Cash payments over €10,000 banned under new EU directive

BattleCorp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117704803#Comment_117704803

You are fine then with assuming that someone is guilty of a crime because they have over €10k in cash?

If I earn money legitimately, it should be up to me to save it in a way that I deem fit and spend it in a way I deem fit (assuming I am buying a legal product that is).

Citrus_8

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117706899#Comment_117706899

What kind of a purchase it could be for 10K, I'm wondering? And why a buyer decides to use a less save way to pay for such an expensive purchase? And to add: very rarely business buyer would ever agree to pay this amount in cash, so this is most likely a residential buyer profile.

BattleCorp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117707018#Comment_117707018

I bought a car for €14k once.

Strumms

private citizens should have the right to conduct transactions in cash..

i sold a car to a neighbor of mine... cash. Why ? I don’t have a card machine in my gaff nor do I wish to wait for cheques to clear.

if organized crime is an issue that is determining these eejits in ‘power’ to do away with our rights to use cash... sort out organized crime by issuing appropriate sentences for those involved in and convicted of being in organized crime... instead of punishing regular law abiding private citizens.

The J Stands for Jay

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117707139#Comment_117707139

Why didn't he transfer it to your account like a normal person?

BattleCorp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117707300#Comment_117707300

I actually don't have internet banking. Never bothered with it. Don't need it at the moment. These new rules might change that though.

Strumms

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117707300#Comment_117707300

I don’t think after that comment, that you are best placed to determine who is or isn’t a normal person...he is a friend of ours to boot.

the gentleman is an older man, mid 70’s with I imagine limited to no experience of transferring money electronically and our agreement to suit both parties was to deal in cash.

Citrus_8

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117707102#Comment_117707102

In cash? I wouldn't risk carrying this amount and taking a car without a prove of payment. Did you buy from a dealer or privately?

Citrus_8

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117707139#Comment_117707139

The best would have been to make a bank transfer payment (cheque? C'mon, it's 2021, what is cheque?!). Now, there's a delay with these bank transactions as Irish banks are very slow (if paid to a different bank). Either way, it's legally recommended to make a written contract between both private parties as a proof of purchase. Imagine, if a logbook gets lost and a previous owner announces a car to be stolen. Gardai finds a car in your home, cease it and you don't have money and car - all that because of cash and no proof of purchase. True story, by the way ;) Also, so often happens that a new owner makes a trip on the M50 with a new car, forgets to pay, a previous owner gets a penalty as a purchase date is next day on the logbook. No proof of purchase to dispute the date. Or opposite, previous owner makes a trip, forgets to pay but a purchase date is today on a logbook - new owner gets a penalty and they cannot dispute it due to lack of supporting evidence.

Citrus_8

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117707319#Comment_117707319

Alright, but you know what's the Internet, obviously. And you know how to turn on a PC/laptop/smart phone - at least one of these. Internet banking is a magic from the past. You're around 15 years behind. I heard that these kind of people exist, but I thought my friends are only joking... Never met one before. Nice to meet you :)

Strumms

You can argue what ‘could’ be best practice but it doesn’t get away from the fact that in a free society you should be of the ability to make any purchases using legal tender.

Citrus_8

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117707646#Comment_117707646

If this was referred to me (apologies for interrupting if not), then I'm feeling a bit tightened here due to a very well though question... I think I should mention that I love socialism and tyranny. I don't like free society term. I think, the government should be the slaves for the society in terms of low wages but big workload, but have authority to create strict rules, and the society should follow them. This is for the government to have a taste of the poorest, but also be strict with the richest in the society.

Pretty much like an online forum where admins and moderators can act in any way within their own creates rules which the members have agreed upon the registration... When baby gets born, it gets registered as agreeing to the country's laws on behalf of the parents. When a child grows up and gets a passport, agrees with the laws him/herself.

If I were a despot... I should stop there :)

eggy81

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117703017#Comment_117703017

Yes indeed. The housing situation lends huge credence to your argument.

@deec

@deec made a really good post just recently explaining what constitutes legal tender - I'd link to it if I could find my way around this stupid website.

(at least I think it was deec)

(eta)

@deec Apologies, the post I was referring to was actually made by @Darc19

Its on the "Shops refusing to accept cash" thread. Here is a link to it:

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117683031#Comment_117683031

BattleCorp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117707549#Comment_117707549

I bought it privately.

