Covid denying friend had a meltdown over me getting vaccinated

LegacyUser

Hi all,
I was hoping to get some advice about how to manage with my friend (who also happens to be my employee, but we're friends first) who is a covid denier and is anti-vaccination.

She has been increasingly worried about the civil rights repercussions of all of the restrictions, which I get, however this has all been in parallel with their views that the virus is just a flu, and that the vaccines are dangerous and unnecessary.

Soon after the first lockdown, she went down the rabbit hole of what I would view to be dodgy websites, youtube videos, finding a video of a doctor who is 'speaking out' and concluding that all the rest are corrupt, etc. She's anti-mask, has attended protests, flaunts and ridicules any safety or caution, etc. I tried to debate all of this with her many times, but through both of our faults the conversations descended into standoff arguments. We decided to just ban the topic to avoid confrontation.

Things came to a head when vaccine passports were announced - her reaction was to immediately book and pay for flights to emigrate to another continent where restrictions were less, before vaccine passports were rolled out, to escape what she saw as further oppression and coercion into taking a poisonous vaccine.

Thankfully she calmed down and recognised her reaction was a bit extreme, and sought counselling. I was delighted with this and thought that this was her taking a more balanced view on all of these matters, however it was just a pause.

Fast forward to last week and we went out for some food and drinks after work. She was a bit off, and I suspected that this was from the news of the rollout of vaccine certs for entry into hospitality. Sure enough after a few drinks the conversation went there and it was back to the same topics. Through a fairly heated chat she had loosely agreed that she would talk to a GP to ask them questions about Covid and the vaccines, after I argued that she had never spoken to someone who knows more about all of this than her. Since she doesn't trust her own GP (for unrelated & genuine reasons) she put it to me that I should arrange for her to see my GP, and that if he can't answer her questions then she'll know she is right and everyone else is wrong.

I wasn't entirely comfortable with this, I've had the same GP for decades and didn't like the idea of bringing her in for what could essentially have been a confrontational argument out of the blue. In any case I agreed but was still (with a few drinks on me) challenging her on what type of questions she'd be asking etc. By this stage it was getting late and I was getting more pissed off and told her I've to be up in the morning, and stupidly let it out that I have my first vaccine appointment first thing - admittedly I wanted to show her that this was how much I disagreed with her on all of this. Very unhealthy dynamic, I know.

She lost it, she cried and begged me not to go to the appointment. She shouted and threatened me, told me she was quitting, was clinging on to me and begging me to cancel the appointment. She lambasted me for trying to convince her to talk to a GP when I'm not even willing to do so myself before taking it, etc.

She was sitting on steps screaming and crying, we were in a dodgy area of town and it was late, people were passing by staring over and I was very conscious of how it might have looked that I was being abusive towards her and someone getting the wrong idea, I was calmly asking her to walk with me but she was screaming at me to leave her alone. I wasn't going to leave her there by herself and she was refusing to get a taxi. Eventually she came along and I walked her home.

I went to get the vaccine in the morning. She texted me asking if everything was okay and if there was anything I needed. I thanked her and said all was fine. She texted me later on saying if she said anything that hurt me the night before she was sorry, that she didn't handle it well but that it was all out of worry.

She then texted me saying she wanted to work from home for the next week, because of 'shedding' (a belief that someone vaccinated can infect someone unvaccinated), because she's concerned about her asthma.

At this point I don't know how to handle all of this and I guess I'm posting here to get it off my chest and see if anyone had any advice. I was able to tolerate it all before, I guess because it didn't affect me that much, but after everything last week and her now avoiding me because of 'shedding' it really feels things have gone too far.

Thanks

Hannibal_Smith

I certainly wouldn't be bringing her to my GP. She works with you, is very invested in what you're doing and now wants to go to the same GP. It's a bit too clingy and close for my liking OP! Tell her she needs to take a step back and mind her own business and if she screams at you in the street like that again it's not a friendship you'll be investing in. It doesn't matter what the nub of the issue is, Covid, vaccines or whatever else she has an opinion on, her reaction is not in order and she really should talk to someone about why she's so connected to your life.

ztoical

I'm sorry OP but that's a total OTT reaction and I'd be ignoring her. She's acting like a spoiled toddler. If you must interact with her for work I'd refuse to discus anything to do with Covid/pandemic/vaccine. Either keep all conversation related to work or outside of work change topic to the weather or something. By engaging her in talking about her obsession you are just enabling her. Personally I'd be taking a big step back from her but I understand she's a friend. There is no point trying to argue, it doesn't matter what information you give them they aren't going to accept. The best you can do is to get on with your life and show her by doing that the vaccine isn't such a big deal.

