Adoptions and the right to an original birth cert

MrMusician18

As you may or may not know, there is some landmark legislation due next year that will give adoptees the right to a copy of their original birth cert. At the moment, this can only be given out with the consent of the birth mother, of which four objected to last year. The new system will allow access to the cert even when the mother objects and where the mother objects they will be just essentially be asked nicely to not make contact. The media and public discourse generally seems to be lauding this proposal, but I have to admit I have some concerns about the precedent this sets and how we can expect the State to hold private information.

When these adoptions occured, rightly or wrongly, the State promised these women to keep the birth cert confidential. This promise, old as it is, appears to count for nothing and the State is planning to give adoptees rights over the privacy of others. Little meaningful effort is going into balancing the mother's right to privacy with the adoptees right to know. With this precedent set, it appears that the State could choose to make any confidential information available even where it has said in the past that it wouldn't.

This is obviously a controversial and sensitive topic (some posters I'm sure will be affected), but I would be interested in what others think of this. Media debate has been very one sided (the birth mother's obviously don't have the NGO's advocating for then) but there is another legitimate point of view.

Immortal Starlight

I would agree with people being able to get their original birth certificate.

Hotblack Desiato

There can only be one winner here in this conflict of rights and that is to allow full access for adopted adults to their original birth records.

Assuming the nuns didn't falsify them for "a few dollars more" of course... 😠

It’s a question of whose rights are the greatest. The mothers who gave their babies up on the understanding that there would never be any contact, or the now adult babies?

MrMusician18

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117676917#Comment_117676917

I don't think it is a question about the greatest right here. For me at least it's about the State backtracking on a guarantee of privacy - adoptions were done with the understanding that the cert would remain confidential.

Rights can be conflicting, before the 8th was repealed there was the right to life of the unborn and the mother's right to health and there was a careful attempt to balance these rights within the confines of what's permissible. Here, no such balancing is even attempted. If the mother objects, there's a sham conciliation attempted but as the outcome is predetermined, the cert will be released in all cases. That isn't right or fair and to be honest I can't see how it's constitutional either.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117677332#Comment_117677332

I agree with you. A mother who conceived as the result of ignorance, innocence, rape, incest etc and gave up the resulting baby in the belief that she would never be identified, will have no say.

I can understand an adopted child wanting to know it’s history and any information of possible hereditary illnesses, too.

Peregrinus

This is very much a conflict between the rights or interests of the adopted person in knowing their own history and connections, and the rights and interests of the mother in her own privacy. I accept, obviously, that it involves the state backtracking on a policy and so disrupting a legitimate expectation of privacy that was created by that policy, and that's not a trivial thing. But it make no sense to consider this dilemma divorced from the reason why changing the policy is even considered; the rights and interests of the adopted person.

So, yeah, this is very much a conflict of rights. And it's a difficult one; anybody who looks at this and doesn't feel considerable empathy for the people on both sides of this conflict is, well, not seeing the whole picture.

And this is not a conflict in which a compromise solution is possible; the certificate is either released to the adopted person or it isn't; you can't release the certificate just a little bit.

So, given that, it's obvious that someone on one side of this conflict of rights is going to have their rights "trumped" by the rights of the other. It does seem to me that the State has, at a minimum, a duty to support the loser in this conflict, to minimise the disadvantage they suffer. That might mean, for instance, that if the decision is to release the certificate, the state should offer the birth mother practical and counselling support during what follows.

Hotblack Desiato

Jeez you'd think birth certs had the mother's current address, Eircode, PPSN and bank account number the way some are going on. Most will have since married and taken another surname. Many emigrated. Many have since died.

We are so frequently told that baptism registers are a record of a historical event and cannot be changed... yet a record of a historical real, not supernatural, event - a birth - can be suppressed forever as the law currently stands, to the great detriment of the child involved who had no say in being adopted.

Also what about the half-siblings and other relatives of the adopted person? Don't their rights to know and possibly meet their family member not enter into it also?

OP you say 4 birth mothers objected last year. What proportion of the total birth certs is that?

Is it all or only a small proportion?

I'd be fairly wary of overriding the wishes of these women.

MrMusician18

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117678167#Comment_117678167

If birth certs had no data of value contained within them then why do the adoptees want them? Of course you know the answer, with a name and even an old address, it is possible to find someone (usually fairly easy too) these days.

