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Why do renters equate the ability to pay rent to mortgage eligibility?

  • 10-06-2021 8:09pm
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 212 ✭✭ JizzBeans


    A common argument renters make, is that because they can afford to pay their rent regularly , they would be able to service a mortgage as it would be a similar amount. The inference being that they should somehow be eligible for a mortgage.



    Another argument that renters/prospective buyers make is that "they done everything right" by going to college, getting the masters and attempting to land a higher paying job etc, etc.



    Are they valid points? Its a little more complicated that points suggest I would have thought.


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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 1,882 ✭✭✭ Smee_Again


    Desperation.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,423 ✭✭✭ Berties_Horse


    Are these "arguments" ones you conjured up on the spot? Either you're hopelessly naive or out for a spot of fishing.


  • Registered Users Posts: 244 ✭✭ Oymyakon


    Most working people can pay for a mortgage, the issue is that if everyone was offered mortgages, house prices would go up even more due to increased competition.


  • Registered Users Posts: 212 ✭✭ JizzBeans


    Are these "arguments" ones you conjured up on the spot? Either you're hopelessly naive or out for a spot of fishing.


    Not my arguments, guests or callers on the radio, Newstalk etc. Why would I be hopelessly naive?


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,295 ✭✭✭ Shebean


    It use to be the case that you could aspire to home ownership without being laughed at. The way it's working out now is that if you work hard you can aspire to paying rent to a vulture fund.
    People feel lied to maybe. Certainly left behind.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,242 ✭✭✭ Piriz


    JizzBeans wrote: »
    A common argument renters make, is that because they can afford to pay their rent regularly , they would be able to service a mortgage as it would be a similar amount. The inference being that they should somehow be eligible for a mortgage.



    Another argument that renters/prospective buyers make is that "they done everything right" by going to college, getting the masters and attempting to land a higher paying job etc, etc.



    Are they valid points? Its a little more complicated that points suggest I would have thought.

    I would say they are valid points to an extent, the property market has gotten away from a lot of people who's expectations for themselves they are discovering are unattainable.. yeah people made the right moves and still its unattainable.. people might not have ever been in a position to apply for a mortgage so will be naive to the criteria laid out by the banks..

    historically they might have been eligible for a mortgage but in this globalised and wealth divided world they are not.. I'm not optimistic it will improve unfortunately


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,214 ✭✭✭ djan


    I think the issue is when someone has been paying 1300 eur rent per month for close to 10 years being told that they cannot afford a mortgage of 700. This being due to the often ridiculous estimated spending of having a child (over 1k in some cases).

    That understandably does not sit well with those effected.


  • Registered Users Posts: 212 ✭✭ JizzBeans


    djan wrote: »
    I think the issue is when someone has been paying 1300 eur rent per month for close to 10 years being told that they cannot afford a mortgage of 700. This being due to the often ridiculous estimated spending of having a child (over 1k in some cases).

    That understandably does not sit well with those effected.


    700 euro, wow.


    In any case a mortgage isn't just about monthly repayments. There's also the deposit, stamp duty, solicitors fees and all sorts of costs.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,239 ✭✭✭ Bigmac1euro


    JizzBeans wrote: »
    700 euro, wow.


    In any case a mortgage isn't just about monthly repayments. There's also the deposit, stamp duty, solicitors fees and all sorts of costs.

    Yes but I think the point is that even when they have all that it’s a struggle I purchased last year it was a nightmare in fact it was the most stressful situation of my life they left no stone unturned which is fair enough. People are going to moan and I certainly did you can’t stop it, this thread is going nowhere goodluck.


  • Registered Users Posts: 310 ✭✭ FromADistance


    JizzBeans wrote: »
    A common argument renters make, is that because they can afford to pay their rent regularly , they would be able to service a mortgage as it would be a similar amount. The inference being that they should somehow be eligible for a mortgage.



    Another argument that renters/prospective buyers make is that "they done everything right" by going to college, getting the masters and attempting to land a higher paying job etc, etc.



    Are they valid points? Its a little more complicated that points suggest I would have thought.

