Mayo GAA Discussion

Blackjack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117890267#Comment_117890267

I was thinking about this one - I didn't get to see the other games you mention. The one I've linked is from 2017 right enough.

charlie14

I haven`t been on this thread for some time for various reasons and after the Kerry v Tyrone semi I was tempted to give my thoughts but refrained as I didn`t not want to be looked upon as some sort of Tyrone fifth columnist trying to kill the buzz of the great victory over Dublin. Even though being from Donegal should automatically rule me out as a Tyrone fifth columnist. My thoughts then were the team ye wanted in the final was Kerry not Tyrone. Kerry`s backs are poor enough. They are basically one on one and as such I would have rated your forwards in that sense to go to town on them.Mayo forwards v Tyrone backs was always going to be a different scenario.

But that is history at this stage. What really shocked me was how ill-prepared Mayo were for what Tyrone were going to bring. Had anyone even looked at Tyrone`s games in Ulster or the Kerry game even. Tyrone didn`t bring any new tactical game. They played the game they have been playing all year. Even down to their second half substitutes. Somebody said here early that Mayo forwards played the correct game, don`t shoot from outside the 45 and don`t shoot from the wings. That is what exactly what Tyrone want you to do. Underestimating their midfield was also a very bad mistake. Their midfield has been solid all year and anything that breaks their half-back line are on it like wolves. Everybody and their mother knew that McShane was coming on and Tyrone have always had a tactic of getting the new man in on the ball as soon as possible to fell his way into the game. McShane comes in and he is left one on one at the edge of the square. Like 2012 it was assisted suicide. There are a few other examples, but tbh it`s too depressing to get into at this stage.

kippy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117890121#Comment_117890121

I've addressed this earlier - but you simply cannot apply this "Culture" nonsense to a sporting group - for many different reasons.

Mayo have been one of the highest performing groups in this country in the past decade - to suggest otherwise is just pure nonsense. You don't get to as many AI finals as we have withouth a high perfomance attitude.

Again, we are all trying to scramble for reasons that we didnt win again - reasons that can be addressed in a real manner, not some "culture" nonsense.

Are you gonna blame "culture" if this Tyrone team dont win next year or if Dublin return?

Fanofconnacht

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117890656#Comment_117890656

Can you expand on this and detail the "many different reasons"

You really don't understand the concept of organisational culture if you think it means that you win every year if you have a winning culture. Even the All Blacks who many believe have one of the best sporting organisational cultures of any team globally don't win every game or every world cup.

manofwisdom

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117887379#Comment_117887379

Wouldn't have been a penalty as O'Connor wouldn't have miss hit the free. Also if Cillian had played O’Donoghue wouldn't have scored 0-8 as he wouldn't be the main free taker.

2013 AI final was a 1 point defeat for Mayo . I seen a lot of simliartites on Saturday with very similar team performances by Dublin and Tyrone.

tobefrank321

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117890656#Comment_117890656

You obviously don't understand what culture is and how it links to defects in a team, squad or management.

I don't even see any point explaining it you.

Don't worry you're not alone. All those centrally involved in Mayo football don't understand it either and they probably couldn't spell high performance. I always got the feeling with the Mayo County Board that reaching the final was good enough.

And the culture starts with the County Board because they have a big say in how things are run.

While Tyrone have their centre of excellence up and running and already producing great results at all levels, Mayo is still at the planning stage.

Mayo GAA asked to provide answers about planned centre of excellence | Connaught Telegraph (con-telegraph.ie)

2018na

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117889793#Comment_117889793

They would beat Tyrone by 10 points pulling up

dunnerc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117891816#Comment_117891816

Your talking nonsense

CatInABox

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117891816#Comment_117891816

As a Dub, I can safely say that this is just silly. As much as it pains me to say it, we'd have taken a hammering from Tyrone, and probably from Kerry too.

dunnerc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117892704#Comment_117892704

100% agreed CatInABox

ethical

Its time to lay off the players.They had to get up and go to work on Monday.Some "fans" reckon they can throw all sorts of sh1t at a player when he does not perform to his usual standards.If this same player was receiving 250,000 per week as in other PROFESSIONAL codes perhaps then it would be ok to point out his short-comings (but at the same time to keep it clean and not personalise it).It should not be done to lads that did their best and unfortunately their best was not good enough on the day.We all know the question is already being asked of who will Mayo play in next years final....beacuse we will be there or thereabout again.The Mayo team (the players that is) and the fans have contributed more finance to the GAA economy in the last 10 years than all other counties added together (except for perhaps Dublin,due to the population and jersey sales etc.).There are an awful lot of "hangers on" making money out of the "success" of the team,and it is a success,eventhough we did not get over the line yet.