Buddy Bubs

She will probably think she's operating on a higher intellectual level than everyone else and won't respect your opinion. Calling you a sheep etc and not having your own opinion.
I have a family member exactly as you described. I have ignored them for last 4 months, no contact after initially trying to talk them around but realized it was a waste of time.
Same craic, YouTube videos from people claiming to be doctors etc. You should hear the mad ideas that they believe, absolute madness.
Her being an employee complicates things a lot.

id say she's just a bit embarassed with her carry on and at least she apoligised


The fear of "shedding" is scientifically with merit aparently,but difficult to credit in light of attending anti-lockdown protests etc





If it was me,id just let it be one of those embarassing things that never gets spoken about again....theres no value for anyone raking over this again

People are under crazy pressure these days. Things that would have not have even been noticed 2 years ago could break someone now. I'd say try and get past it like Blaaz said and just leave it or you can try find where the source of your friends anxiety is coming from. Guaranteed it's nothing to do with the vaccine.

TheadoreT

There's tonnes of irrational thought processes on her behalf there. She sounds like hard work, whatever about having misguided beliefs but to let it affect her life to the extent it is I wouldn't have anything to do with her. Also as an employee it's concerning that she choses to listen to the opinons of speculative youtubers over actual experts, this is just a terrible trait to have that will spill over to lots of other areas. She sounds like a complete melt to be honest.

Curious_Case

Buddy Bubs wrote: »

She will probably think she's operating on a higher intellectual level than everyone else and won't respect your opinion. Calling you a sheep etc and not having your own opinion.
I have a family member exactly as you described. I have ignored them for last 4 months, no contact after initially trying to talk them around but realized it was a waste of time.
Same craic, YouTube videos from people claiming to be doctors etc. You should hear the mad ideas that they believe, absolute madness.
Her being an employee complicates things a lot.

You've hit the nail on the head, they think they're an "informed, hyper aware, enlightened, chakra glowing, group of ascended beings" !!!

Now I'm the first to admit that governments and corporations conspire to sell us the air we breathe (metaphorically) but that doesn't mean that everything on the 9 'o clock news is "elite propaganda".

listermint

I'd be looking for an exit strategy from the employment and also the friendship to be Ultimately frank

This person will drag you down on all aspects of life. Be in doubt they've most likely messed or destroyed other relationships they have and are clinging to conspiracy as a life bouy to be part of some tribe any tribe .

She's best off taking a break from the internet and finding a hobby.

LegacyUser

OP here, thanks very much for the responses, it'd be great though if we could keep conversation away from general views on conspiracy theorists. She has her views but she's also my friend, her views are a given I'm just trying to figure out the best thing to do, eg if there were any supports or resources she could get more informed guidance from to address her concerns or if anyone had experience in resolving such a situation.

derb12

This sounds like a very unbalanced “friendship”. What do you actually get out of it? By tolerating this irrational person, you are in a sense enabling her. Does she wear a mask at work? I assume that if she is concerned about you “shedding” that you must work closely together, so I really hope you are not agreeing to go maskless to accommodate her. If you take the outburst you described as an example, she is able to behave so childishly putting herself in danger because she knows you won’t abandon her. If you had told her to cop herself on and just walked away, she would have quickly realised how foolishly she was behaving. And the danger she was putting herself in.

I don’t know. Maybe I just am not a very nice person, but I would have zero tolerance for someone who was so easily taken in by YouTube videos and caused me so much grief. I say distance yourself and stay safe.

I hope the vaccine went well.

Janedoe10

That is tough going.
It’s always more diff when you share information ie vaccine information and its then used against you for wrk purposes.

I’m trying to separate this to wrk as u said
Does wrk have any wrk related information on Covid that you can share ? Perhaps ..

