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Maya Forstater: Woman wins tribunal appeal over transgender tweet

  • 10-06-2021 12:52pm
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 58 ✭✭✭ PreparationH


    Another brilliant step forward for real, actual, verifiable truth over ideological driven wants.


    https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-57426579


    Today Maya Forstater won her case; it is now illegal in the UK to fire someone stating objective reality. While it might take a while as so many people in Ireland erroneously still believe that T is gay 2.0, I do believe we can do the right thing by our children especially, repeal this gender nonsense and place Sex firmly back at the center where it belongs.


    Be braver than yesterday, fight this good fight.


«13

Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 30,264 ✭✭✭✭ Gatling


    Well done Maya ,

    Common sense finally prevailed


  • Registered Users Posts: 949 ✭✭✭ Cymro


    It's actually an interesting ruling beyond the trans issue, for free speech in general. Justice Choudry seems to have set a precedent in law that any belief which falls short of being "Nazism or totalitarian" will pass the Grainger V test, regardless of whether it is "offensive". I imagine that many philosophical beliefs would fall down on criteria I-IV, but it still seems like a win for people who hold free speech as a fundamental value of free democratic society.

    This article is a long-but-good exploration of what ramifications could be expected after this judgment.

    https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/forstater-judgment-what-next-peter-daly


  • Registered Users Posts: 15,307 ✭✭✭✭ Spanish Eyes


    A rebalance is evident now. Women can now say they that they do not believe transwomen who self ID are women. All based on sex rather than deciding on a gender it seems.

    The infiltration of women's spaces by transgender idealogues and the criminalisation of those who criticised this was far too insidious and powerful for the numbers involved. I am heartened by the judgment for free speech and reality. Stonewall is self immolating too. Good.


  • Registered Users Posts: 949 ✭✭✭ Cymro


    A lot of these sorts of tweets popping up:

    https://twitter.com/mlothianmclean/status/1402924859945017345

    Which is odd, since Forstater has never, to my knowledge, expressed a desire to harass, discriminate against or intimidate trans people. She just does not believe that humans are sequentially hermaphroditic.

    It seems very disingenuous for a group of activists to spend months gloating in the bailey that a woman has been fired for saying that transwomen are not female... and then, when the judgment goes the other way, to to run back up to the motte and pretend that it was in any way related to harassment or discrimination of trans people.


  • Registered Users Posts: 19,802 ✭✭✭✭ suicide_circus


    Well yes there is a fair amount of scrambling going on on twitter to muddy the waters.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 30,264 ✭✭✭✭ Gatling


    She didn't harass or discriminate against anyone ,


    she told the truth


  • Registered Users Posts: 58 ✭✭✭ PreparationH


    Cymro wrote: »
    A lot of these sorts of tweets popping up:

    Which is odd, since Forstater has never, to my knowledge, expressed a desire to harass, discriminate against or intimidate trans people. She just does not believe that humans are sequentially hermaphroditic.

    It seems very disingenuous for a group of activists to spend months gloating in the bailey that a woman has been fired for saying that transwomen are not female... and then, when the judgment goes the other way, to to run back up to the motte and pretend that it was in any way related to harassment or discrimination of trans people.


    It is my experience that Everything is transphobic and even the thought of having a discussion about T is considered transphobic. The slur is cast around so much now that it has got as much value as a GRC.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,709 ✭✭✭ keano_afc


    Today is a good day.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,592 ✭✭✭ circadian


    While I don't think she should have been punished for voicing her opinion (as long as it wasn't incendiary, racist etc) I don't understand why people are so worried about what gender someone else identifies as. I simply do not understand why people are so concerned with what someone else does in their own life that has absolutely no bearing on their own


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 8,180 Mod ✭✭✭✭ mewso


    circadian wrote: »
    While I don't think she should have been punished for voicing her opinion (as long as it wasn't incendiary, racist etc) I don't understand why people are so worried about what gender someone else identifies as. I simply do not understand why people are so concerned with what someone else does in their own life that has absolutely no bearing on their own

    You haven't been watching enough alt-right youtubers. Watch enough of them and you'll soon see how our way of life is being attacked. Tweet by tweet.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 30,264 ✭✭✭✭ Gatling


    circadian wrote: »
    While I don't think she should have been punished for voicing her opinion (as long as it wasn't incendiary, racist etc) I don't understand why people are so worried about what gender someone else identifies as. I simply do not understand why people are so concerned with what someone else does in their own life that has absolutely no bearing on their own