No one is proposing to change the registers here. What I'm saying is that the State promised these women to protect their identities but now it has decided that it no longer wants to do that. First it put them in the position where their babies had to be given up, now wants to take their privacy too? It's simply not fair, or right.

When you listen to advocates, a large part of the motivation for this change is to satisfy an identity curiosity for the adoptee. Is that really a good enough reason to strip someone of their privacy when they object to it?

Hermy

The State made no such promise.

The civil records of all births registered in Ireland are open to public scrutiny.

Admittedly, not every adoptee will have sufficient information to locate the civil record of their birth, but where sufficient information is available an individual can access the record of their birth or anyone else's whose birth was officially recorded.

MrMusician18

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117679112#Comment_117679112

The State did. If no such promise existed, this legislation obviously wouldn't be needed.

While birth records are available, it's the link to the adoption record that is key. Without that link (which is what we are talking about here, if you want to be pedantic), looking for your record in the public register is like trying to find a specific unremarkable needle in a haystack of unremarkable needles.

Op, this is worth a read. And from a quick search, it appears there were approx 45k adoptions in Ireland since 1952. I must admit, I thought the number would be higher.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/opinion/commentanalysis/arid-20278941.html

kerash

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117679099#Comment_117679099

Why don’t you ask an adoptee? Because you sound quite ignorant at the moment. I’d go as far as to wonder if you are flaming here?

Every person in Ireland is legally entitled to privacy i.e not being harassed by unwanted contact. Getting a birth cert does not remove that right.

You are either ignorantly or deliberately confused that legal issue with allowing ease of access to an adopted persons original birth certificate.

B.A._Baracus

Never knew about this. Interesting to read but bit of a slippery topic isn't it?

On one hand if someone who was adopted wanted to know where they were born, to whom etc you would think they would have that right. Sure it's about themselves. But on the other hand if someone put a child up for adoption I guess they have a right to remain nameless. We sadly do not live in a world where everyone is level-headed. A person could gain that information and harass their biological mother or something.

You could also throw in a right to know if someone's family tree is susceptible to certain illnesses or something like legal right? Ahh, I dunno, it all seems a slippy mess.

BattleCorp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117679215#Comment_117679215

It is higher. I personally know of some illegal adoptions that won't show up on any register.

BattleCorp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117679112#Comment_117679112

Yeah, that's not correct.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117680128#Comment_117680128

I'm adopted. If I sling you my details can you tell me if I was illegal or not:-)

MojoMaker

If an adopted person would like to access their original birth record (note: not the cert, but the actual ledger entry) drop into the church that holds your baptism and in the relevant year's dusty old ledger you'll find a complete record of the event, often with both parents names.

Pretty scary.

You have to jump through serious hoops in the civilian world to get the same information, if you can at all (prior to this pending legislation), but maddeningly it's sitting there, hidden in plain sight.

nullzero

The state made promises to birth mothers and handed responsibility for the entire adoption process over to the Catholic church.

The system was a joke and the rights of all involved weren't considered by anyone.

The notion that adopted people are plotting to ambush their birth parents is comical. A lot of the birth parents of Irish adopted people are at this stage old or dead. The notion that you shouldn't have the right to know where you came from or if you are at risk of developing an illness that has a history of affecting people in your birth family is disgusting in the extreme.

The entire process of adoption was based in shame, the shame of an "illegitimate" pregnancy the shame of what people would think, mothers being hidden away for the final months of their pregnancies. It's all in the past now, those who want to keep their babies do, those who don't get a termination. Adopted Irish people are a dying breed who have been given no support by the system that dealt with the "shame" of their birth and for once their voices are being listened to we have people whinging on the internet about promises made by a government who abdicated responsibility for all of what adoption was because it was too much of a headache for them to deal with themselves. The OP's opinion is a joke and they should be ashamed of themselves.

MrMusician18

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117680357#Comment_117680357

To claim this just whinging is just your way of dismissing the argument without engaging with it.

While the previous adoption system was wrong, it was the system that was in place and those that were in it knew the rules. And the rule was that mother's identities would remain confidential in all circumstances.

Why exactly should I be ashamed of myself for having an opinion that the wishes of these women to have their identities protected, as they were promised, kept? If there's anything disgusting here, is your opinion that these women should be outed against their will.