BattleCorp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117707639#Comment_117707639

I'm not yet 50, but not far off. I have a few standing orders in the bank and for everything else I use cash, debit card or my credit card. Would I know how to access my account online and transfer money, absolutely nope.

Ray Palmer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117707319#Comment_117707319

You are aware of cashier cheques right? They have been around since before you were born. Just because you never bothered before doesn't mean you can't do it now and seems you understand that.

Let's say I have a friend who always bought everything in cash and didn't have a job but bought and paid for lots of stuff like holidays for his entire family with cash. CAB can come after him if they know about it but at present they don't know. Now they will, he is most certainly involved in illegal activities. He never had the sense to set-up a business like others to show an income stream. He didn't even get a few greyhounds to explain "winings" as income. He will get caught now and I am amazed he hasn't already given his house and car alone

BattleCorp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117709288#Comment_117709288

I never claimed I couldn't do any of that stuff. I just don't want to. Cash works fine for me.

As for your point about someone else potentially breaking the law, that's nothing to do with me. I, on the other hand, have a job and can account for all of my money. So why shouldn't I be allowed to spend it as I deem fit (legally of course).

Ray Palmer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117709311#Comment_117709311

You can spend your money as you see fit nothing is stopping you. Cash has a problem and new rules partially solve it. Yes it does have something to do with you as you paying in cash allows others to avoid tax and hide income. It is like saying paying a bribe is nothing to do with you as the other person is taking the bribe. You can also be prosecuted for aiding in other people avoiding tax. This actually gives you safe guards but at very little inconvenience to you

The J Stands for Jay

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117707319#Comment_117707319

You don't need internet banking for someone to transfer money to your account.

McGiver

Is this something new for Irish folks?

Similar legislation regarding cash, in fact a possession of not just making a payment, is in place already in at least a few EU countries to my knowledge.

Owning, carrying or using large amounts of cash = tax evaders, scammers, smugglers, gangsters, organised crime and other sorts of criminal. Ordinary law-abiding citizens don't need large amounts of cash.

McGiver

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117700950#Comment_117700950

They were originally set up as a trade organisation but they have morphed into something much more dangerous

1. It's not they. It's we.
2. No, it was not setup as a trade organisation. Your saying so doesn't make it true.

quokula

This is not related to tax evasion - people who pay under the table to avoid tax can still do so as if the government couldn’t tell you were making a payment, they certainly can’t tell that the payment was over 10k. It may make more people think twice though.

The point of the directive is to stop money laundering. You make money by selling drugs or whatever, then you channel the piles of cash through a legitimate business you own, fully reported and fully taxed, and it is now your legitimate income and you avoid scrutiny for suddenly having an unexplained Ferrari in the driveway. This will be harder to do if you can’t keep paying large piles of cash to your business.

martingriff

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117707646#Comment_117707646

It's not a free society is it Strumms there are a lot of regulation for loads of stuff

berocca2016

All the huns won't be getting their CLAs and Evoques, bought using their fellas "nixer" money.

martingriff

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117703066#Comment_117703066

Do you really think that Revenue have access to people's and companies bank records and they can make judgements on how much tax you should be paying from it. Banks have a duty by law to respond to lodgement over 10K but that alone can't tell anything

Strumms

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117720871#Comment_117720871

Of course it’s a free society, people can do just about what the like as long as it’s lawful... :)

Citrus_8

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117720961#Comment_117720961

I know all that. Buy easier tracked I meant for tax calculation purposes when it's easier to proof. Also, I hope Ireland will soon implement this option so Revenue could see everyone's bank account balances. In some EU countries this is already working in some forms.

martingriff

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117721062#Comment_117721062

So your not free to do as you want

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117720154#Comment_117720154

Sweeping statement there in the second paragraph. I may not need to carry large amounts of cash on a regular basis, I do however carry a couple of hundred in cash all the time. I also want the choice, and right, to be able to carry, and pay with, as much cash as I choose to. I have no problem whatsoever with tradesmen asking to be paid in cash, I’m currently waiting for an electrician and a guy to put up fence with concrete posts, both quoted me cash, so be it, their relationship with Revenue is not my concern.