Unfortunately the GAA still has the biscuit tin mentality and why change,it has served many "administrators" well,they have rasied families on it,forgone criticism when things go wrong (as is the case now!),how many of them have come out in the past few days and stood up for the players that have been ostracised? They sit back and let the players take the flak.Yes,we all know there is the "some are more equal than others" mentality in the GAA,(thats no different to other walks of life really!),should it happen,no it shouldnt,but it does.It happens in the squad as well but do not point it out or you will be torn to shreds by ignorant people.The cash cow is delivering to the same group of sh1ts over a life time and its not going to change anytime soon....those sh1ts that have been on County Boards for a life time (and I'm not talking 5 yrs here),everyone knows who they are ,they dine off the "fatted calf" every year and then go hiding when the lads out on the field have an off day.Those people are spineless leeches and at this stage have made a good cash living at the expense of the poor players.Its past time they stood down...and please do not reply with the same old line of "why dont clubs put officers forward ,blah,blah.blah and those sh1ts would not be around.........................

Fanofconnacht

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117893340#Comment_117893340

I agree with a lot of what you are saying. The only thing is I am not sure you appreciate the money that can be made from social media which is dependent on the number of followers you have. So while players may not be making €250k a week there are some who could be making €2k a week by virtue of being a player with a high profile \ large number of followers. If you put yourself out there as a media star you have to accept both the good and the bad, whether you are Cristian Ronaldo, one of the Kardashians, or a Mayo player.

eastie17

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117890647#Comment_117890647

Spot on, said the same myself watching the semis, but having said that it doesn't look like you can trace a form line for a James Horan team from a season before the final and the final itself. 3 times we've had this now, he clearly hasn't changed since the first coming and wont at this stage.

charlie14

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117893767#Comment_117893767

Teams would generally be at the peak of fitness on winning their provincial championship. From that on training is all about tactics. What I found most disappointing is that this year with no quarter finals, or especially the Super 8`s, tactically the road ahead was a much clearer picture. What was even more disappointing was I didn`t see anything new from Tyrone in the final and not only did Mayo not bring anything new, they did not even upset the tactical plan Tyrone had been using throughout this championship.

I see there has been a fair bit of comment on some players doing well commercially. I would not begrudge amateur players that literally put their lives on hold to play for their counties a red cent, but from the old cliche of there being no I in team, a pooled system would probably be more equitable

muddle84

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117893906#Comment_117893906

I completely disagree on the pooling of commercial income. I'm going to use AOS as an example here as he is the biggest brand on the Mayo team at the moment. Why should he share his earnings with the likes of Colm Boyle who does little to no social media work or public endorsements. At the end of the day AOS is getting all those interviews and endorsements because of the amount of followers he has on instagram or the likes. He doesn't have that many followers solely because of what he does or doesn't do on the pitch, its because of how active he is on the platform which takes time and effort!

charlie14

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117894543#Comment_117894543

My fault for not perhaps phrasing it properly.

The player that commercial bodies are prepared to pay for endorsememts and appearances would get a greater share of the pot than team-mates as he/she would be putting in the work, but at the same time they didn`t catch the eye of commercial bodies because they are athletes in a single decipline. They would have caught the eye because they were part of a team that was getting wide media coverage. Pooling of resources recognises that and can make life much easier for management in that it would lessen any possible disgruntlement within a team.

There have been some outstanding players for teams that have not had the kind of results that have resulted in wide-spread media coverage, and I cannot reacall any of those players getting any great commercial interest. To use another old cliche, when it comes to team sports no man is an island, and in fairness, especially in GAA, when interviewed star players a very good at pointing that out, crediting others on the team for their contribution for a good result Unfortunately, and again, sorry for another cliche, but when it comes to money the phrase talk is cheap can easily lead to discord.

muddle84

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117894854#Comment_117894854

No i think you phrased it well enough, I get your point. The profile is there from the team I agree, if AOS was a postman he wouldn't have the opportunity to build his brand! But at the same time, Emilyn Mulligan doesn't have nearly 6k twitter followers for his teams playing exploits so why should he have to share out earnings with his team mates when its him that puts in the effort? Maybe I'm just a greedy so and so and that's why i think that way! :)

tobefrank321

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117893340#Comment_117893340

The criticism of the players has been fair and proportionate, leaving aside anything related to commercial activities, which most intercounty players are involved in. Only a relatively small number of players from a few counties will ever win an AI. Does that mean every other player shouldn't avail of commercial activities?

