Audi: in 4 years time only fully electric vehicles

unkel

Announced today. Great news. They have a decent line up and the VAG group has the leading role now in mass manufacturing of full EVs

Linky


I really hope nobody is foolish enough to buy brand new executive price level internal combustion engined cars this year. They will suffer massive depreciation as no one will want them anymore in a few years time.

unkel

unkel wrote: »

I really hope nobody is foolish enough to buy brand new internal combustion engined cars this year. They will suffer massive depreciation as no one will want them anymore in a few years time.

You say that but your posts very much give the opposite impression.

The era of mass personal transportation is coming to a close if the only option is going to be massively overpriced EVs in a couple of years.

unkel

Deleted User wrote: »

You say that but your posts very much give the opposite impression.

Eh?

Deleted User wrote: »

the only option is going to be massively overpriced EVs in a couple of years.

What? The total cost of ownership of many new EVs is far lower than that of a comparable petrol / diesel car. And that is not taking into account the environmental costs of the ICE cars.

elperello

On the other hand a well minded example of the last of the ICE might be a good investment.

A bit like a painting after the artist has passed on.

circadian

elperello wrote: »

On the other hand a well minded example of the last of the ICE might be a good investment.

A bit like a painting after the artist has passed on.

It'd have to be something with character, a V6 or a nice rumbling boxer.

Great news to hear VAG are pushing ahead with this, means the industry is catching up with Tesla in battery tech.

unkel

elperello wrote: »

On the other hand a well minded example of the last of the ICE might be a good investment.

There will always be classic cars.

circadian wrote: »

It'd have to be something with character, a V6 or a nice rumbling boxer.

I've a beautiful sports car for sale with a nice rumbling boxer 6 cylinder. See my sig. Buy it before it will explode in value. Great investment

ted1

[Deleted User] wrote: »

The era of mass personal transportation is coming to a close if the only option is going to be massively overpriced EVs in a couple of years.

Penny wise, pound foolish.

Petrol is close to 1.50 at the pumps.
Add in brake pads, clutches , DMF, exhausts , timing belts etc snd your massively overpriced EV isn’t that dear.

What? The total cost of ownership of many new EVs is far lower than that of a comparable petrol / diesel car. And that is not taking into account the environmental costs of the ICE cars.

The trouble is there's barely any low-end vehicles and the manufacturers seem to be taking pretty big margins right now. In the last few years we've seen 2nd hand car prices start increasing and if the expectations of EVs to last longer mechanically (which I do expect) bear out then surely 2nd hand prices will have a higher floor again?

With how much battery prices have collapsed in the last few years it's very disappointing to see the premium still being charged for EVs.

pale rider

ted1 wrote: »

Penny wise, pound foolish.

Petrol is close to 1.50 at the pumps.
Add in brake pads, clutches , DMF, exhausts , timing belts etc snd your massively overpriced EV isn’t that dear.

I have a low mileage e220 amg, I fully expect this to be my last diesel and intend keeping it until fully electric cars are more reasonably priced and I can tramp cross country and back with no range anxiety, my a/c and lights , wipers etc operating as I may require, the speed I wish to travel at etc, for me the future is hydrogen not battery tech.

unkel

Deleted User wrote: »

The trouble is there's barely any low-end vehicles

Agreed. That's why I specifically mention executive price level cars in my OP.

You can't buy a cheap low-end EV yet. Not new anyway, but you can buy second hand. I picked up a near mint Renault Fluence Z.E. two days ago, taxed and long NCT for a bit over €2k

Lantus

unkel wrote: »

Eh?



What? The total cost of ownership of many new EVs is far lower than that of a comparable petrol / diesel car. And that is not taking into account the environmental costs of the ICE cars.

Yes. If the normal car spend is 40k then savings will be made. For the average Joe with a big family and an average spend of 15k on a car every 3 to 5 years the total cost of ownership speile is hollow. Today's evs are the preserve of wealthy middle classes.

ted1

ted1 wrote: »

Penny wise, pound foolish.

Petrol is close to 1.50 at the pumps.
Add in brake pads, clutches , DMF, exhausts , timing belts etc snd your massively overpriced EV isn’t that dear.

It's over €1.50 a litre where I am. But I'm paying €200 a month for a brand new Sandero and under €1 a litre for LPG.
I should probably go get an e-NIRO for €600-odd a month though, someone on the internet said I'd save money.

unkel

Lantus wrote: »

Yes. If the normal car spend is 40k then savings will be made. For the average Joe with a big family and an average spend of 15k on a car every 3 to 5 years the total cost of ownership speile is hollow. Today's evs are the preserve of wealthy middle classes.