Well, like I mentioned earlier, I'm one of those few adopted Irish people, so if anyone wants to ask any questions - fire away. Tell me why I shouldn't be allowed to find out where I'm from.

(I'm hoping it's not Longford.)

The ball is in your court, Op.

nullzero

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117680541#Comment_117680541

"Outed" is a word that says a lot about you and your opinion on this topic.

The system that was in place was bad for all involved and the notion that people having the right to access their birth certificates being a bad thing is mind boggling.

Adopted people in this country essentially have no rights whatsoever when it comes to being able to understand where they came from. You are of the opinion that the privacy of the birth parents being more important than the rights of their adopted children is ludicrous. The adopted children had no say in their situation at all, birth parents had difficult decisions to make and were railroaded in a lot of circumstances but they at least knew what was going on.

Does an adopted person not have the right to understand their background? To know if they are at risk from a hereditary disease?

You speak as if adopted people are wringing their hands at the prospect of being able to doorstep their birth parents. Most just want to know who their parents were and respect their privacy.

You are making a mountain out of a molehill and attempting to claim the moral high ground out of some reverence for a promise made by a negligent government who wanted to wash their hands of all responsibility in relation to adoption.

Your opinion is based on assumptions (people will be "outed") and is hysterical whinging nonsense that shows empathy for one affected group and absolutely none for the other. You think me saying that is dismissing the argument without engaging in it (all I've done is engage in it so far).

I stand by my previous comment, you should be ashamed of your opinion on this topic as it has no basis in fact and supposes that all adopted people are hell bent on invading the lives of their birth parents.

MrMusician18

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117680636#Comment_117680636

Well what other word would you use to describe the release of personal information about you that you did not want released? 4 women last year didn't want it, why should their rights be steamrolled?

And this isn't about adopted people invading the lives of birth parents. It's about respecting the rights of the small number of women that want the their privacy respected, as they were promised. Where two parties have a stake in a situation do you think only one side can give consent? Even when one side expressly states that they don't?

And how can you know how much empathy I have for the adoptees? I have acknowledged that this is difficult stuff and as one poster above correctly states this is one that doesn't naturally have a compromise position - you either share the document or you don't. What I argue is that there was absolutely no nuance in the proposed legislation and that it is completely one sided, no common consent required.

Dude, write what you know is the thing I live by. Did you read the article I posted? Most women in Ireland were "steamrolled" into giving up their outside of marriage children since 1952. Get back to me when you've talked to one adopted person:-)

nullzero

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117680693#Comment_117680693

The legislation isn't perfect, but a reasonable system has never been in place and the time it would take to establish one now and it's lack of an ongoing use beyond, say the middle of this century means it will never be established.

You are assuming there are only the birth parents and the adoptees involved. In the case of getting an understanding of medical histories for example, some hereditary diseases can skip a generation and can have serious impacts on the lives of the grandchildren of the people whose right to privacy you value above everything else in this situation.

It's not an ideal situation but there are greater things at stake here than the privacy of birth parents and if making birth certificates available to adopted people is the only solution it's how it has to be. Four women last year didn't want to have their adopted children's birth certificates handed over, not four hundred or four thousand. The numbers involved are extremely low, and while it's sad these people's privacy isn't being respected it isn't the most important issue in this situation.

You are talking about this as if adopted people shouldn't have the right to demand to know where they came from, as if they are some sort of illegitimate group who have some unfair advantage in this situation when in reality they are a small group of people who have been treated terribly. If we look at the rights of adoptees versus the rights of birth parents, over the years the number of birth parents whose rights have been respected versus the small number of remaining adopted persons who will benefit from this change (many won't even care about it) the advantage is stacked vastly in the favor of the former.

This legislation is in effect too little too late and you choose to appropriate it as some sort of scandalous slap in the face to the rights of birth parents, that's why your opinion is invalid.

MrMusician18

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117680751#Comment_117680751

I'm well aware they were steamrolled in most cases into giving their children up.

That doesn't change the fact that in 2022, regardless if birth mothers consent or not that their information will be shared.

I'd argue that common consent should be a necessity, not an irrelevance. And that works both ways.

It seems a little like....

1952: "Ladies, we know what's best, give up the child"

2021: "Ladies, we know what's best, we're giving out your information no matter what you want"

nullzero

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117680776#Comment_117680776

The adopted children don't even enter that equation. A large number of whom are women also.