On the question of player criticism, under performing players were rightly criticized. There's a long running trend with Mayo of some players showing up on AI final day and not trying a leg or being half hearted. If they can't be bothered trying on AI final day, they shouldn't be wasting everyone's time.

Its disappointing to see some players give it their all in finals, while others just go through the motions. Criticism of the latter players is justified, whether they are postmen or whatever.

charlie14

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117894947#Comment_117894947

If I was lucky enough to be in the position I would in all likelihood be a greedy so and so myself :), but if it came to being a member of a team and seeing a small group enjoying the commercial benefits, I would most likely be a disgruntled so and so as well as I would see myself as putting as much effort in training and performing that has got us the commercial interest as those that are reaping the rewards.

As I said, as a supporter I do not begrudge amateur GAA players a single red cent they make. Don`t get me wrong I`m not even suggesting or implying it may be a problem within the Mayo squad, but with a team that is at the level where the margins between winning or losing the ultimate prize are so fine, it is something if I was the manager, I would be very wary off.

tobefrank321

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117895306#Comment_117895306

I don't think its a problem. A lot of great players had significant commercial activities, eg Bernard Brogan and Cillian O'Connor as well as countless others.

The commercial activities impacting players is a red herring invented by Joe Brolly. Its jealousy I'd say.

A lot of people Brolly included make a sh*tload of money off the back of the GAA and the players efforts and then they begrudge the players making a few quid. Its disgraceful and needs to be called out.

Blackjack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117895016#Comment_117895016

I think a lot of the criticism has been way over the top, to be honest. There's no issue with pointing out where certain things have not met expectation. However a lot of what has been said - particularly by one columnist has been very personal and way over the top.

Then you have the dregs of social media and that is just out of control altogether.

ultrapercy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117895016#Comment_117895016

A player struggling to get themselves into a game is not the same as not trying. I don't think I've ever seen a Mayo player not try in any match never mind a final. It's too much committment and sacrafice in their lives not to try.

tobefrank321

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117895336#Comment_117895336

Presume you mean Brolly and yes he goes over the top and personalises it. I don't agree with that approach.

If he stuck to a general point about culture without picking out names that would have been better. And when he brings up the commercial activities stuff, its just nonsense.

Like all controversial pundits he makes the odd good point but then ruins it with some over the top crap.

tobefrank321

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117895379#Comment_117895379

The ball drops on front of you and you make a lazy attempt at striking it. Or you are within shooting range and hit it well short, etc etc. There was numerous examples of players just not making that extra effort to win an AI. Contrast it with winning teams like Tyrone who put their bodies on the line. And before someone brings up particular Mayo players, I've already said that at least half the team give it their all, so its a pity when 3 or 4 players don't. You can't win AIs carrying the number of passengers Mayo have in some of their finals. And their best finals were the ones where there was no passengers, eg 2016 (first game) and 2017. And as for player struggling to get into a game, it happens. They should be hauled off. That's what great managers do, see a problem and fix it. Not wait until its too late and then are wise after the game.

Blackjack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117895439#Comment_117895439

Yes, and when someone takes that approach, it's usually because they're talking through their hole. There's a narrative in the GAA that we must somehow his word should be treated as gospel because he won a medal. I was otherwise occupied when the football was happening 28 years ago when he won his, by all accounts he was a bit of a passenger on that team. If he had all the answers, he'd be managing some teams, which he never has and he never will. He hasn't the stones for that.

His point on culture is certainly over egged and Brolly has a history of talking through his hole about Gilroy and others - e.g. the Story about Daragh McAuley's boots before the Donegal game etc. How anyone gives that amadán an ounce of credibility is beyond me.

charlie14

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117895329#Comment_117895329

I d get your point on pundits but I would not look on them in anyway similar to members of a team of amateurs. Especially with the rise of social media platform punditry, which with the exception of a very honorable few in the print media has become the domain of self promoters using controversy to grab attention. Those are not two traits a manager would want around a dressing room.

Not exactly sure, but I seem to recall Pat Gilroy having a problem with some Dublin players making a few bob personally that he thought should be pooled. I don`t know if anything ever became of it, but I do know he publicly blinded Bernard Brogan out of it for feeling he was a bit special in that there was no need for him to track his man around the same time. Kerry also had a pool system at one stage I believe, but whether that is still the case or not I do not know

LeoB

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117880128#Comment_117880128

The last thing I wanted to do was to be critical of any player in any county, that was not my intention if I came across that way. There is no doubt about the passion in Mayo same as Louth, Leitrim Carlow Wicklow.

