Electric Oven Plug or No Plug

gersjunk

Hi we just replaced our Single Oven on a 13amp plug with a new single oven Zanussi ZZB35901XA.

It does not have a flex on it.

Now the confusion is in the manual it says it needs to go through a oven control unit and installed by qualified electrician. But there is also a lot of conflicting reviews on Internet that it just connects to a 2.5mm flex with 13amp plug. Others are saying 1.5mm flex

Obviously if it needs to be installed by electrician il bite the bullet but will be annoyed, but if it just needs 1.5-2.5mm flex and a plug, I've no problem adding that.

Any thoughts, it's 2.5kw single oven.

Thanks

kirving

I'm no electrician, so the below is no gospel, just opinion.

Is the socked you currently have switched above the countertop? If so, and if the old oven wen through it, then I'd imagine it's fine. 2.5mm² cable is preferable of course for the flex, and make sure to use a heavy duty plug. I was looking at them recently and some won't even take a 2.5mm² cable.

If the socket is not switched, now is the time to bite the bullet and get it wired in via a switch so tmyou can knock off remotely. Let the electrician then make the call as to whether they put in a switched socket or wire the flex directly to the switch.

Henry...

Depends it it comes fited with a plug

If it does you to leave it on for warranty

If not you can wire it direct but follow manufacturers instructions

2011

gersjunk wrote: »

Hi we just replaced our Single Oven on a 13amp plug with a new single oven Zanussi ZZB35901XA.

It does not have a flex on it.

Now the confusion is in the manual it says it needs to go through a oven control unit and installed by qualified electrician. But there is also a lot of conflicting reviews on Internet that it just connects to a 2.5mm flex with 13amp plug. Others are saying 1.5mm flex

Obviously if it needs to be installed by electrician il bite the bullet but will be annoyed, but if it just needs 1.5-2.5mm flex and a plug, I've no problem adding that.

Any thoughts, it's 2.5kw single oven.

Thanks

The starting point here is determining the design current.
e know that the load is resistve and 2.5kW therefore the design current is 2500/230 = 10.8 amps.

A heat resistant flex that is at least 1.5 mm sq. would be ideal. Nothing wrong with a 2.5 either. As this will spend most of its time drawing less than 10 amps a 13A plugtop would work. However I would prefer a switched spur outlet.

Henry... wrote: »

Depends it it comes fited with a plug

If it does you to leave it on for warranty

Really? Do you have a link to supprt this?
I have cut off many a plug (generally a 2 pin) and never had any warrant issue.

Henry...

No

Just suppliers blurb

2011

Henry... wrote: »

No

Just suppliers blurb

I wouldn’t believe them.

gersjunk

Thanks Guys.

On closer inspection of the manual it says in Europe install 1.5mm Flex and plug and in UK install 2.5mm through Cooker control unit.

Guess its Europe so lol.

Get info Thanks.

kirving

2011 wrote: »

I wouldn’t believe them.

But it could make it more difficult to prove you didn't screw up the wiring if it won't power on first thing.

Best to at least plug it in once using the plug to ensure it's okay.

2011

kirving wrote: »

But it could make it more difficult to prove you didn't screw up the wiring if it won't power on first thing.

If true you would be able to find a link.
In Ireland we use 3 pin plugs. Are you suggesting thy the 2 pin plug found on many continental appliances should be used ?

Best to at least plug it in once using the plug to ensure it's okay.

Definitely not.

Fils

I wouldn’t go cutting moulded plugs off oven or any appliance for that matter. Wire your new oven with appropriate cable and plug it in if 13 amp or less.

crasy dash

Fils wrote: »

I wouldn’t go cutting moulded plugs off oven or any appliance for that matter. Wire your new oven with appropriate cable and plug it in if 13 amp or less.

Worked in a smallIsh company installing hundreds of white goods every month and plenty of plugs always had to be cut to be installed due to lazy kitchen fitters or silly trades people not giving two hoots.
Boss said it was no problem cutting them ,was also involved in dealing with faulty return items to suppliers and there were plenty and it was never an issue either.

Fils

Interesting to hear. We can let end user do as they feel necessary.

2011

Plug / socket arrangements are fine for portable appliances, fixed appliances are best hardwired in place via a spur outlet or suitable isolator. This applies in particular to larger loads such as hobs, ovens, tumble dryers etc.

