aphantasia, it can lead to some awkward or embarrassing moments.

While it may not be a direct symptom of aphantasia, I also don't dream. Or to be more specific, I may dream, but I have never once remembered a dream when I wake up. I suspect there is possibly a connection, but I've also read about other aphantasics who have incredibly vivid dreams. I can also completely blank my mind, often at will. When we started going out my wife would sometimes see me just staring into space and ask me what I was thinking about. I'd truthfully answer nothing, and she couldn't understand how that was possible because she has a very active mind. It can be enjoyably peaceful sometimes.

As regards some of the other stuff mentioned in the thread - I'd have a very logical and analytical mind, I'm not in the slightest bit creative, and would probably have a higher than average IQ, but that doesn't necessarily have anything to do with aphantasia. I'm also most definitely not autistic or dyslexic, although I know that there are ongoing studies to examine any possible links with the former. As for feeling like I'm missing out on something by having aphantasia, it's just part of me, I can't miss something I've never had, and I think at this stage if all of a sudden I could visualise things it would be potentially overwhelming.

Danonino.

1. I see no mental pictures

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117783021#Comment_117783021

IIRC the ex chief of Pixar has aphantasia. I’m 100% blind but main career has been in a visual medium (design, motion graphics etc) and hobbies are almost exclusively music related.

I always thought that visually creative people took ideas (which to me always were without a visual element, they are ideas, not real, how could they etc) and gave them a visual form. I think I’d struggle if I could visualize something then try to recreate it and the frustration that could come from that.

Same end goal, just different process. People with Aphantasia were found to be able to think or imagine a face they had never seen before easier than those without etc. Fascinating subject, and the more you read into it the more you realize neither group are missing out or broken ha ha

Also find it fascinating that dreams and sleep are almost completely identical. (With or without Aphantasia you still have visual dreams) and things like spatial awareness, memory or being able to imagine a space and imagine an object in it are uneffected etc

Really is like the screen is unplugged but the computer is running just fine 😂

Don’t get me started on people with inner monologues and/or the ability to hear music etc. The rabbit hole goes deeper than Aphantasia.

……

I think it went unnoticed for so long due to how we describe thoughts and ideas, coupled with sayings that made sense to both parties but now do not:

”Picture this”

”Let me paint you a picture”

”Fading memories”

“Can see it clear as day”

Etc etc

Personally I though counting sheep when trying to fall asleep was just another way of saying ‘count monotonously in the dark till you bore yourself to sleep’. Not that mother****ears were actually SEEING sheep. Ha ha

Edit: I’m also completely and utterly useless at Math. Like embarrassingly so.

PokeHerKing

1. I see no mental pictures

I think it's just a variation in how people process a memory but I have to say I definitely feel like I'm missing out by not being able to see a clear image of what I'm remembering.

It's mad though, I play a good bit of golf and the next time somebody says to just 'visualise the shot ' I'm going to say I can't !

One eyed Jack

I get the full VR 4K experience in my minds eye at least. Though I’ve known of other people who are like you OP, just never knew it was an actual condition. I’m very much like that though in that I’m kinda like “it is what it is”, because I was never keen on the idea of pathologising what to me are just variations in perceptions among people - some people can do what other people can’t, and vice versa, some people can’t do what other people can.

I struggled with school from an early age and was diagnosed with dyslexia when I was around seven. There wasn’t as much known about dyslexia then among the general public as there is now, and in school I was often referred to as ‘retarded’. If I’d worn glasses I’d have been picked on for wearing glasses, that was just the way it was. I felt like the odd one out when everyone else was doing something I couldn’t, namely reading, writing, socialising and being able to keep up in class - the kinda things that are important in school. I was very fortunate in that my mother was a teacher and ‘homeschooled’ the hell out of me outside of school, and instilled in me the value of education.

Over time I came to learn that there wasn’t anything wrong with me, I just perceived things differently to other people. There are some areas where I appear to have considerable advantages over other people, like I can relate to some of what Gregor was saying earlier even though I see myself as very much on the opposite end of the IQ scale 😂 Again, for me, it just is what it is, and that’s why sometimes I feel like it would be inappropriate to say anything because different people perceive different things… differently*. Just take as a recent example, Princess Beatrice views being dyslexic as something of a gift. Wouldn’t put it in those words myself , but I understand what she means, and I understand her intent -

https://www.hellomagazine.com/royalty/20210816119297/princess-beatrice-talks-baby-dyslexia-gift-homeschooling-stepson/

There’s other stuff I struggle with - I’m lost when it comes to directions (pardon the pun!), and Google Maps Voice Guidance with a set of earphones means I’m not as dependent upon memorising landmarks as I’m en route any more (which is a good thing because I’m shyte at that too and often got lost anyway).

Curiously enough, having lost my vision in my right eye hasn’t been the impedence I initially thought it would be at the time when I lost my sight in that eye - I initially struggled a lot with depth perception, but now it doesn’t trouble me nearly as much as it used to. The only time anyone might notice anything is when I’m in the office and everyone else has their dual-monitor setup with the secondary monitor on the right, I have mine on the left so it’s within my peripheral vision.

Again I have no idea if it’s an ocular dominance thing but before losing my vision I always had the secondary monitor on the right, just felt more natural, nothing to do with left/right hand/leg dominance though, far as that goes I’m easy with left or right hand because I’m poor at writing with either (in school at the time I felt bad for the few children in the class who were left-hand dominant because they got the metre stick across their hand while I was left alone). I wasn’t naturally ambidextrous, I just thought the fact I couldn’t write had something to do with whether I was left or right handed, so learned to write with either, at one stage I hadn’t even realised I was mirror writing, and I didn’t even realise that was a thing until we were learning about Leonardo Da Vinci in school, who used to do it on purpose -

https://auralcrave.com/en/2019/03/05/a-closer-look-to-leonardo-da-vincis-mirror-writing/

*The recent site update is another example. For me it’s brilliant, but because I see how many people are struggling with it, I just feel like it would be inappropriate to go into Feedback forum and say it 😬

HerrKapitan

What about dreams?