For GP referral . It may be good for her to talk to a GP

There is slot of stress out there .info coming at us from so many sources and we have this since mar 2020 .

This person I think was coming from a good place worrying about you however there is a place and a way to do this . Her reaction very irrational

Tork

listermint wrote: »

I'd be looking for an exit strategy from the employment and also the friendship to be ultimately frank

This person will drag you down on all aspects of life. Be in doubt they've most likely messed or destroyed other relationships they have and are clinging to conspiracy as a life buoy to be part of some tribe any tribe.

I'm afraid these were my first thoughts too. I happen to know a couple of people who've gone down the conspiracy theory rabbit hole. They've turned into the equivalent of people I'd cross the street to avoid because they're now painful to be around. Ironically, one of the side effects of Covid is that I haven't had to spend time with either since last year! From what I've read about people who've gone down that route, it's very hard to get them back. It's likely that your friend will continue to buy into all of these beliefs for all sorts of complicated reasons. There are no shortage of places where she can continue to "research" these facts and indeed, she may get worse over time.

There may well come a time when you just get fed up with her and realise you don't want to hang around with her anymore. Already she's testing the boundaries of your friendship and I can see other problems arising in the future. Which brings me onto your comment about her being your employee. Does her job entail dealing with other people or the public? That could bring up a load of problems if she continues to refuse to wear a mask, berates others etc. etc. You can also be sure that once this current crisis goes away, she'll seize onto the next big conspiracy and run with that.

YellowLead

OP I’m not sure why you are friends with this person at all. Is it an act of kindness because you feel sorry for them? You feel obliged because they have been in your life for a period of time and work for you?

ztoical

pathinclude wrote: »

OP here, thanks very much for the responses, it'd be great though if we could keep conversation away from general views on conspiracy theorists. She has her views but she's also my friend, her views are a given I'm just trying to figure out the best thing to do, eg if there were any supports or resources she could get more informed guidance from to address her concerns or if anyone had experience in resolving such a situation.

I'm sorry OP but your friend doesn't want to learn or educate herself or change her beliefs, giving her any information will just make her dig into her views even more. The best thing is to ignore it. Go about your day, if she brings the topic up just say thats nice and change the topic. Your only other option is to ditch her as a friend and treat her like an employee and remove all familiarity to the relationship.

volchitsa

[Deleted User] wrote: »

id say she's just a bit embarassed with her carry on and at least she apoligised

The fear of "shedding" is scientifically with merit aparently,but difficult to credit in light of attending anti-lockdown protests etc

If it was me,id just let it be one of those embarassing things that never gets spoken about again....theres no value for anyone raking over this again

You can only get shedding with a live vaccine. The polio vaccine used to be one and some people did get polio through coming in contact with recently vaccinated people (I’m not sure whether that type of vaccine is still used for polio)

But none of the vaccines used for Covid contain live virus so no, shedding is just not a thing in this case.

secman

Your friend/employee sounds unhinged to say the least, hundreds of millions have been vaccinated and doing their part to eliminate the virus.

pathinclude

pathinclude wrote: »

OP here, thanks very much for the responses, it'd be great though if we could keep conversation away from general views on conspiracy theorists. She has her views but she's also my friend, her views are a given I'm just trying to figure out the best thing to do, eg if there were any supports or resources she could get more informed guidance from to address her concerns or if anyone had experience in resolving such a situation.

I dont think you will change someones deeply held views....life would be boring,if we all taught the same.....theres one lad in work same go as her,hes still an inherently good and sound person,just taken in by foolishness



Her GP would be best for advice/guidence id say.....ultimately the want to return to normal life is whats driving nearly all skeptics/wary people i known to take it

the14thwarrior

i thik this is an unbalanced relationship, and the challenges she sets you (see your GP, if they can't answer her questions she must be right); if you get the vaccination you will infect her, if you make your decisions she acts wildly irrational etc.

you seem caring to the point of over caring
You seem to want her opinion / confidence / almost her permission to do what you believe in.

it really is not good for you to be so overly concerned and involved with her opinions
it is detremental to your and your employees health to have someone hold an opinion that is known to be against all best advice.
you know yourself Covid 19 exists, and can harm and kill people.
you have chosen to do what you feel right

i would be very careful going forward
she needs more help than you know or can give her at this point

Tork

There are loads of articles online about dealing with conspiracy theorists.Here's one from Marianna Spring who's the BBC's Specialist disinformation reporter How should you talk to friends and relatives who believe conspiracy theories?