I disagree about the level the players are at. Durkan, Keegan, Ruane, O'Hora, Conroy, Mullan and a few other are the among the best in Ireland. Looking at Dublin team and squad there are a good few players who dont particularly stand out at club level. They are good players no doubt but what they have in a very strong mentality and ability under pressure to do very simple things well. As I pointed out Mayo should have bet Dublin twice and Kerry should have beat them once. I believe Mayo are better than what we saw in final.

Has an air of doubt got to this squad? I cant put my finger on it.

LeoB

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117879175#Comment_117879175

Mayo moved players around to stop certain Dublin players. That works two ways. Are you telling one player he is not good enough to mark Paul Mannion or Diarmuid Connolly? I think that is negative for a county like Mayo, Dublin or Kerry to do. There was nothing between the sides and I felt Higgins and Keegan who were flying would have caused Dublin if left alone to play their natural game.

Easy for me to say that as Im sure the pressure on management and team was enormous. But while only at club level I never changed my starting team but always used our strengths as was easier to swap during a game I felt. I see it as a vote of confidence in a lad to leave him to take on star man of opposition. In todays game the players are so well conditioned and drilled maybe we move them to much?? They are all over the place such is their fitness. Tyrone appear to take nearest man.

Avon8

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117901294#Comment_117901294

How on earth should Mayo have beaten Dublin twice? In 16 & 17 Mayo were getting beaten in their province, were drawing with the might of Derry, Cork, Roscommon etc, struggling over Fermanagh. Dublin were wiping the floor with everyone else basically. Mayo turned the finals into chaos and matched up well with Dublin and Dublin underperformed their ability. Only once did Dublin play up to themselves against Mayo in the last decade, the 20 mins after half time in 2019 when they tore them asunder. You're delusion if you think the talent levels in the respective squads was or is comparable.

Of the players you mentioned, one is currently at the very top class (Durkan). Keegan is one of the greatest of all time but has taken 3 roastings in 3 years. He's still excellent granted but needs the right matchup. O'Hora wasn't good enough to start this year until age 28, him being amongst the best in Ireland is laughable. Ruane had a great year but only a headcase would put him on the same level as Fenton or McCarthy. Even the likes of Enda Smith is a better player than him still at this point. Same with Conroy, very classy for a young lad but you'd be sectioned if you put him up with Clifford, Con, McBrearty etc.

How many Mayo forwards would make the Dublin team? Conroy probably and you're struggling after. Same with Kerry, you be hard pushed to say Mayo's second best ROD is better than Killian Spillane (a sub). Tyrone had two forwards on the bench the last day that you could argue are more talented than any mayo starting forward.

If you're going to somehow convince yourself that it's a team full of superstars despite no underage or club evidence I fear you're going to be disappointed year after year no matter how well the team perform on the whole, such as this year

Fanofconnacht

Looking to next year what I ask myself is going to be different that will change the result.

County Board ? No definitely not. They will do a review \ report that will say "all is great, great mamangement team , great players all being given the resources and support they need to succeed. Team was unfortunate with injuries this season and we were hampered by the unforeseen delay between AI Semi and Final. OH and we would like to thank all the Mayo supporters for being the greatest in the Country".

"We would like to condemm all those nasty journalists for saying mean things about the Mayo team who have a great culture".

Manager ? Maybe he will do the honourable thing and resign. 7 chances and no AI, Time to go.In the history of the GAA has there been any Intercounty Manager who has lasted 7 years without an AI or one who managed to win an AI on his 8th attempt. It is very unlikely that he will do any different next year re preparation, tactics etc etc. Also unlikely he will dump the veterans who have been with him for a decade and who now need to go. So pretty much same result losing in either Semi or Final.

Players ? Again unlikely. If JH stays panel will be pretty much the same. Some peripheral players will leave and some new peripheral ones will join, with maybe 1 breakthrough star. They will do pretty much the same stuff and deliver pretty much the same result.

Will we see a players revolt against Management ? If Holmes\Connelly not considered good enough after failing to deliver once, and rumours of a potential push against Rochford after 3 failures, why would JH be acceptable after 7 failures ?

Thus according to Einstein Mayo is insane as we keep doing the same stuff over and over and each time we expect a different result.

Is our football the source of the saying "Mayo god help us"