    This is the problem you can identify as anything you want and there is no issue ,but it a woman and it's mainly women come out and say you can be whatever you want but it's doesn't mean I or we have to believe it than some randomer on twitter calls your employer and tells then your making transhobic statements and you they need to be sacked or they ring the police and report them for transhobic hate crimes ,
    It's been weaponoised by a small cohort of Tra and groups


  • Registered Users Posts: 58 ✭✭✭ PreparationH


    circadian wrote: »
    I simply do not understand why people are so concerned with what someone else does in their own life that has absolutely no bearing on their own
    • How would you feel if the intimate care nurse assigned to your elderly mother was a fully intact biological male? And if she complained about it she'd be called a bigot?
    • How would you feel if your daughter was forced to share toilets with biological males?
    • How would you feel if your vulnerable female relative was forced to share her prison cell with a fully intact biological male? And when the door was locked she was truly alone?
    • How would you feel if your daughters athletic scholarship was robbed off her by a beta-male who calls himself female?
    • How would you feel if you found out that your son's and daughters were going away on a scouting weekend with the local troop and there was a fully intact biological male alone with them as their leader and the other scout leaders were told that they could not reveal the truth about the fox in the coop?
    • How would you feel that the biological male in the troop could hide his real name and past by threatening anyone who asked questions with the sin of dead-naming...
    • How does it feel to know that Stonewall were telling huge massive porkies about what the law says re: gender recognition?
    • How does it feel to know that the road to hell is paved with good intentions and while these things were brought in by many organizations to help what they saw as a marginalized minority, the structures and denial of even the most basic discussion has provided a cloak for some very dodgy characters and predatory males to do whatever they wanted to do and if anyone said anything, all they had to say was "TRANSPHOBE!" and all of their detractors melted away?


    You have got a LOT of catching up to do


  • Registered Users Posts: 58 ✭✭✭ PreparationH


    mewso wrote: »
    You haven't been watching enough alt-right youtubers. Watch enough of them and you'll soon see how our way of life is being attacked. Tweet by tweet.


    Alt right... or maybe it's just a complete lack of maturity to see things in black/white - good/evil Maybe the world is more nuanced than the teenagers thought process.... *shock horror!


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,910 ✭✭✭ Cordell


    circadian wrote: »
    While I don't think she should have been punished for voicing her opinion (as long as it wasn't incendiary, racist etc) I don't understand why people are so worried about what gender someone else identifies as. I simply do not understand why people are so concerned with what someone else does in their own life that has absolutely no bearing on their own

    You don't have to understand, you only have to accept their right to voice these things, including racist views, without facing any kind of punishment from the law or their employer.
    It's absolutely unacceptable to get fired because things you say in your free time and not representing your employer.


  • Registered Users Posts: 326 ✭✭ Gentlemanne


    Worth pointing out that despite everyone saying she was fired, that's not what happened. She just didn't have her contract renewed.

    Personally I like to have the basic facts of the topic before I discuss it, but it seems like that's a standard not everyone abides by.


  • Registered Users Posts: 30,264 ✭✭✭✭ Gatling


    Worth pointing out that despite everyone saying she was fired, that's not what happened. She just didn't have her contract renewed.
    .

    Aka fired


  • Registered Users Posts: 19,802 ✭✭✭✭ suicide_circus


    circadian wrote: »
    While I don't think she should have been punished for voicing her opinion (as long as it wasn't incendiary, racist etc) I don't understand why people are so worried about what gender someone else identifies as. I simply do not understand why people are so concerned with what someone else does in their own life that has absolutely no bearing on their own

    To continue with the parlance, no one cares what you "identify" as. But that does not trump another persons right to recognise biological reality.


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    So courtesy aside, does this mean "misgendering" someone is not in fact a heinous crime, but is merely "correctly sexing" ?

    A win for common sense.


  • Registered Users Posts: 326 ✭✭ Gentlemanne


    Gatling wrote: »
    Aka fired

    Not even worth reading more of this thread if it's going to devolve into semantics but the legal implications of her just not having her contract renewed vs. a formal dismissal is huge, especially in a case like this which wil set precedence.