"For those who have fallen deep down the conspiracy rabbit hole, getting out again can be a very long process.

"Be realistic about what you can achieve," psychologist Jovan Byford warns. "Conspiracy theories instil in believers a sense of superiority. It's an important generator of self-esteem - which will make them resistant to change."

The point here is that there is only so much you can do to help your friend. You can't save her, nor is it your job to do so. Reading between the lines, I get the impression she had issues before Covid ever came along. That hysterical over-reaction to you getting the vaccine is seriously unhinged. Was she always as clingy as this? She sounds like she needs more counselling at the minimum, but probably somebody else might need to take a look at her.

My guess is that you'll tiptoe around her and ignore the elephant in the room for as long as possible. But don't think for one minute that this is going to go away. It isn't. There will be another blow-up at some point and it will then leave you at a crossroads. Will you continue to indulge her to try and save your friendship? Or will you make a stand? How replaceable is she in your business? She has already threatened to quit. It sounds like she is running rings around you and you're the one appeasing her.

sporina

OP I don't know what you can do - or what you wanna do... I think your friend sounds v unwell.. it would be great if she could talk to a professional... might get her on some sort of track.... covid is just a symptom of some other big problem for her me thinks.. is she lonely? feel a lack of control in her life?
If you wanna be a friend, encourage her to talk to someone - mayb your GP - I am sure they will see her stress and anxiety for what it is.. and might offer her help..

Does all of this affect work?

Your relationship doesn't sound healthy tbh - from either side.. I dunno.. take care of you first and foremost.
You won't be able to fix her.. and you should not have to humour her etc - friendship is a 2 way street.. boundaries need to be respected..

Strumms

Don’t engage with her anymore on the subject.

” We’ve already discussed this at length, we are not going to agree. I’d be grateful if you’d respect my wishes that I no longer want to spend time speaking with you or anybody on the topic, thanks.”

if they mentioned it again.. “ sorry but you are now actively jeprodisring our friendship, as I clearly requested this is not a subject which I want to have further discussion with you, please respect this, it’s a private health matter, I’ll only be spending time speaking with my doctor on this subject, thanks.”

Rubberchikken

I realise she's your friend but it's allowing a crossover between work and social that's a recipe for disaster.

She may need to speak to a professional about her opinion on covid/vaccines.

She's entitled to her opinion imo but the two of you dining/drinking and the conversation turning heated in public isn't a good look tbh.

Vaccinated30

See , this whole attitude of

"I don't want to work with you because your vaccinated but don't force me to dine outside because I'm not vaccinated"

It really annoys me! And I don't agree with stopping unvaxxed people dining indoors but then unvaxxed people want to segregate vaccinated people. Where is the logic.

Anyway OP, I have a friend who dosnt agree with vaccines, she's actually one of my best friends, we often have vaccine discussions (long before covid) but we both know how fat to go and respecting each others views. You need to draw a line with your friend and refuse to discuss these things, the only alternative is to ignore her and end the friendship.

atilladehun

Ask your GP to recommend a good GP who can deal with such issues.

stevek93

Wait, so she is a covid denier and believes the virus is just a flu but at the same time is so scared of the virus, because as you said she is worried you will shed the virus after your vaccinated and may infect her? This makes no sense.

It appears why she got so upset is because with the new of you getting vaccinated that she will get sick from it.

So then she knows the risks of the virus and how sick it can make her and she know she is vulnerable with her asthma.

I am in the same situation with my friend, he is believing spoons are sticking to people.

He believes that everything but real information, I am done with speaking to him about covid related topic and he if doesn’t shutup I will be done speaking altogether.

Don’t bring her to your GP, don’t speak anymore about covid or the vaccine or any medical related topics, she has her views and that’s that.

I am not sure why there is so many people like this all of a sudden it is very scary, they have to grow up get jabbed and get on with it.

HildaOgdenx

OP, I have no idea if you are still around, or still reading. Boards being offline has dragged things out. For what it's worth, this has gone a long way beyond what you can be expected to handle. An adult behaving as you have described, needs professional help.

