MENS: 'Mental' Health..

El_Duderino 09

silverharp wrote: »

I specifically said being depressed not debilitating depression that forces people off work etc. I phrased it specifically but you chose to ignore it

No. You didn't say any of that stuff. It might have been what you were thinking, but you didn't say that. You said "
A lot of the milder mental health issues like being depressed, listless, low self esteem etc".

I'll take you at your word if that's what you meant to say, but it's pretty clear you didn't say any of that.

Wibbs

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Yeah but how do you, personally, tell the difference between the two? Why is it your job to distinguish between them?

I never said it was, but we all make judgements on a daily basis on many things.

But i don't think it's my job to discern the degree to which a bloke (celebrity or not) on the radio is experiencing a diagnosable bout of mental illness or just feeling a bit down - there are professionals to do that.

Indeed yet it seems they're not doing so well at their diagnoses or treatments. It is a near given when new treatments and medical theories and more specialists are fired at a medical problem there's naturally an initial spike in numbers of those diagnosed, followed by a corresponding rise in "cures" and drop in overall numbers. This hasn't happened with mental illnesses. The rates indeed have gone up over the last few decades as more and more such illnesses are added to an expanding list. In the US where medicalisation with a z has gone ever up, after a tapering off in the 90's the rate of suicide is now the highest since world war 2. Yet we have apparently far more treatments, avenues of treatment, lower rates of stigma and more people talking about mental illness than ever. Nobody was discussing mental illnesses in the 40's and 50's and therapies were few and far between and yet...

We're also still being peddled the "chemical imbalance" mantra around mental illness, something that has pretty much zero evidence for it and can even increase the risk of pessimism about recovery and more depressive symptoms. One study among many here.

Results: Biochemical and genetic causal attributions for depression were significantly associated with prognostic pessimism among symptomatic individuals. The malleability intervention significantly reduced prognostic pessimism, increased feelings of agency, and decreased general hopelessness.

And I'll bet the farm many reading this will believe in this unproven "chemical imbalance" theory.

And those drugs like SSRI's that supposed to correct this imbalance are being handed out in a similar way that antibiotics were handed out(which didn't pan out too well) too often after an usually all too brief consultation with a local GP have some serious questions around efficacy in mild to medium levels of depression/anxiety and some serious side effects, including more suicide ideation, never mind withdrawal from them. Never mind that the criterias and questionaires for their perscription were drafted by the makers of these drugs. This is not "big pharma" guff, it is what it is, they did the research and produced the drugs, so naturally they will promote them.

Take efficacy. Best case studies show 5-6% difference between placebo and SSRI's in mild to moderate cases. This from the British Royal College of GP's.

Are antidepressants effective for mild-to-moderate depression?

The majority of patients in primary care with depression are in the mild (6%) or moderate levels of severity (3.9%) and 3.9% are in the moderate-severe to severe range (Table 2). Patient level meta-analysis found that the NNT for milder-to-moderate depression was 16, 11 for severe, and for very severe 4.16 The median control event rate (the placebo response) is about 47% in primary care trials of antidepressants. 18 An NNT of 16 represents a 6% gain in terms of a better outcome. Thus, in a randomised controlled trial of patients in the mild-to-moderate range 53% would get better with an active medication and 47% would get better with placebo. The authors of this patient level meta-analysis found that true drug effects (for instance an advantage of antidepressant medication over placebo) were non-existent with mild-to-moderate and even severe baseline symptoms but were large for those with very severe symptoms.

NB the underlined. Stong efficacy for very severe, feck all for mild/moderate. Put it another way; in a best case scenario of a 6% difference in outcome with an antibiotic over a placebo, would you consider that a worthwhile antibiotic, would you take one for an infection? I doubt it and yet how many people out there are on these meds?

The pushing of the "female" as the ideal and only way to behave isn't helpful for roughly half the population. Talking about stuff can help but a lot of the time it doesn't. I find once I've thought something out I don't really need to talk about it again. Usually if something is affecting me then talking about it just reaffirms whatever (usually negative) conclusion I've already come to.
If anything the whole "just talk" thing comes across as glib and condescending half the time to me.
As well as that there's the denial of reality thing. I had an awful year last year (parent got cancer, made redundant, car failed completely, had to find a new place to live, injured myself, put on weight, all that jazz) and while thankfully most of my mates put up with the odd moan the more right-on and in-tune with the current thought on how to deal with stuff would be like "Ah ya can't let that get you down." and "Yeah but there's no point focussing on the negatives". Yeah, real ****in helpful. Sometimes things are just ****e and you should be feeling pretty ****e about them.