Nonsense. You can buy an excellent Hyundai Ioniq EV 4 years old for that €15k

That car was my ONLY family car for 3 years (family of 5 with 3 teenagers and a large dog)

If your budget doesn't stretch that far, you can buy a Nissan Leaf from about €3k (low range) or a slightly newer one with more range from about €7k

ted1

pale rider wrote: »

I have a low mileage e220 amg, I fully expect this to be my last diesel and intend keeping it until fully electric cars are more reasonably priced and I can tramp cross country and back with no range anxiety, my a/c and lights , wipers etc operating as I may require, the speed I wish to travel at etc, for me the future is hydrogen not battery tech.

Unless you plan to drive a truck then forget about your hydrogen pipe dream.
Also with newer cars range anxiety isn’t really a thing nowadays, especially in three years.

You are right to keep it and not get another ICE.

circadian

unkel wrote: »

There will always be classic cars.



I've a beautiful sports car for sale with a nice rumbling boxer 6 cylinder. See my sig. Buy it before it will explode in value. Great investment

My account manager (the missus) would disagree.

pale rider

pale rider wrote: »

I have a low mileage e220 amg, I fully expect this to be my last diesel and intend keeping it until fully electric cars are more reasonably priced and I can tramp cross country and back with no range anxiety, my a/c and lights , wipers etc operating as I may require, the speed I wish to travel at etc, for me the future is hydrogen not battery tech.

Hydrogen is already dead.

unkel wrote: »

Agreed. That's why I specifically mention executive price level cars in my OP.

Fair enough.
Partly my worry though is that we're going to end up that entry-level ends up being more expensive than current EVs, they hold a lot of value and that "entry-level" ends up meaning "short range".

You can't buy a cheap low-end EV yet. Not new anyway, but you can buy second hand. I picked up a near mint Renault Fluence Z.E. two days ago, taxed and long NCT for a bit over €2k

Reminds me of when I bought an old games console on eBay for about 50 quid when it should've been over 300. It's not exactly representative of the market. :pac:

ted1

[Deleted User] wrote: »

It's over €1.50 a litre where I am. But I'm paying €200 a month for a brand new Sandero and under €1 a litre for LPG.
I should probably go get an e-NIRO for €600-odd a month though, someone on the internet said I'd save money.

If you are driving an lpg, you are the exemption to the rule.
I imagine range anxiety with a lpg is far worse than a EV. Not to many places stocking it.

Is a Sandero comparable to a new EV?
Is that not like comparing a your Sandero to the other posters AMG?

MightyMunster

Lantus wrote: »

Yes. If the normal car spend is 40k then savings will be made. For the average Joe with a big family and an average spend of 15k on a car every 3 to 5 years the total cost of ownership speile is hollow. Today's evs are the preserve of wealthy middle classes.

The title is about Audis. Not many of them for 15k new! For example a Tesla Model 3 is cheaper to buy and a fraction of the running cost of an equivalent spec A4, 5 or 6. Not to mention faster, cleaner air, quieter etc...

unkel

Deleted User wrote: »

Reminds me of when I bought an old games console on eBay for about 50 quid when it should've been over 300. It's not exactly representative of the market. :pac:

I did well but have a look at DoneDeal yourself, there's usually a selection of 2011 / 2012 Nissan Leafs from about €3500

These cars are utterly reliable, have near zero maintenance costs, near zero fuel costs and can quite easily have a lower total cost of ownership than a banger than someone gives you for free.

frozenfrozen

They aren't for everyone

AMKC

unkel wrote: »

Announced today. Great news. They have a decent line up and the VAG group has the leading role now in mass manufacturing of full EVs

Linky


I really hope nobody is foolish enough to buy brand new executive price level internal combustion engined cars this year. They will suffer massive depreciation as no one will want them anymore in a few years time.

Delighted. The sooner all manufactures go electric and the sooner all ice cars are of the roads the better. I would like to see what the stinky boy or girl racer will do then. Properly get Van's lol. The electric Audis actually look nice. No big ugly grill on them.

ted1

ted1 wrote: »

If you are driving an lpg, you are the exemption to the rule.
I imagine range anxiety with a lpg is far worse than a EV. Not to many places stocking it.

Nah it switches seamlessly to petrol if needed and there's an LPG station across from local gym/pool. As far as I can tell I think it may actually have the longest range of any new car currently on sale while also being stupidly cheap.
And looking at Ionity charges with my fuel economy it's comparable if not cheaper for me to throw some petrol in if needed, cheaper with LPG.

Is a Sandero comparable to a new EV?
Is that not like comparing a your Sandero to the other posters AMG?

Nah but just making the point that buying new there are entry-level ICE cars that can be had super cheap and running costs for the first few years will be 100 for servicing and fuel and that's about it.

SCOOP 64

ill think ill stick with my petrol 98 Astra, 23 years old, 230000miles and still going strong.