    It's would be a fair point if taken in isolation however what it obviously fails to acknowledge is people's specific circumstances & take into account that one can move to cheaper accommodation / seek HAP if one becomes unemployed. Obviously that's difficult with a mortgage & there's no help available if you become unemployed (bar whatever the mortgage company offers such as interest only).

    Anyhow let's be honest, property affordability is the real issue at the moment and the lack of new & affordable property for first time buyers to get on the ladder.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 15,161 ✭✭✭✭ KKV


    The problem with forever renting, is that it's not being geared up as a thing you can realistically expect to do.

    If a mortgage on a house is 1k a month, for argument sake, then renting should come in at, or below, that cost. If people knew they had a monthly outgoing that was the same or less than a mortgage on an equivalent property, and knew they had some level of security, it'd make sense to rent forever.

    These funds coming in and buying up everything, aren't really a bad thing as such. In a functioning property market, where I could opt to rent a house for the same price as a mortgage, but not have any concerns or worries about things like boiler maintenance, property taxes, changing the electric shower, etc. then that'd be appealing.

    The issue with renting in it's current form, is that people who are renting the properties are trying to recoup back the entire cost of the property, including it's ongoing maintenance fees, as quickly as they can, and thus, you end up with rents that are more expensive than a mortgage, and they keep getting revised upwards at every opportunity.

    Don't get me wrong, I can fully understand why they do that, but it makes renting a very unappealing situation to be in.


  • Registered Users Posts: 583 ✭✭✭ crooked cockney villain


    JizzBeans wrote: »
    A

    Another argument that renters/prospective buyers make is that "they done everything right" by going to college, getting the masters and attempting to land a higher paying job etc, etc.

    .

    What a lot of these people are saying, in dog whistle form, is this.

    "I went to school with a lad who never did a tap of work, dropped out with barely a junior cert, while he moved from warehouse to cash in hand to warehouse I and my now missus were doing four years of business studies, a year of travel, an unpaid internship and now we both have been 5 years in Irish Life/ AIB/ Allianz Insurance/ insert "good job" name company here.

    Your man from school did a bricklaying apprenticeship at some point and he and his hairdresser missus have two kids and bought a house three years ago."

    Quite a lot of people were sold a lie in school. The dosser, the lad who showed up half the time, might not have even done a JC, often due to various current economics was on a much better path than the lad who was told to go to college.

    The primary problem in this instance is that the corporate world has minimal union coverage and, to my knowledge, SEO minimum rates don't exist in the majority of it.

    Many graduates, after 4 years, are offere an unpaid internship, or a salary that the blurb describes as competitive.

    25K is not competitive. And a raise of 3 or 5% a year is not competitive either.

    It's bull****, and Deco your man who dropped out would laugh at anybody who tried offering him that to sweep floors on a building site, never mind do a trade.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,441 ✭✭✭ Tork


    So tell me, when did you buy your house OP? What is your job?


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,296 ✭✭✭✭ Hello 2D Person Below


    Tork wrote: »
    So tell me, when did you buy your house OP? What is your job?

    "I'm a renter myself and am happy to play my part in keeping petrol in the landlord's second Audi" - OP.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,299 ✭✭✭ Snotty


    KKV wrote: »

    If a mortgage on a house is 1k a month, for argument sake, then renting should come in at, or below, that cost.

    Traditionally this is not how rent/mortgages rates differed, rent would have been higher as renting has benefits over a mortgage that make it more attractive for certain people or more likely certain age groups and demographics.
    Renting doesn't tie people to a specific area, they can move for work and better opportunities, renting also doesn't incur any capital outlays, like if the roof is going to fall in, you can just phone the landlord and not worry about what it will cost.
    This footloose value to renting is definitely of most benefit to those early in their career and there comes a time when those benefits of renting are out weight by the need to provide a stable home for yourself and loved ones.


  • Registered Users Posts: 651 ✭✭✭ Nika Bolokov


    What a lot of these people are saying, in dog whistle form, is this.

    "I went to school with a lad who never did a tap of work, dropped out with barely a junior cert, while he moved from warehouse to cash in hand to warehouse I and my now missus were doing four years of business studies, a year of travel, an unpaid internship and now we both have been 5 years in Irish Life/ AIB/ Allianz Insurance/ insert "good job" name company here.