Many appliances are provided with 2 pin plugs as they are designed for continental Europe. These are not compatible with the 3 pin socket outlets that we use in Ireland. In these cases there is no option other than to remove the 2 pin plug.

I have even replaced / removed plugs when working with manufacturers.

Any link from any manufacturer stating that this will invalidate any warranty?

Fils

I don’t have any interweb links, any links yourself from manufacturers stating to cut off plugs and no issue with warranty?

Fils

There possibly is interweb links if I have time later on go on the google.

Henry...

I don't have any links

For arguments sake they can say you were interfering
with the appliance

If the plug is cut off they may say

Wa the appliance fused at 13amp ?
.
Was it connected to a socket circuit

Was the polarity correct?

2011

Fils wrote: »

I don’t have any interweb links, any links yourself from manufacturers stating to cut off plugs and no issue with warranty?

How could a manufacturer possibly be expected to list everything that you are permitted to do?

Why would an manufacturer have an issue with a plug being removed?

I have my own experience of warranty claims none of which ever had an issue with a plug being removed.

Fils

You are looking for interweb links to state that cutting off a moulded plug invalidates warranty.
I am merely looking for interweb links stating that manufactures state such. It is evident it’s a grey area and one no two people will agree on.
As I said earlier I’ll leave it up to the individual, but I wouldn’t be condoning it.

2011

Fils wrote: »

I don’t have any interweb links, any links yourself from manufacturers stating to cut off plugs and no issue with warranty?

Yes, I do. Have a look at this example, it provides a link to the user manual. This PDF lists out exactly how the oven is to be installed. Therefore once you comply with these conditions the warrenty is valid. That is how it works in the real world.

The first condition you will see is "All electrical connections should be made by a qualified electrician."

This is becasue the manufacturer trusts that a qualified electrcian is suitably qualified to determine how the oven is best connected and what the local regualtions are.

If what you are suggesting is correct then in some inctances there would be a choice between complying with the national rules or invalidating warrenty! I very much doubt that this would be legal.

Henry...

2011 wrote: »

Yes, I do. Have a look at this example, it provides a link to the user manual. This PDF lists out exactly how the oven is to be installed. Therefore once you comply with these conditions the warrenty is valid. That is how it works in the real world.

The first condition you will see is "All electrical connections should be made by a qualified electrician."

This is becasue the manufacturer trusts that a qualified electrcian is suitably qualified to determine how the oven is best connected and what the local regualtions are.

If what you are suggesting is correct then in some inctances there would be a choice between complying with the national rules or invalidating warrenty! I very much doubt that this would be legal.

Had a quick glance at that user manual

It contradicts your assertions in about 3 different places and that's at a quick glance

Henry...

"Make sure not to cause damage to the mains plug and to the mains cable"

2011

Henry... wrote: »

Had a quick glance at that user manual

It contradicts your assertions in about 3 different places and that's at a quick glance

Where?

I see thy you have not commented on this “ If what you are suggesting is correct then in some inctances there would be a choice between complying with the national rules or invalidating warrenty! I very much doubt that this would be legal.”

Fils

2011 wrote: »

Yes, I do. Have a look at this example, it provides a link to the user manual. This PDF lists out exactly how the oven is to be installed. Therefore once you comply with these conditions the warrenty is valid. That is how it works in the real world.

The first condition you will see is "All electrical connections should be made by a qualified electrician."

This is becasue the manufacturer trusts that a qualified electrcian is suitably qualified to determine how the oven is best connected and what the local regualtions are.

If what you are suggesting is correct then in some inctances there would be a choice between complying with the national rules or invalidating warrenty! I very much doubt that this would be legal.

I live in the real world please don’t patronise me like that. I’m not suggesting to not comply with regulations at all. Your words not mine.

Henry...

2011 wrote: »

Where?

I see thy you have not commented on this “ If what you are suggesting is correct then in some inctances there would be a choice between complying with the national rules or invalidating warrenty! I very much doubt that this would be legal.”

Agree about the legal side of it , it will probably end up in a dispute

The basic premise is that you are interfering with the appliance by removing the plug

As above, user manual says not to cause damege to plug and cable

kirving

2011 wrote: »

If true you would be able to find a link.

We both know well that no manufacturer could possibly list each and every use condition which will or won't invalidate the warranty. So you know that asking for a link is a fools errand.