It's very difficult, but imo, all you can suggest is that she seeks out the help she needs. The notion of a doctor explaining something to her, well, where I attend, it's quite difficult still to get past the receptionist (that isn't right either but hopefully you can see the point I am making).

Not to mention who she thought was going to pay the fee for the time the doctor would spend with her.

All that aside, you need to look after yourself, and your own health. Someone like that is incredibly draining to deal with, whether as a friend, or colleague.

OPJuly

Hi everyone OP here, thanks again for all the replies, I checked back in on the thread during the outage to re-read the thread once or twice. 

Well, to give you an update, after working from home for the week my friend asked to meet up to have a chat on the weekend. We met and she was deeply apologetic about her behaviour, she said she was very embarrassed and felt terrible about it all week. She said it wasn't an excuse but she lost the run of herself and her emotions got the better of her. 

I said that it was okay and not to worry, I told her that the main thing for me wasn't one drunken incident but the fact that this whole thing is going way too far. I had hoped that it would be a wake up call for her but unfortunately that doesn't appear to be the case. Whatever regrets she has about her reaction on the night do not extend to any of her views that may have driven that reaction. 

I asked her if she wanted to talk to a GP, but she said GPs don't know about this stuff and while they know about general medicine, if they can't answer her questions about the vaccine it'll make her feel worse. She said she doesn't think the government / HSE are corrupt per se, but very misguided.

She said she DID talk to a doctor (an MD rather than GP, so I knew it'd be suspect) who advised her on the vaccine 'shedding' period, she made reference to him being a proponent of 'terrain theory' which I looked up and sure enough it has crossover with anti-vaccination views. So, she found one of the only doctors who is anti-vaccination and sought advice from them about this and in the week since, she even paid to sign up to their seminar where they'll go into more information about covid19 vaccines. 

From this I tried explaining that with the internet being the internet, she is determining her own outcome here and driving herself further down the rabbit hole and the path she is on will result in her being more afraid and more isolated. She said if it was a choice of living by herself on a mountain and taking the vaccine, she'd choose the mountain.

I told her that I feel she's acting out of fear, and reminded her that at the start of the pandemic we were both terrified and that I feel she went looking for reassurance that the virus wasn't real and she found the answers she was looking for, because internet. She feels that everyone else is allowing themselves to be blindly lead and not questioning anything. 

She said that she didn't tell her counsellor about the meltdown because it's too embarrassing. 

She said she’s trying to take the view to ‘live with it’, that all of this stuff is beyond her control and she is just going to have to take it as it comes and try not to let it affect her, to live and let live. 

Personally I’m trying to hold the same view but when it does flare up I find it hard. I see it as pure wilful ignorance and complete arrogance, acting through pure bias. The nature of our friendship is that we are quite close and with work as well there is the element of depending on each other too, but this makes me really question her capacity in some professional aspects and whether you can maintain a meaningful friendship with someone with such an elephant in the room. I’m torn between going all out and sitting down with her to let her express and debate her views in a more academic/structured way, or making an appointment for her with a GP, or just trying to ignore it all for now and as some of you have suggested just completely ban the topic entirely. If the latter I know it’ll reemerge at some point though and it’ll be back to 2 weeks ago. 

Edgarfrndly

Without being rude, your friendly is clearly mentally ill and needs help. This sort of paranoia and delusion isn't normal. She can be deluded, but where the line should stop is where she extends those delusions to you to the point of trying to stop you from protecting yourself with a vaccine.

There's nothing you can really do here - I would be cutting them off for my own safety.

Ash.J.Williams

https://boards.ie/discussion/comment/117623579#Comment_117623579

It’s actually a common mental issue at the minute, a friend of mine has lost the plot over it

Twofeet

TG, she's not my friend or in my 'orbit'. A "friend" is one who respects your choices even if she disagrees with them. You need to set some boundaries. Good luck

YellowLead

OP, it’s quite worrying that she doesn’t want to tell her therapist about the meltdown because its embarrassing. This signals she is not willing to accept or take ownership of her issues and therefore will continue to be a drain of a ‘friend’. I know we need to support our friends through thick and thin, but this one is willingly being obtuse.