Gumbo

SCOOP 64 wrote: »

ill think ill stick with my petrol 98 Astra, 23 years old, 230000miles and still going strong.

No reason to change until you have to. And no EV driver will say otherwise. Nobody is forcing anyone into any specific fuel type.

listermint

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Nah it switches seamlessly to petrol if needed and there's an LPG station across from local gym/pool. As far as I can tell I think it may actually have the longest range of any new car currently on sale while also being stupidly cheap.
And looking at Ionity charges with my fuel economy it's comparable if not cheaper for me to throw some petrol in if needed, cheaper with LPG.


Nah but just making the point that buying new there are entry-level ICE cars that can be had super cheap and running costs for the first few years will be 100 for servicing and fuel and that's about it.

LPG is a load of my bollix. We had one in the family. 2 filling stations within 15km and one of them was never open the other only Mon to Friday.

Ask my hole LPG. And this was dublin.

ted1

ted1 wrote: »

Penny wise, pound foolish.

Petrol is close to 1.50 at the pumps.
Add in brake pads, clutches , DMF, exhausts , timing belts etc snd your massively overpriced EV isn’t that dear.

It is when you’ve to pay it all out at the start.

JohnC.

Genuinely didn’t know LPG was still a thing in cars.

listermint

JohnC. wrote: »

Genuinely didn’t know LPG was still a thing in cars.

It is, for contrary people hoping the LPG place doesnt just decide one day to close up shop.

listermint

listermint wrote: »

LPG is a load of my bollix. We had one in the family. 2 filling stations within 15km and one of them was never open the other only Mon to Friday.

Ask my hole LPG. And this was dublin.

Fair enough, for me there's one I'd pass fairly regularly anyway and about 2km away so it worked out nicely for me. Living where I do I also wouldn't be able to put in a home charger either as it happens. :pac:

JohnC.

JohnC. wrote: »

Genuinely didn’t know LPG was still a thing in cars.

Still popular in parts of Europe. Would've been a much better push than diesel 20-odd years ago but the time has passed for the mass market. And for some reason 13 years later diesel is still being pushed over petrol when it should already be gone.

ted1

ReginaldSmythV wrote: »

It is when you’ve to pay it all out at the start.

Credit union loan or similar ?

ted1

ted1 wrote: »

Credit union loan or similar ?

No. Diesel and no loan.

ted1

ReginaldSmythV wrote: »

No. Diesel and no loan.

Lifetime cost of ownership is what you need to look at

unkel

ted1 wrote: »

Lifetime cost of ownership is what you need to look at

Exactly. I'm no fan of financing a car but if it means lower total cost of ownership, I would consider it.

dickdasr1234

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Still popular in parts of Europe. Would've been a much better push than diesel 20-odd years ago but the time has passed for the mass market. And for some reason 13 years later diesel is still being pushed over petrol when it should already be gone.

I chose a 118d over a Mini Cooper 1.5 petrol because it does 60+mpg at motorway speeds and has a lower Nox output. What, exactly, is your beef with diesels?

JohnC.

It's amazing that's a question that can still be asked with a straight face.

biko

unkel wrote: »

They will suffer massive depreciation as no one will want them anymore in a few years time.

People will still want them but taxes and other disincentives will push people in the direction the government want them to go, just like with diesels.

ted1

dickdasr1234 wrote: »

I chose a 118d over a Mini Cooper 1.5 petrol because it does 60+mpg at motorway speeds and has a lower Nox output. What, exactly, is your beef with diesels?

What % if your driving is at motorway speeds ?

ted1

ted1 wrote: »

What % if your driving is at motorway speeds ?

I don’t have a Mini Cooper but easily 80% of mine is. Probably higher.

unkel

biko wrote: »

People will still want them but taxes and other disincentives will push people in the direction the government want them to go, just like with diesels.

Yes, that's what I'm saying. No one will want them

elperello

unkel wrote: »

Yes, that's what I'm saying. No one will want them

Predicting the future can be fun but it's an uncertain past time.

As I said earlier in the thread I reckon the higher end petrol models will continue to be wanted as they become prized for rarity.

In the medium term I think A4 and A6 diesels will find a market outside of urban areas but long term if EVs get better they will be hard to sell.

The smaller petrols and diesels will probably be bought by younger drivers starting off and filter out of the market by natural attrition.

No matter how it goes with less than 4% of the Irish market it's hard to see Audi upsetting things too much.

unkel

elperello wrote: »

No matter how it goes with less than 4% of the Irish market it's hard to see Audi upsetting things too much.

It's not just Audi though. VAG are selling 100% electric cars by the shedloads. ID.3, ID.4 and Skoda Enyaq are a winning formula. About the same price as a decent specced ICE car, but the savings in total cost of ownership are astounding. Once the majority of people start to realise this, no one will want to buy an ICE car anymore if there is a decent alternative in an EV. This is happening this year, in 2021.