As for SSRIs they seem like they have a use in some cases, even if it's just to give a nudge or slightly reboot some parts of thought processes and patterns.
Unfortunately they seem to be moving towards any sadness being certifiable. The latest DSM got rid of the suggestion that maybe someone feeling sad up to 6 weeks after a bereavement is, ya know, grieving, and anti-depressants are probably the answer.

Feisar

Deleted User wrote: »

The pushing of the "female" as the ideal and only way to behave isn't helpful for roughly half the population. Talking about stuff can help but a lot of the time it doesn't. I find once I've thought something out I don't really need to talk about it again. Usually if something is affecting me then talking about it just reaffirms whatever (usually negative) conclusion I've already come to.
If anything the whole "just talk" thing comes across as glib and condescending half the time to me.
As well as that there's the denial of reality thing. I had an awful year last year (parent got cancer, made redundant, car failed completely, had to find a new place to live, injured myself, put on weight, all that jazz) and while thankfully most of my mates put up with the odd moan the more right-on and in-tune with the current thought on how to deal with stuff would be like "Ah ya can't let that get you down." and "Yeah but there's no point focussing on the negatives". Yeah, real ****in helpful. Sometimes things are just ****e and you should be feeling pretty ****e about them.

Yea sometimes one just needs to grit their teeth and lean into the breeze.

Talking/looking at positives amounts to doodle squat.

silverharp

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

No. You didn't say any of that stuff. It might have been what you were thinking, but you didn't say that. You said "
A lot of the milder mental health issues like being depressed, listless, low self esteem etc".

I'll take you at your word if that's what you meant to say, but it's pretty clear you didn't say any of that.

Ill go with my use of the English language thanks, on the quickest of google searches there were any number of articled headed thus

https://www.healthyplace.com/blogs/mentalhealthforthedigitalgeneration/2017/10/the-difference-between-being-depressed-and-having-depression

The Difference Between Being Depressed and Having Depression

Feisar

Feisar wrote: »

Talking/looking at positives amounts to doodle squat.

Sorry answer a bit long but why not - if someone generally in mental health distress reads the thread they might get something out of it. If not then it cost me only 10 minutes of my time so no great loss:

It does and it doesn't. The people to be wary of are the ones who sell anything as a definite solution. If they are telling you talk will definitely help - or meditation will definitely help - or changing from a sedentary life to one of exercise will definitely help - then they are talking crap at you.

What talk - meditation - exercise - diet changes - CBT - or whatever are - are potentially useful tools to help you move from one level of well being to a better level of well being. They can be tried - they might work - they might not. The trick is to try. So be equally wary of the people who tell you some possible solution will definitely not help or do "doodle squat" too

Worse - there is no guarantee that because it did not work once that it will not work the next time. You can talk 100 times about your mental health problems with 20 different people and get absolutely nothing out of it.

But suddenly with person 21 something clicks. Maybe the chemistry between you. Maybe a thought occurred to you that time that did not another time. Maybe that person simply asks an off hand question that makes you consider everything in a new light. Or maybe they say the same thing the previous 20 did but in a new and unique way. Who knows. But just because talking does not help when you try it - that does not tell you it never will. Or ever will. It's entirely down to the individual whether to try it again.

For me "talking" helped far in my past. Not even because of the talking itself. But the person I was talking to just gave me a few key words I had never heard before. And language is powerful stuff sometimes. Simply having a word for something that you never did before - can help you form ideas and plans and concepts that you otherwise might not have. For me the words "Enmeshment" and "External Locus of Evaluation" were trigger points for a complete overhaul of my outlook in the world and of myself and my own self worth.

And I have heard others say the same thing that they suffered for a long time with something and then suddenly when they got a word for that something - changes occurred in them. The Podcaster Blindboy is an example I think - who also speaks about how the simple discovery of the word "Panic Attack" was a flash point in his climbing out of all kinds of mental health issues.

So it is good we are talking about Mental Health more often and more publicly in society. Even if just because some words or concepts might reach the right ear at the right moment and change everything for them.