    Your man from school did a bricklaying apprenticeship at some point and he and his hairdresser missus have two kids and bought a house three years ago."

    Quite a lot of people were sold a lie in school. The dosser, the lad who showed up half the time, might not have even done a JC, often due to various current economics was on a much better path than the lad who was told to go to college.

    The primary problem in this instance is that the corporate world has minimal union coverage and, to my knowledge, SEO minimum rates don't exist in the majority of it.

    Many graduates, after 4 years, are offere an unpaid internship, or a salary that the blurb describes as competitive.

    25K is not competitive. And a raise of 3 or 5% a year is not competitive either.

    It's bull****, and Deco your man who dropped out would laugh at anybody who tried offering him that to sweep floors on a building site, never mind do a trade.

    Your spot on.

    Deco if he qualified as en electrician at say 21 or 22 would be on about 55k these days in no time working for someone else and then doing nixers on top of that. If he works for himself hes likely earning even more.

    Fintan who has a Business degree gets 2% pay rises every now and again at Big Box company X, earns less than Deco and is treated much worse but feels superior.

    His day to day job involves producing TPS reports that nobody reads or can remmber asking for and he is at a loss as to how Deco who does something actually useful is earning more given he did everything right. (Likely has a Masters too).


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,218 ✭✭✭ Fr_Dougal


    Weak sauce


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,536 ✭✭✭ Northernlily


    If you can pay rent, and demonstrate financial prudence for a couple of years whilst holding down a relatively steady career you can pay your mortgage.

    I get the sense some (only some) mortgage holders get a kick out of seeing renters stuck in that trap. Not all of us have a partner or can rely on parents to give a small push so the struggle is different for all.

    Also majority of banking/finance jobs generally pay ****e unless you meander into a specialist position. A Sparks would pay better than operational and management roles in many of these industries.

    Deco and Fintan lol. Very clichéd names. I've seen more than a few Decos in the bank for sure.


  • Registered Users Posts: 651 ✭✭✭ Nika Bolokov


    If you can pay rent, and demonstrate financial prudence for a couple of years whilst holding down a relatively steady career you can pay your mortgage.

    I get the sense some (only some) mortgage holders get a kick out of seeing renters stuck in that trap. Not all of us have a partner or can rely on parents to give a small push so the struggle is different for all.

    Also majority of banking/finance jobs generally pay ****e unless you meander into a specialist position. A Sparks would pay better than operational and management roles in many of these industries.

    Deco and Fintan lol. Very clichéd names. I've seen more than a few Decos in the bank for sure.

    Agree, many people would be surprised at the incomes in the trades.

    I remember being in a lift in one of the previous big name companies mentioned and an admin standard office employee was talking about a former employee who had a fantastic degree from UCD but left the company to work on building sites in Canada was nuts, insane etc, her colleague simply replied 'hes just bought a house'.


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,519 ✭✭✭✭ Leg End Reject


    djan wrote: »
    I think the issue is when someone has been paying 1300 eur rent per month for close to 10 years being told that they cannot afford a mortgage of 700. This being due to the often ridiculous estimated spending of having a child (over 1k in some cases).

    That understandably does not sit well with those effected.

    That must be a kicker and I'd imagine a major contributing factor is that fact that banks have a Herculean task repossessing when owners default.

    I understand the need to have realistic borrowing limits, but there's no reason for someone to keep a home when they don't meet the repayments. A glut of repossessions would change mindsets and the housing market.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 490 ✭✭ grassylawn


    Why wouldn't you count rent payments as evidence of capacity?

    They clearly are, and they were accepted as such for us.

    We had a baby too.

    Some of the normal meanspirited bollocks on this thread really.


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,122 ✭✭✭✭ Donald Trump


    What a lot of these people are saying, in dog whistle form, is this.

    "I went to school with a lad who never did a tap of work, dropped out with barely a junior cert, while he moved from warehouse to cash in hand to warehouse I and my now missus were doing four years of business studies, a year of travel, an unpaid internship and now we both have been 5 years in Irish Life/ AIB/ Allianz Insurance/ insert "good job" name company here.