Selenophile

Hi OP,

During this pandemic, I came to a firm conclusion, that too many people (if not all of us) can't be persuaded with rational arguments and logic - that people chose what and who they believe and accept as truth. It is a terrible conclusion for me, but it explains a lot, not only success of conspiracy theories, but so many other bad things in our history.

In this particular case, it means that you can't help your friend with any rational approach, correct information or any true evidence. And it is not related to her education either. I have a family friend, in her 60s now, a judge in my home country who is also on that covid denying side. My former manager, a guy with a University degree from one of elite institutions, now with a very successful international carrier - also follows and shares "alternative" information. Some other of my former colleagues, my wife's friend, all of them with 3rd level education - same thing.

Scientific and every other proper information about Covid 19 is already there: elaborate for scientists, simplified even for the most uneducated of us, all the policies explained, it is all there. Not you, nor your GP can give anything more. Your friend picked those others, and you can't do anything about it. With all the more contagious variants, she has a good chance to get infected. The best you can do, if you're a religious person, is to pray she doesn't suffer consequences. If she is a risk for the workplace you are responsible for, and if it is possible, I would advise to keep her working from home.

As a glimpse of hope, I know of a person that was following some of these alternative info youtube channels, but it happened that these guys started talking things that that person doesn't agree with and doesn't like to hear, so he just dropped them as easily as he picked them. May happen to your friend. :)

derb12

Thanks for reporting back OP.

It sounds like your friend is a lost cause for now. She can’t face the cognitive dissonance that would come from listening to reasoned argument from the opposing view about covid and vaccines and feels secure only in her bubble.

You cannot fix her.

It's that simple. All you can do is let her know that you are there for her when she comes back to dealing with reality and make sure she doesn’t put you or any other employees in harm’s way.

Big Bag of Chips

Whatever you do, do not under any circumstances take on the responsibility of booking her a GP visit to discuss this. Unless of course you are doing it as her employer who is assessing her fitness to work.

I honestly don't know what you can do other than ignore her. I have a friend who doesn't want the vaccine for her own personal reasons and that's fine. She has her very logical reasons for not wanting it at this stage in her life. And there's no more to discuss.

Your friend has her beliefs and nobody will ever persuade her differently.

I think the time has now come to draw boundaries in your friendship/working relationship. In work you are her employer. And in work conversations should be kept professional. Outside of work you can try to maintain a friendship if you want, but you are not her mother. You don't need to make (and pay for?) a GP appointment for her. You don't need to talk her round or try to get through to her. You just need her to be a friend and respect your position, and you respect hers. (ie, you agree to disagree and never again talk about it!)

Tork

OP, your biggest problem is that your work and personal lives are so intertwined. This is exactly why nobody should ever employ family or friends and I think you're now coming to learn that the hard way. I don't know how you'd broach the conversation but it would be better for all concerned if your friend moved on and found another job. I doubt very much that she will ever fully emerge from the conspiracy theory rabbit hole that she has burrowed herself into. Even if she gets herself out of the current predicament by catching and recovering from Covid (which could be unpleasant for her if she's asthmatic), something else is inevitably going to come along. You should assume that you're not going to be getting your old friend back.

It's possible to ignore a friend's viewpoint when we don't agree with them (I daresay we all do this) but when it impinges on your work life, it's an entirely different matter. Already you've said that it's starting to make you question her professional abilities. I can see that continuing to niggle at you. You haven't said what the size and nature of your business are (and you don't have to) but your friend could do damage to it. You could lose other good staff members or customers over this. If she deals with other colleagues or the public, they won't be happy with her refusal to wear a mask. And if she's the sort of person who is vocal about her anti-vax views and makes her thoughts known to others, they're not going to appreciate that. They mightn't say anything to you but might quietly take their business elsewhere.

https://boards.ie/discussion/comment/117617742#Comment_117617742

THIS.

Take ten steps back and put hard boundaries in place. Both at work and in the friendship. And I mean hard.

And whatever you do, keep her well away from your own GP. She won't believe them anyway, and your GP will not appreciate you referring her brand of crazy onto them to defuse.

OPJuly

OP here again, thanks again everyone for all of your input. Back with another update and to once again get all of this off my chest.