Yeah, you're arguing from a point of no experience though. That's the annoying thing. You've just latched onto something you've read and belched it out there on a thread without thinking too much about anyone that might actually have something to do with it.

Hermy

Ten years ago I searched for and found the civil record of my birth.

This eventually led me to my birth mother (since deceased), and more recently, my birth father.

Neither of them wished to be party to any promise of secrecy imposed upon them by Church and State and were as much victims of those draconian times as I was.

Sadly, the unwillingness of successive governments (till now) to deal with the past mishandling of adoption in Ireland has perpetuated the notion that a child born out of wedlock should be a cause of shame to be kept hidden leading so many birth mothers to fear 'being outed'.

While still allowing everyone their privacy, this proposed legislation if delivered as promised, will finally bring an end to the secrecy and many affected parties will discover their fears are groundless.

Thanks for sharing that. I've known I was adopted since I knew what the word adopted meant. I've never had the urge to find out who my birth parents were. But, I do think that it should be possible for those who want that information. With a bit of luck the new legislation will make that happen.

MrMusician18

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117680862#Comment_117680862

How will the proposed legislation keep everyone's privacy when it's specifically overrules birth mothers who do not consent?

It's another fine example of legislation by NGO

Dude, read the room:-)

Strumms

Every child, person should have access to their original birth certificate. It is ‘their’ record of birth not their parents property.

if two people conceive a child, a mother brings it into the world they should not be of the ability to hide this document or keep it from the child applying to be in possession of it or a copy of it.

Hermy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117680915#Comment_117680915

That's not privacy - that's secrecy.

And that secrecy is at the heart of the issue, perpetuating the myth that there's something that ought to be hidden.

There's no good reason in the world why the identity of a child's parents should be hidden from that child.

It's past time that we accepted this and let the light in on this dark chapter in Irish history.

Hermy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117680325#Comment_117680325

That's not a birth record, and even if it was, you can't just waltz up to the church and demand to see that dusty old ledger.

Many of those ledgers are now in the possession of Archbishops House and, in my case at least, it did not contain both parents names.

alibab

I am adopted also . I applied online via gro with what info I had basically a idea where I was born , the first name given to me at birth and my DOB . I had the birth certificate in 10 minutes as there was only one child born on that day in that area with same name . My dad was not named and she slightly altered name .

from that I know exactly where to find her . I got her marriage certificate and and could knock on doorstep tomorrow. I have even found her Facebook page .

What will I do with this info absolutely nothing. I know I am a secret she doesn’t want found . I tried 15 years ago to get medical information and she refused. Very clear no way would even provide that . I know all about her from stuff I can get online .

I will not be making contact and I will not be bothering her . I respect her wish for privacy and have no interest in upending her world .

Lillyfae

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117680915#Comment_117680915

Why do you think privacy should be the priority here? If some unforeseen health issue arose in myself or my children I would want to know as a matter of urgency what I was dealing with. I would demand it. One way of gaining insight into this is to access health information from your descendants. My birth cert is my information. It contains information about other people but it is my information.

My heart goes out to women shamed into giving up their children historically but there is no shame anymore. Perpetuating the secrecy surrounding historical births and adoptions does nothing for their "shame", and can actively damage their children and grandchildren.

MrMusician18

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117681228#Comment_117681228

It's not about secrecy, it's privacy and respecting the wishes and the previously legally guaranteed expectations of that birth mother. While you may not know of any good reason why birth mother's might want to remain anonymous, there are some that have their own reasons for wanting to. Who are you to judge them? I suppose State knows best, is that it?

Most birth mother's consent to the information being made available, but it's the principle of consent that's important here. They could at least wait until the women have passed away where an agreed solution cannot be come to.

BattleCorp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117680888#Comment_117680888

I'm also adopted and, like you, never had the inclination to go look for my birth parents.

I'm in two minds on this legislation to be honest. I see the benefit for adopted people being able to have access to their birth cert but I don't like the fact that the new proposed legislation tramples over the birth mother's right to anonymity.

Strumms

A solution could be to redact the full name of the parents...

instead of Liam Kelly / Ann Kelly, the copy of the cert and section just reads the record Father : Lxxx Kelly / Mother : Axxx Kelly.

Lillyfae

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117682026#Comment_117682026

What would be the point of that?

Hotblack Desiato

People banging on about "privacy".