    Your man from school did a bricklaying apprenticeship at some point and he and his hairdresser missus have two kids and bought a house three years ago."

    Quite a lot of people were sold a lie in school. The dosser, the lad who showed up half the time, might not have even done a JC, often due to various current economics was on a much better path than the lad who was told to go to college.

    The primary problem in this instance is that the corporate world has minimal union coverage and, to my knowledge, SEO minimum rates don't exist in the majority of it.

    Many graduates, after 4 years, are offere an unpaid internship, or a salary that the blurb describes as competitive.

    25K is not competitive. And a raise of 3 or 5% a year is not competitive either.

    It's bull****, and Deco your man who dropped out would laugh at anybody who tried offering him that to sweep floors on a building site, never mind do a trade.




    Most graduates, after 4 years, are starting another part of their education by entering the workforce and starting to learn on the job. Salary is not as important in the first few years (as long as you can afford it) as the experience. It is another investment in yourself.


    College is not for everyone, but if you have a degree you have a basic foundation to fall back on. Education is always a good investment as long as you make an effort at it.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,584 ✭✭✭ screamer


    Because banks look for proof of saving money every month as an indicator that you’ll be able to pay mortgage.People renting obviously can’t save very much if they’re paying massive rent, so they equate that demonstrating your ability to save a chunk of money with the ability to pay a chunk of money in rent. To be honest, it should be taken into account, and it’s a valid point.


  • Registered Users Posts: 682 ✭✭✭ Vestiapx


    Most graduates, after 4 years, are starting another part of their education by entering the workforce and starting to learn on the job. Salary is not as important in the first few years (as long as you can afford it) as the experience. It is another investment in yourself.


    College is not for everyone, but if you have a degree you have a basic foundation to fall back on. Education is always a good investment as long as you make an effort at it.

    You are right but so many graduates think that the degree is the end. I have a degree and a useful one at that and I'm a manager and I could leave it tomorrow to do site work for 25% more. I don't because I prefer to work my physically comfortable job as a base and do nixxers for added income, a change is as good as a rest.


  • Registered Users Posts: 825 ✭✭✭ The chan chan man


    Because everyone should be entitled to a fair shot. A couple shouldn’t have to earn €100k between them to buy a 3 bed semi in Dublin. Somethings gotta give here.


  • Registered Users Posts: 309 ✭✭ dockysher


    Does paying for a session on the beer ever now and then serve as proof you can repay a mortgage?


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,002 ✭✭✭ Finty Lemon


    Because everyone should be entitled to a fair shot. A couple shouldn’t have to earn €100k between them to buy a 3 bed semi in Dublin. Somethings gotta give here.

    Whats gotta give
    Foreign holiday x2 every year
    The beauticians bill
    Weekend takeaways
    PCP cars
    Takeaway coffee bullshxt
    Asos
    Premier league 'pilgrimages' (pis$ups)
    De fags
    There's a chunky deposit to be had within 40 months for most mid earning couples out of this junk. Just sayin.


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,201 ✭✭✭✭ markodaly


    JizzBeans wrote: »
    700 euro, wow.


    In any case a mortgage isn't just about monthly repayments. There's also the deposit, stamp duty, solicitors fees and all sorts of costs.

    Please tell us how a person or couple paying 1300 a month rent CANNOT afford a mortgage of 700 a month..

    Go on.. I think Ill be waiting a while.


  • Registered Users Posts: 682 ✭✭✭ Vestiapx


    Because everyone should be entitled to a fair shot. A couple shouldn’t have to earn €100k between them to buy a 3 bed semi in Dublin. Somethings gotta give here.

    What part of Dublin.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 772 ✭✭✭ nolivesmatter


    grassylawn wrote: »
    Why wouldn't you count rent payments as evidence of capacity?

    They clearly are, and they were accepted as such for us.

    We had a baby too.

    Some of the normal meanspirited bollocks on this thread really.

    Right. Rent is literally the closest thing to paying a mortgage you can use to gage a persons capacity to pay a mortgage.


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