You've said it yourself later on, albeit in the inverse tense.

2011 wrote: »

How could a manufacturer possibly be expected to list everything that you are permitted to do?

2011 wrote: »

In Ireland we use 3 pin plugs. Are you suggesting thy the 2 pin plug found on many continental appliances should be used ?

You're intentionally misrepresenting my point, I didn't say anything close to that.

Obviously not, by the way.

2011 wrote: »

Definitely not.

So if I buy an oven with a 3 pin UK plug, but I know that the ideal thing to do is to permanently wire it in, it's a bad idea to plug it in once using the moulded plug just to check all is OK? I'd like to understand why, particularly if it's a safety issue.

I did say "could" make it more difficult, not that it would. Maybe the manufacturer wouldn't care, but I'd much rather be returning to the manufacturer with a moulded plug still intact if the appliance was dead on arrival. Just one less thing to argue about is all.

Henry...

I think it's mostly horseshlt

I'd be more wary now though and reluctant to cut them off

Some of these service engineers are quick to find an excuse to invalidate a warranty

2011

When I said "In Ireland we use 3 pin plugs. Are you suggesting thy the 2 pin plug found on many continental appliances should be used ?" your response was (bold added my me):

kirving wrote: »

You're intentionally misrepresenting my point, I didn't say anything close to that.

Obviously not, by the way.

So what is the alternative?

So if I buy an oven with a 3 pin UK plug, but I know that the ideal thing to do is to permanently wire it in, it's a bad i adea to plug it in once using the moulded plug just to check all is OK? I'd like to understand why, particularly if it's a safety issue.

There are a number of reasons why a hardwire solution is preferable:

1) Often existing oven or cooker supply cables are not protected by an RCD. Therefore it is not permitted to connect a socket to it.
2) Plugging into a local socket circuit particularly in a kitchen where there tends to be multiple relatively load appliances can overload the circuit. A kettle for example is 3kW alone.
3) Plugs for higher load items such as tumble dryers, washing machines and ovens have been known to go on fire!

Therefore, as a general rule it is better (where possible) to hardwire non-portable appliances if practical. This is one reason why for example storage heaters and wall mounted panel heaters (of similar rating) are hardwired.

The image below shows what I and many other electricians have seen occur over the years. Often this is due to a worn socket outlet which can mean a higher resistance connection. As heat generated = the current squared x the resistance, what you see below can be the end result. Does this happen all the time? No, but it happens more than you may think. I have seen this quite a few times.

I hope this answers your question.

Henry...

Isolator above the worktop and a socket below for the appliance was the way i did them

I still prefer the plug socket arrangement for ease of use , maintenance, replacement etc.

Isn't there a rule that says sockets not accessible for general use don't require an RCD, that would cover the oven scenario

2011

Henry... wrote: »

Isn't there a rule that says sockets not accessible for general use don't require an RCD, that would cover the oven scenario

This is permitted for "non standard" socket outlets. They are designed not to work with a standard 3 pin plug.

I still prefer the plug socket arrangement for ease of use , maintenance, replacement etc.

How often to you maintain your oven? Why not use the isolator, that is what it is there for?

Henry...

2011 wrote: »

This is permitted for "non standard" socket outlets. They are designed not to work with a standard 3 pin plug.

Yes I know that one

Is there not another rule

2011

Henry... wrote: »

Yes I know that one

Is there not another rule

I think there is an allowance for IT equipment in limited circumstances, I don't believe there is anything to cover off the situation you are describing.

Lenar3556

I think there is potential to invite hassle when making a warranty claim if you have cut off a moulded plug. Particularly if the issue is intermittent or disputed in any way.

I would agree that taking such action in itself shouldn’t have any bearing on a consumers statutory rights. But it may be questioned by an awkward supplier and you may need to invest considerably more effort than you would otherwise to get the thing resolved.

On balance, personally I think I would favour spur feeding trailing socket - is that still permitted? (Particularly in the case of washing machines / tumble driers.)

Would you still see applicances sold in Ireland with a two pin plug?

Henry...

Lenar3556 wrote: »

I think there is potential to invite hassle when making a warranty claim if you have cut off a moulded plug. Particularly if the issue is intermittent or disputed in any way.