It would be naive in the extreme to assume the group you listed above will be out of business or become law abiding just because 10k cash deals are forbidden, or cash is removed altogether. Most of us are not criminals, we don’t have the benefit of the advice big players receive nor the ingenuity of some scammers/smugglers, they find a way.

The J Stands for Jay

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117722504#Comment_117722504

Sounds like you're worth mugging.

BattleCorp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117720154#Comment_117720154

That second paragraph is not remotely correct. You are assuming guilt because someone is carrying or using large amounts of cash. That's a perfectly legal thing to do here in Ireland and is in no way an indication that the person is a tax evader, scammer, smuggler or gangster. Like I said earlier in the thread, I paid €14k for a car in cash. I don't see a problem paying for something in cash.

You are correct when you say ordinary law-abiding citizens don't need large amounts of cash but what has need to do with it? Are we not a free society any more where people can do something because they want to do it (once it's legal) and not that they need to do it?

Tony EH

While I would be broadly pro EU, whilst still having issues with how things are done within it, I have to say that I don't like this idea at all (the ridiculous Indo take on it notwithstanding of course). I've known people who've spent upwards of 15,000 before on cars and I find the amount suggested here to be far too low for my liking. If it was 50,000 or 100,000 I wouldn't have as much of an issue with this. But 10,000 isn't that much these days and in later years it'll be classed as even less as inflation continues to be let go out of control.

Myself, I've paid around 5,000 in cash on PC equipment and that was in the naughties and was surprised at how little that ended up looking like in actual paper money. That's just half of what this EU proposal is. So the reality is that it isn't a huge sum of money, relatively speaking of course.

Plus, the excuse for this measure rings exceptionally hollow to my ears. This won't, in any way, reduce criminal activity in the slightest. So on immediate face value it comes across as a step towards a cashless society which, frankly, I am very loath to see happen. Plus in the future, if this thing goes ahead, what's to say that the amount won't be lowered to 5,000 or even 2,000?

McGiver

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117722504#Comment_117722504

I also want the choice, and right, to be able to carry, and pay with, as much cash as I choose to. 

Sure, but then you need to accept the result, the trade-off - this "choice" and "right" of yours supports organised crime, tax evasion and corruption. Do you accept that? Maybe you do, but society as a whole, and your representatives disagree and say that they do not accept this trade-off.

It would be naive in the extreme to assume the group you listed above will be out of business or become law abiding just because 10k cash deals are forbidden, or cash is removed altogether. 

Strawman argument. Policy is not aimed at eliminating the groups I listed above, it's about reducing it and making their life more complicated. That's literary the whole point of any sort of legislation aimed at reducing crime - it's about making it harder to commit crime and reducing the crime. Only an idiot would think that any legislation can eliminate crime, that's not realistic.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117729207#Comment_117729207

No I do not agree that carrying/paying/receiving cash supports organised crime, tax evasion nor corruption, any more than I would agree that it’s eradication would prevent the above. Only an idiot would think either is accurate.

McGiver

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117723361#Comment_117723361

Allowing large amounts of cash in circulation enables organised crime, tax evasion and corruption.

As a society, and through your elected representatives, we agree that restricting individual's right of carrying large amounts of cash around (so that just you can use it once a year or even less so) is a very good trade-off for reducing the negative aspects associated with large ammounts of cash in circulation with no restrictions.

And as I said - 14000 is a massive cash amount, several countries have had various restrictions on cash payments for a long time

In 18 of the 27 Member States the governments have either introduced or are in the process of introducing ceilings of between €500 and €15,000 for cash payments at national level. On average, these limits are €4,700 euros.