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,987 ✭✭✭✭ Potential-Monke


    I love if you Google Maya Forstater contract details and the first 2 results are:

    Maya Forstater: Woman wins tribunal appeal over transgender ...https://www.bbc.com › news
    6 hours ago — Ms Forstater, from St Albans in Hertfordshire, did not have her contract renewed at the think tank Center for Global Development (CGD) in March ...
    Missing: details ‎| Must include: details

    Maya Forstater: Woman loses tribunal over transgender ... - BBChttps://www.bbc.com › news
    19 Dec 2019 — Maya Forstater, 45, did not have her contract renewed after posting a series of tweets questioning government plans to let people declare their ...
    Missing: details ‎| Must include: details


    Re: Contract not renewed vs fired, we'd need more details to see if it's related to the tweets. If she could (and did?) prove that it wasn't renewed because of the tweets, it's basically the same as being fired (minus all the really negative stuff that goes with it). TBH, these contract jobs, I never liked them. The uncertaintly of employment would get to me. Granted, I know I can be let go at any time with proper notice, but still, I'm sure Maya was able to link them. She won anyway, and it's a win for common sense imo. Yes, we should be mindful of what we call people, but this case has proven that finally, feelings will not win over scientific facts.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 6,995 ✭✭✭ mcmoustache


    Cordell wrote: »
    You don't have to understand, you only have to accept their right to voice these things, including racist views, without facing any kind of punishment from the law or their employer.
    It's absolutely unacceptable to get fired because things you say in your free time and not representing your employer.


    Ah now. If people stopped frequenting my widget business because an employee was tweeting about his fantasies about fúcking babies, I don't think I should be required to keep him on. That guy costing me money would need to go.


  • Registered Users Posts: 326 ✭✭ Gentlemanne


    mewso wrote: »
    You haven't been watching enough alt-right youtubers. Watch enough of them and you'll soon see how our way of life is being attacked. Tweet by tweet.

    Radicalisation by YouTube is an unfortunate thing that's seeming more and more relevant.

    It doesn't have to be "5G Vaccine Microchip" level but insidious stuff like anti-trans content is unfortunately really prevalent.


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    ... this case has proven that finally, feelings will not win over scientific facts.

    To a certain extent, I think many among the scientific community (I count myself among them) didn't distinguish itself, in kow towing to the subversion of scientific fact for nonsense.

    Shades of Galileo.


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Fantastic news. Like how the Earth isn't flat, trans-women aren't women. Saying such is not hateful, it is factual.

    Science will prevail.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,995 ✭✭✭ mcmoustache


    Radicalisation by YouTube is an unfortunate thing that's seeming more and more relevant.

    It doesn't have to be "5G Vaccine Microchip" level but insidious stuff like anti-trans content is unfortunately really prevalent.


    Just watch a Joe Rogan video and see what your suggestions look like after. It'll start to look like the youtube feed of that overweight acquaintance who couldn't get the ride and hates women as a result.


    That being said, a lot of the pushback against things like self id aren't a creation of the alt-right ecosystem - rather, the apparent absurdity of it is being used as a hook to drag otherwise reasonable people into that type of stuff.


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Just watch a Joe Rogan video and see what your suggestions look like after. It'll start to look like the youtube feed of that overweight acquaintance who couldn't get the ride and hates women as a result.


    That being said, a lot of the pushback against things like self id aren't a creation of the alt-right ecosystem - rather, the apparent absurdity of it is being used as a hook to drag otherwise reasonable people into that type of stuff.

    I've watched Joe Rogan clips and my feed gave started giving Lex Friedman and MMA videos, so I think the results you are getting is a reflection on you more than anything.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,995 ✭✭✭ mcmoustache


    Hhhhh wrote: »
    I've watched Joe Rogan clips and my feed gave started giving Lex Friedman and MMA videos, so I think the results you are getting is a reflection on you more than anything.


    Depends on what was already there I guess.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,231 ✭✭✭ Hercule Poirot


    I think the crux of the matter here is that she simply stated her beliefs, which she is fully entitled to do. It's no different to someone saying they believe in God, it's a belief.

    She didn't call trans people derogatory names or verbally abuse any - she did absolutely nothing wrong.

    This a long overdue victory for common sense.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,966 ✭✭✭ ceadaoin.


    Ah now. If people stopped frequenting my widget business because an employee was tweeting about his fantasies about fúcking babies, I don't think I should be required to keep him on. That guy costing me money would need to go.

    Yeah but saying that a human being can't literally change their sex is an actual fact and is hardly on same level as a child rapist is it? What a ridiculous comparison


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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Worth pointing out that despite everyone saying she was fired, that's not what happened. She just didn't have her contract renewed.

    Personally I like to have the basic facts of the topic before I discuss it, but it seems like that's a standard not everyone abides by.

    She didn't have her contract renewed because of her views. It was a de-facto firing. Had she not publicly stated what she did her contract would likely have been renewed.


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