I guess this was part of the premise behind the book 1984 by Orwell. The Ministry was removing words from the English Language not just to control communication. But also because the less words the populace had - the less likely they were to arrive at anti-state concepts like "freedom" and "individuality" and "rights". In the opposite direction putting new words into your brain that were not there before can coalesce all kinds of new thoughts and ideas and premises that can help you in many ways.

El_Duderino 09

silverharp wrote: »

Ill go with my use of the English language thanks, on the quickest of google searches there were any number of articled headed thus

https://www.healthyplace.com/blogs/mentalhealthforthedigitalgeneration/2017/10/the-difference-between-being-depressed-and-having-depression

I take the correction. I am now an example of how there ought to be more good quality, open discussion of mental health/ill health.

Thelonious Monk

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

Also "Mental Health" is now used by people who are inconvenienced somewhat, we saw a lot of it during covid - my mental health is suffering because I can't play golf, go to the pub, or go to the beach, that one seemed to be a popular one around these parts.

I know what you mean. There are a lot of whinge bags in the world. But at the same time I would not jump to that conclusion with any particular individual who is complaining they can not get down the gym or the pub.

Mental Health and Well being can have many sources and be quite individual. What we derive it from as individuals can vary. But there are _some_ things that are quite common.

Routine - hope - security - and meaning tend to be some of them. There was some things written about "hope" in Nazi Concentration Camps for example. The people most likely to survive those camps were the ones who held on to some kind of hope and meaning. Actually I recommend a good podcast that came out recently speaking about the people who intentionally got themselves put into such camps. As in part of it they cover that exact thing.

So for some people having their routine stripped away - or the things that they derived meaning from (however mundane their thing might seem to us - like golf) can be quite jarring for them.

So if someone presented to me saying they are suffering Mental Health decline because they could not follow their particular hobby - I think my first reaction would be empathy rather than disdain or assuming they are just having a whinge. Rather I would try and work out with them what security - routing - or meaning that hobby brought them and then work with them to discover if they could find the same things elsewhere.

El_Duderino 09

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

I take the correction. I am now an example of how there ought to be more good quality, open discussion of mental health/ill health.

Not sure why - but open and genuine "Mea Culpa" moments always bring a tear to my eye and bring me increased respect for the person who did it.

Christy42

Deleted User wrote: »

The pushing of the "female" as the ideal and only way to behave isn't helpful for roughly half the population. Talking about stuff can help but a lot of the time it doesn't. I find once I've thought something out I don't really need to talk about it again. Usually if something is affecting me then talking about it just reaffirms whatever (usually negative) conclusion I've already come to.
If anything the whole "just talk" thing comes across as glib and condescending half the time to me.
As well as that there's the denial of reality thing. I had an awful year last year (parent got cancer, made redundant, car failed completely, had to find a new place to live, injured myself, put on weight, all that jazz) and while thankfully most of my mates put up with the odd moan the more right-on and in-tune with the current thought on how to deal with stuff would be like "Ah ya can't let that get you down." and "Yeah but there's no point focussing on the negatives". Yeah, real ****in helpful. Sometimes things are just ****e and you should be feeling pretty ****e about them.

As for SSRIs they seem like they have a use in some cases, even if it's just to give a nudge or slightly reboot some parts of thought processes and patterns.
Unfortunately they seem to be moving towards any sadness being certifiable. The latest DSM got rid of the suggestion that maybe someone feeling sad up to 6 weeks after a bereavement is, ya know, grieving, and anti-depressants are probably the answer.

While I accept people will deal with in different ways the framing it as "female" is pretty random. Many, many men have said that talking has helped them. No need for you to call their way "female" while you are at it. It isn't. It is just their way of dealing with it and something that has helped people whatever gender they have.

Your friends are also not in tune with the modern way of looking at it (or at least the ones who told you to get over it). The modern way of dealing with it is to simply be there for someone. Either to listen or simply sit with them in silence for a bit if that is what they want. Again this may not be for everyone but I would not be labeling it with a gender.

Christy42

Christy42 wrote: »

While I accept people will deal with in different ways the framing it as "female" is pretty random. Many, many men have said that talking has helped them. No need for you to call their way "female" while you are at it. It isn't. It is just their way of dealing with it and something that has helped people whatever gender they have.