We met up yesterday to do some work together at my apartment. We chatted about what we did over the weekend and she said she didn't do much, but then later remembered that she was actually at the protests on the weekend, and met with people from a group of similarly minded people that she's in. Since she was in my apartment and because I have my next vaccine dose coming up I asked her was she hanging out with these people indoors or outdoors. She refused to answer so I told her she should leave. She got super upset and accused me of labelling her as a leper. She demanded an apology and said that if I don't apologise there would be "dire consequences".

I actually regret giving in to her on this but after she said that she met them outdoors and there was only 2 of them I apologised for how I expressed my concerns to her, in order to calm things down, which they did, but of course the old topic continued from there. The initial and civil proposal was that at some stage we should have a calm/respectful debate around a single topic where she would present me with an argument and the challenge would be on me to disprove it - she agreed that if the numbers/data were worthy, they would stand up to scrutiny.

This was to happen "at some stage", but on the day the conversation progressed such that various websites and articles were being brought up. Well, I have to say that it gave me a fairly depressing insight into all of this - I was shocked at the low standard of quality, skepticism or due diligence that she was giving towards her acceptance and endorsement of these "resources of truth". The criteria just seemed to be "I believe it because it contradicts the mainstream, and I know the mainstream is corrupt" and "I believe it because there's no commercial incentive behind presenting this information".

One resource would argue that Covid isn't a threat, while another would argue that vaccines are ineffective against the threat of Covid. So, yeah.

She would fire up a video and a quick Google would show plenty of articles debunking the claims, but her response was one of mockery that of course they're trying to cover up the truth, and of course they're going to seek to discredit anyone who disagrees with them.

Another video of a scientist predicting widespread genocide from mass vaccination, who she totally respects as a scientist - when asked why she respects him over others, she has no answer.

Throughout the day the amount of contradictions, cognitive dissonance and inability to back up any points was honestly saddening. I had assumed that after all of this time she was applying some kind of academic approach to all of this. It made me sad that this is what she had got herself caught up in over the past year and a half, and this was all she had to show for it - a contradictory hodgepodge of articles and videos with no consistency, no structure, no concrete argument.

At one point I showed her a video of news reports of India's 2nd wave (for anyone who hasn't seen it it's fairly harrowing stuff) - my hope was that it might shock her into reality by seeing the devastation the virus can cause when there are no societal protections in place that we have the privilege of. She was completely unaware of what's been going on in India, but her response was to brush it off as mainstream media, that it could all be misleading (I don't know how you can immediately dismiss makeshift mass-crematoriums in car parks as misleading, but here we are), and then brought up a video of an anti-mainstream website interviewing a guy "from the ground" who gave no compelling counter argument whatsoever, but the message being that MSM is corrupt therefore wrong, therefore exaggerating the crisis, etc etc which of course she was happy to side with.

The most frustrating thing however was when she showed me a paper published by WHO. I asked her why is she sending me this, when she had said before that WHO are corrupt and untrustworthy - and from this I learned that she actually doesn't believe in any of this science anyway, because she believes in a thing called "terrain theory" which argues that there is no such thing as a virus either way, and that even the scientists whose papers she sent me she doesn't agree with on the fundamentals. Her view was that she wanted to show me stuff that is in line with my reality, my response was simple - send me something you're willing to stand over. She couldn't. This crossed a serious line for me.

She can have whatever views she wants but the thought of her having put us both through so much grief these past months, so much conflict and stress, driven through these random articles and videos she's been sending me which she doesn't even believe in in the first place.

Later that evening I texted her to say we're never going to reach a middle ground, and to avoid any further hostility or arguments I don't wish to ever discuss it again. She agreed it was for the best, then texted me in the morning saying while she doesn't agree with me getting my 2nd dose, she respects my decision to and that she'll be there if I need her. I responded to remind her that I asked her not to discuss the topic again, that I don't want to hear about her respect, that it doesn't involve her and to please leave me alone about it.

That's it for me now. I don't know where things will go from here, but I know that she's so deep down the rabbit hole that there really doesn't seem to be any reaching her. It was an eyeopener. My view is that it's all just very sad, the work that she's been doing on all of this for months on end is sad, the grief and conflict and absolute waste of time, stress and energy is sad, the utterly pointless conflicts we've had are sad, her cutting herself away from society in pursuit of her beliefs is sad. I think she needs help, but I know she's not going to seek it.