I would agree that taking such action in itself shouldn’t have any bearing on a consumers statutory rights. But it may be questioned by an awkward supplier and you may need to invest considerably more effort than you would otherwise to get the thing resolved.

On balance, personally I think I would favour spur feeding trailing socket - is that still permitted? (Particularly in the case of washing machines / tumble driers.)

Would you still see applicances sold in Ireland with a two pin plug?

Would be mostly 20amp radials so no fused spur there ,just an isolator and socket

Lenar3556

Henry... wrote: »

Would be mostly 20amp radials so no fused spur there ,just an isolator and socket

And trailing rather than a fixed socket would be ok?

Henry...

Lenar3556 wrote: »

And trailing rather than a fixed socket would be ok?

Never tried that one , would be more DIY option imo

Henry...

Try to mount the socket and plug to one side so it's accessible is they way I did them

Lenar3556

Henry... wrote: »

Never tried that one , would be more DIY option imo

I used to see a single trailing socket wired from the isolator and allowed rest under the kick board - it provided good flexibility and length when fitting and removing applicances.

Henry...

2011 wrote: »

I think there is an allowance for IT equipment in limited circumstances, I don't believe there is anything to cover off the situation you are describing.

There's a couple of rules in et101 anyway

IT equipment obviously preferable not to have Rcd in a lot of cases, may require non standard sockets if accessible and a warning notice

The other 1 is isolation of fixed equipment but they reference motors and fluorescents so I don't think it's intended for large appliances

You might be able to quote that in the context of an inaccessible oven socket, doubt it's applicable though

Henry...

They're coming in for the whole domestic board so wont make much difference long term anyway

2011

Henry... wrote: »

There's a couple of rules in et101 anyway

As I am sure you know ET101 no longer applies.

Henry...

2011 wrote: »

As I am sure you know ET101 no longer applies.

Hardly be much change though there

They're standard sort of rules for when you don't need an rcd

wex96

back to your original post..
if there is a plug on it or manual states 13a fuse you nees an FCU(fused connection unit) also known as a fused spur and a back box. most single oven 2.99kw and under require a fuse.

fyi
I used to be an installer for currys

Henry...

wex96 wrote: »

back to your original post..
if there is a plug on it or manual states 13a fuse you nees an FCU(fused connection unit) also known as a fused spur and a back box. most single oven 2.99kw and under require a fuse.

fyi
I used to be an installer for currys

If there is no plug on it and manual states 13amp fuse you need the fcu

Do they go as high as 3kw ovens on a 13anp fuse, though it was more like 2.5

Could be out there

2011

Henry... wrote: »

Hardly be much change though there

They're standard sort of rules for when you don't need an rcd

I wouldn’t be so sure.
There are significant changes between ET101 and IS10101.
I will take a look when I get a chance.

wex96

Henry... wrote: »

If there is no plug on it and manual states 13amp fuse you need the fcu

Do they go as high as 3kw ovens on a 13anp fuse, though it was more like 2.5

Could be out there

Mostly 2.99kw or less, have seen Hisense above 3kw needing fcu

Lenar3556

It’s getting more common to see them above 3KW with rapid heating and high temperature cleaning cycles.

I wouldn’t use an appliance like that with a Irish 13amp fused plug. It should be hardwired to an isolator.

There are significant differences between CEE 7/X (Schuko) continental plugs and Irish / British ones (BS1363)

1. They are 16 amp rather than 13 amp
2. They have a recessed design (socket face is stepped back into the faceplate) This prevents finger contact as you’re inserting the plug, and that allows for unsheathed pins and much bigger contact surface areas. In contrast, Irish / U.K. plugs only make contact at the pin tips as there’s a risk to fingers otherwise.
3. The fuse carrier assembly in Irish / British plugs is often just a bent spring. If the plug isn’t assembled very accurately when wired, the fuse can make poor contact and get hot. Schuko is simpler, and has no fuse.

Thats why you can safely use a Schuko (or French) plug & socket with heavier appliances much more reliably. They’re genuinely much more robust as a connector.

Risteard81

If it was suitable for use with a plug top it would be supplied with a moulded plug fitted as this is a legal requirement for the UK market which it would also be aimed at.

Also a plug top should not be fitted with 2.5mm^2 flex - the maximum permitted by standards is 1.5mm^2 - anything larger is beyond the design parameters.