If a birth mother states she does not wish to be contacted, and is not contacted, then her privacy is being respected.

As Hermy said, what some here are calling for has nothing to do with privacy, and everything to do with secrecy.

From the linked article:

Mothers who allow themselves to remember tend to talk more about their experiences and are generally those who will try to seek out their children, often approaching the adoption agency, who will (in all cases I have encountered) contact the adoptive parents of the (adult) adopted person instead of the adopted person themselves.

Says it all really. Adoptees are still not regarded as people in their own right and people with rights. They are treated as a parcel passed from one set of parents to another.

One thing I'm confused about - all medical records are strictly private and confidential. Covered by data protection laws, GDPR, etc.

Finding your birth parents identity does not mean you will be allowed access to that person's medical history, to find out about hereditary illness etc. They have to give it to you, and that means contact and consent.

Or will that be the next step in the removal of the birth parents right to privacy?

I do understand the perspective of adopted people, yet I'm really conflicted on how I feel about the removal of the right to privacy of the birth mother.

Lillyfae

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117682099#Comment_117682099

Nobody says that birth parents will be forced to give up their medical records to their children, I know who my parents are and I can't force them to give up their medical information, but the mechanism of being able to ask should be there.

This has nothing to do with privacy and everything to do with secrecy and shame.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117682124#Comment_117682124

But will that be the next step?

Once you start removing rights, I would be concerned where it would end. That's all I'm saying.

Lillyfae

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117682153#Comment_117682153

But rights have already been removed from adopted people. Actually, they weren't removed, they never had them in the first place!

Drumpot

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117680805#Comment_117680805

I’m adopted , honestly don’t know what to think of this. Not really something I’ve paid attention to.

From a health POV I do think adoptees should have some sort of access to birth parents. Whether it’s through an intermediary (Barnardos etc), doesn’t matter. Regardless of why a child is given up for adoption I think the biological parents should be at least encouraged to provide medical and hereditary information that can at least help the adoptee look out for any family illness. I’ve Found out there is autism, heart disease and addictions within my biological family.

My biological parents seeked me out and contacted my dad out of the blue to meet me when I was still in school. I have no rights, no protection and never had any support to help me understand how to deal with it.

This isn’t just about woman’s rights, it’s about people on all sides who have been effected by a poorly managed system. Does this legislation fix things? No, I’m not even sure it makes any difference to me, but the conversation needs to be about what’s good for all, not creating one set of victims.

I didn’t have a choice in being adopted. I’ve had to deal and manage the gravity of that decision all my life. Not everybody feels the same but I’ve struggled to value myself and from an early age (when I found out I was adopted) I unfortunately felt I was an unwanted Raggy doll , discarded and unloved. I was looked after by nuns (think I was in st Patrick’s) for a few months and only now am I starting to look at how no motherly love or bonding for those months might of made it hard for me to connect with others.

Ive not Met my biological parents, partially because I didn’t like how they tried to meet me. They found me and used to watch me in school apparently without my knowledge . But as a parent now I understand their pain, I empathise that things were different back then and they must of found it so hard to move on from giving me up. They prob should of done things through Barnardos but as usual the state doesn’t really take much responsibility for issues it’s caused unless it really has to so the supports aren’t really there to help adoptees or parents who gave children up for adoption.

So my point is that the conversation should not be about one element of adoption, it needs to be about all aspects and all parties. Otherwise it’s just one side taking up a cause “protect birth mothers” and ignoring the adoptees because it suits what you want to believe. I’ve tried to understand decisions by my birth parents, there needs to be a similar effort to understand adoptees on the other side.

Lillyfae

Thank you for sharing, Drumpot. That sounds very difficult.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117681348#Comment_117681348

In the above post, (which I did not see before my last post), you yourself stated:

"If some unforeseen health issue arose in myself or my children I would want to know as a matter of urgency what I was dealing with. I would demand it."

This is what I would be concerned about. Would the next step being adoptees having a right to demand their birth parents' medical records?

As a single parent who has raised a child with multiple medical issues alone and without the benefit of the father's medical history, (I don't know how many times over the last 20 odd years I've had to tell a HCP that I had no information on that side of her family) - I get it.

But I'm sorry, I just can't get on board with the removal of the birth parents' right to privacy, and any disclosure of their personal information, be it their identity or their medical history, should be voluntary.

(eta) or through an intermediary as mentioned by drumpot.