Caranica

OP I really don't know why you insist on having her in your life. She clearly doesn't care about your safety. The delta variant is highly transmissible in crowds outdoors (research from sporting events in Australia). And yet you apologised to her? You've ignored 90% of the advice on here too.

OPJuly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117669785#Comment_117669785

She's a good friend so I do want her in my life, but this issue has had a big impact and will remain the elephant in the room. We'll see if it's doable to maintain a friendship under such circumstances. I had thought it would be worth attempting a sit down discussion of the issue. It came about in not-ideal circumstances, but it's done now and I've now drawn the line on it all. And yes, I'm still reflecting on my decision there re apologising and questioning my response. I'm probably too caught up in it all myself. I do appreciate the advice and input.

Jequ0n

Congratulations, you are enabling her so you can give up hope that this will ever change

Big Bag of Chips

You gave her far too much air time.

MissShihTzu

Time to separate work and personal life, OP. Why have you not given this woman the boot yet?

gmisk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117669785#Comment_117669785

This...exactly.

What is the point of being friends with this person? What are you getting from the relationship, it doesn't sound healthy at all, leave them to it

ThreeGreens

"She demanded an apology and said that if I don't apologise there would be "dire consequences"."

And after that threat you still consider her a friend???!??!😯

MissShihTzu

To make it easier, OP? Tell this woman she either has to get the vaccine or leave! 😈See how fast she'll behave herself then...

Big Bag of Chips

Can I ask have you other employees? Do they disrespect you in the same way this employee does, or does she get "preferential" treatment because you think she's a friend.

She has no respect for you. She's treating you like a fool and she is demanding concessions that you might not give to other employees. Why is she in your house going over work? Why does she get to tell you that she's going to work from home because you got vaccinated. She has crossed many many lines with regards friendship or as an employee. And you apologised to her! And it turns out she doesn't even believe any of what she's saying anyway.

She's treating you like a fool. And has you believing "she's a good friend".

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117670164#Comment_117670164

Have to agree with all of this. At first she lied by omission about what she got up to at the weekend, then she said, it was only two people?

She cares nothing for your safety and you should not have backed down when you asked her to leave.

This person is not your friend, she has shown that over and over, and then had the cheek to threaten you with dire consequences?

She'd have gotten my size six up her arse out the door, at that stage.

HildaOgdenx

I'm not sure really OP, (and I mean this kindly) what you want from the thread at this point. Most of us have tried to advise that this can't go on, but that's all we can do, and as always in PI, it's entirely up to you as the OP to take things on board, or not.

I'm trying to picture myself telling my employer what they should do as regards vaccination...I get that she is someone you regard as a friend but this surely shows that's not a good setup. And possibly not tenable longterm.

Also, on the one hand, she insisted on working from home, in case of 'shedding' after you received the vaccination. But she has no issue with possibly putting you at risk by her lies in relation to attending a demonstration. I think that should tell you a lot.

I believe at this stage you need to talk to someone else about this. Not with a view to dragging someone else in to it, absolutely not. But to an outside, third party who may be able to help you with strategies for dealing with her, from now on. You have to look out for your own health, both physical and mental. She is badly affecting your well being, and that is something you need to call a halt to, for your own sake.

All the best.

fun loving criminal

OP, she is not your friend when she can completely disregard your health. And why did you have her over in your apartment anyway. You knew you were waiting for your vaccine and you know her thoughts on it. It doesn't matter if she was at the protests herself, she is at risk of catching covid at the shops and can and will visit you unvaccinated. You allowed that.

Time to put distance between you two. Not just no vaccine discussion. Get rid of her and her threats to you.

KellyKelly

I am also in a Similar situation, I work in a office 5 days a week and i'm the only fully Vaxx in the office.

The other girls who are Anti-Vaxx seem very confused and scared with their Theories day in and day out.

Its frustrating listening to it , everybody has different opinions. I often try change subject and talk about something else, but I understand how hard it is.

Maybe she's suffering with Anxiety, and confusion and obviously not dealing with it in the best way.

Maybe helping her friend a new GP will be good for you both.