It's the whole "Men don't talk" thing and how they need to be more like women in order to reduce suicide rates etc. "Just talk", "don't keep it to yourself", all that glib nonsense.
I put it in inverted commas because it's just another little product being used to push something.

Your friends are also not in tune with the modern way of looking at it (or at least the ones who told you to get over it). The modern way of dealing with it is to simply be there for someone. Either to listen or simply sit with them in silence for a bit if that is what they want. Again this may not be for everyone but I would not be labeling it with a gender.

No no, they don't say "get over it" because that's not good, they throw some nonsense buzzwords from the last Instagram meme they saw but it amounts to the same thing. "Can't let things get you down" etc., even when the only way to not get down about stuff would be to have some pretty amazing cognitive dissonance and/or powers of denial.

Back In Cagie Wagie

I never expected anything good to happen to me in life and guess what, nothing good ever did happen. So now I grind out the days, spend as much time as possible drunk and see escorts. And yet I've never been depressed or had mental problems.

So how come a fcuked up loser like me is better equipped to deal with life than many successful people?

Christy42

Deleted User wrote: »

It's the whole "Men don't talk" thing and how they need to be more like women in order to reduce suicide rates etc. "Just talk", "don't keep it to yourself", all that glib nonsense.
I put it in inverted commas because it's just another little product being used to push something.


No no, they don't say "get over it" because that's not good, they throw some nonsense buzzwords from the last Instagram meme they saw but it amounts to the same thing. "Can't let things get you down" etc., even when the only way to not get down about stuff would be to have some pretty amazing cognitive dissonance and/or powers of denial.

If it isn't only for women then why do you think it doesn't work for half the population? It isn't anything about being more like women. It means talking has helped many people. Talking about problems does not have a gender.

Like I said can't let things get you down or whatever is not the modern way to deal with it. In fact it sounds very much like the 1900s method of stiff upper lip just rephrased slightly

Wibbs

Deleted User wrote: »

It's the whole "Men don't talk" thing and how they need to be more like women in order to reduce suicide rates etc. "Just talk", "don't keep it to yourself", all that glib nonsense.

Interestingly the suicide rates for men were lower in the era of "stiff upper lip", even accounting for lower reporting. EG the demographic once one of the least likely to have suicide ideation, who now have one of the highest are middle aged men. I would most certainly favour talk therapy and things like CBT over more drugs, but it seems something is going wrong in modern western society and we need to be looking at the whys of that, otherwise we're papering over the cracks to some degree.

In a society like America this is even more stark. In say the 1950's when mental illness was a stigma, treatments were non existent or unhelpful for the most part and guns were much more easily available, the number of shooting sprees and murder/suicides by men was absolutely tiny. That really took off in the 90's.

Wibbs

Christy42 wrote: »

Like I said can't let things get you down or whatever is not the modern way to deal with it.

Just because something is "modern" and currently fashionable doesn't give any real indication of its efficacy and the rise of mental illnesses particularly in men seems to back that up. Results matter and the results don't look so great. I'm not saying go stiff upper lip either, but we need to spread our focuses more widely.

Strumms

Back In Cagie Wagie wrote: »

I never expected anything good to happen to me in life and guess what, nothing good ever did happen. So now I grind out the days, spend as much time as possible drunk and see escorts. And yet I've never been depressed or had mental problems.

So how come a fcuked up loser like me is better equipped to deal with life than many successful people?

You have hobbies that’s good, you are an alcohol connoisseur and you have an interest in old ‘80s family, everyday saloons.

SEPT 23 1989

Back In Cagie Wagie wrote: »

I never expected anything good to happen to me in life and guess what, nothing good ever did happen. So now I grind out the days, spend as much time as possible drunk and see escorts. And yet I've never been depressed or had mental problems.

So how come a fcuked up loser like me is better equipped to deal with life than many successful people?

Wine,women and song

It's worked for thousands of years

Nothing wrong with it

Sam Quentin

Back In Cagie Wagie wrote: »

I never expected anything good to happen to me in life and guess what, nothing good ever did happen. So now I grind out the days, spend as much time as possible drunk and see escorts. And yet I've never been depressed or had mental problems.

So how come a fcuked up loser like me is better equipped to deal with life than many successful people?

Because you're not a greedy or jealous person..both of which can be easily curtailed or ignored and not acted on..