LillySV

elperello wrote: »

On the other hand a well minded example of the last of the ICE might be a good investment.

A bit like a painting after the artist has passed on.

Exactly this … all the higher powered premium make ice cars values have increased in last few year… lads want to enjoy and experience the fun, power noise and character of a proper ice motor before they are forced into having no option other than boring electric everything assisted traction control ****e that’s coming

elperello

unkel wrote: »

It's not just Audi though. VAG are selling 100% electric cars by the shedloads. ID.3, ID.4 and Skoda Enyaq are a winning formula. About the same price as a decent specced ICE car, but the savings in total cost of ownership are astounding. Once the majority of people start to realise this, no one will want to buy an ICE car anymore if there is a decent alternative in an EV. This is happening this year, in 2021.

I take your point but this thread is about Audi.

While ID3 and 4 sales are impressive from a standing start what is really selling in "shedloads" is Toyotas and Hyundais.

If people stop buying new ICE then obviously they won't be there on the second hand market.

I doubt there will be a sudden drop in value for second hand ICE rather a gradual working through of the national fleet.

unkel

elperello wrote: »

I doubt there will be a sudden drop in value for second hand ICE rather a gradual working through of the national fleet.

I agree mostly. But if you buy a brand new ICE now (for which there already is an EV alternative at around the same money) then I would say the second hand value of the ICE will drop sharply in the next few years. Say a Ford Kuga diesel vs a VW ID.4

The UK transport secretary Chris Grayling said way back in 2017 that everyone planning to buy a new diesel car should have a long hard think about it. He was a bit ahead of the times, but he wasn't wrong.

Redrum123

I find this forum hilarious. VW are now the green heroes of clean motoring according to many posters here. The company that literally was caught fudging emissions tests, going even as far as testing tail pipe emissions effects on chimpanzees.

But Toyota are somehow the bad guys because they call their cars "self charging" which...they actually are. I don't see how else the battery is charged considering they don't plug in.

It's funny, I somehow think that I trust the strategy of company that has been thinking about the future of environmentally friendly cleaner motoring for 25 years more than the company who created the dieselgate scandal.

BEVs as they are currently designed are not a sustainable way of providing mass transportation as the infrastructure is not there and cannot be implemented within any short time frame. The only reason companies are going down this route is because of idiotic short sighted government's forcing it through. VW had no choice after the farce they created for themselves. Its amazing how people are falling for this nonsense. Wide spread adoption of BEVs are totally unrealistic in this country considering we are already on the verge of rolling black outs on our grid and there is still no plan for dealing with this not to mention the load of data centres and a full fleet of BEVs.

MightyMunster

Redrum123 wrote: »

I find this forum hilarious. VW are now the green heroes of clean motoring according to many posters here. The company that literally was caught fudging emissions tests, going even as far as testing tail pipe emissions effects on chimpanzees.

But Toyota are somehow the bad guys because they call their cars "self charging" which...they actually are. I don't see how else the battery is charged considering they don't plug in.

It's funny, I somehow think that I trust the strategy of company that has been thinking about the future of environmentally friendly cleaner motoring for 25 years more than the company who created the dieselgate scandal.

BEVs as they are currently designed are not a sustainable way of providing mass transportation as the infrastructure is not there and cannot be implemented within any short time frame. The only reason companies are going down this route is because of idiotic short sighted government's forcing it through. VW had no choice after the farce they created for themselves. Its amazing how people are falling for this nonsense. Wide spread adoption of BEVs are totally unrealistic in this country considering we are already on the verge of rolling black outs on our grid and there is still no plan for dealing with this not to mention the load of data centres and a full fleet of BEVs.

Nonsense, plenty of electrical capacity at night to recharge BEVs. Average mileage per day is <50km/day which is only ~8kwh per car per day.

2.13 million cars on the road, if all electric you would need 17.4MW hours of power. This is equal to 4 hours of wind energy at current capacity and there'll be a lot more installed by the time we have that many BEVs on the road.

As for self charging, it's charged the same way every other ICE car battery is, by burning oil.

dickdasr1234

JohnC. wrote: »

It's amazing that's a question that can still be asked with a straight face.

Then I'll ask it again in the hope of enlightenment.

dickdasr1234

ted1 wrote: »

What % if your driving is at motorway speeds ?

Well the car averages 50.3mpg so I'll leave the rest to you!

FileNotFound

Anyone reach the point there battery needed a change? What's the lifespans and cost?

Also talking second hand, I assume the battery life is a major concern and are any of the reasonably priced second hand EV's ones with half decent range?

MightyMunster

dickdasr1234 wrote: »

Then I'll ask it again in the hope of enlightenment.

Could have been referring to the 790000 premature deaths per year in the EU caused by air pollution?