Austria - no limit

Belgium - limited to 3000 for goods & services; real estate cash payment is prohibited altogether

Bulgaria - limited to 5000

Cyprus - no limit

Czechia - limited to 14000

Denmark - no limit, but legislation in place to allow trader the right not to accept cash; shared VAT responsibility if paying more than 1340

Estonia - no limit

Finland - no limit; but traders have the right not to accept cash

France - 1000 for tax residents to traders; personal payments over 1500 require an invoice

Germany - no limit

Greece - limited to 1500

Hungary - no limit

Italy - limited to 3000

Latvia - no limit

Lithuania - no limit

Luxembourg - no limit

Malta - no limit

Netherlands - no limit

Poland - limited to 15000

Portugal - limited to 1000

Romania - limited to 2260/day/person

Slovakia - B2B, B2C, C2B limited to 5000, personal payments limited to 15000

Slovenia - no limit

Spain - limited to 2500

Sweden - no limit; but traders have the right not to accept cash

This particular Commission proposal, ironically proposed by the Irish Financial Commissioner Mairead McGuinness, draws from the best practice already in place in several EU countries. Many EU proposals originate like that, in fact.

McGiver

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117729298#Comment_117729298

Well, the EU governments, including the Irish one and the Irish EU commisioner disagree with you. It's not a rocket science. You can believe what you want.

But if you can't connect the two dots - "piles of cash" and "organised crime, corruption and tax evasion" then I can't help you.

McGiver

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117724554#Comment_117724554

What is the trade-off here for making once in a blue moon a payment to buy a car cashless?

Why does payment via card or nowadays app or bank transfer incovenient you in those rare instances?

Why do you think that reduction of cash payments don't reduce or make more difficult organised crime, tax evasion or corruption?

The J Stands for Jay

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117729298#Comment_117729298

What are your thoughts on the withdrawal of the €500 note?

MadYaker

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058202025/cash-payments-over-10-000-banned-under-new-eu-directive

My father is 66 and uses a visa debit on his iphone 10. He probably hasn't used cheques in (in ireland) in about 20 years. This idea that old people can't use technology is nonsense imo. As for this law, I don't like it, but only because it easier for governments to monitor what we are doing. This is another step on the road to a cash free economy which is also something I'm not in favour of.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117729398#Comment_117729398

I had one, ever, no shop wanted to accept it, the denomination was so big that it meant shops had to give huge amounts of change for small purchases and the concern about counterfeiting no doubt meant they were reluctant to take it. I don’t miss it.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117729367#Comment_117729367

I agree, you are no help, your connection between the continued use of cash and support of crime is tenuous at best, absurd at worst.

BattleCorp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117729359#Comment_117729359

Lets hope criminals never hear about bitcoin or other types of crypto.

Also, have you ever heard the expression 'never put all of your eggs in one basket'? If you get rid of cash (which this is the first step in that process), the banks have you by the balls.

Jeremy Sproket

Will it reduce the cultural activities of cat converter and metal theft?

Ahhhhh, beautiful culture.

McGiver

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117729481#Comment_117729481

So basically cash is essential and any restrictions thereof (in a good intent) is path to a dystopian dictatorship??? 😃

Cashless is inevitable, like it or not. Cash is going.

In Scandinavia, they've been using this smart ap, Swish, for personal (C2C) as well as consumer (C2B) cashless payments for several years. It'd become immediately very popular, it's safer, more convenient, almost every Swede has the app.

Sweden: cashless society and digital transformation | European Payments Council

Swish - About Swish

McGiver

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117730156#Comment_117730156

They will and then the legislation needs to react to that. Policy & legislation is an endless catch-up race...that's life.

In terms of eggs - no they won't (not that I believe in "banks" as an organised conspiracy) - you can buy gold bullions, gems, antiques, property, luxury cars. You name it. Cash is dirty, stupid, backward and the most risky as an alternative asset. And as I said enables organised crime, tax evasion and corruption. Better get rid of it.

zom

"Cashless is inevitable, like it or not. Cash is going."

Wet dreams of all bureaucrats comes true. If they finally, at some stage, will make register of farts they will get Equal to God.

micosoft

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117700322#Comment_117700322

Still flogging that dead horse. Never true. Stop getting your news from the Daily Express.

micosoft

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117729298#Comment_117729298

Well you got me there. Such a finely argued point with supporting evidence. 🙄 Meanwhile in the real world...

micosoft

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117732582#Comment_117732582

I think you'll find it's the wet dreams of consumers and retailers who don't have to handle cash anymore. You are free to stick with the barter system until it was replaced by "Wet dreams of bureaucrats" back in the 15th century...

Quick watch-out for. Retailers are not obliged to accept cash. Only tax and settlement of debt is legal tender mandated for. Better stock up on Chickens!