Ireland has developed a moral obligation to defend zionism

[Deleted User]

Daniel O'Connell once said that the Irish people had a "special claim" on Jewish people because, during his life, we were the only 'race' never to have persecuted Jews.

Except for one notable example (the Limerick Boycott) -- which was nothing more than a local row -- that record remains intact.

We occupy a fairly unique perspective in European politics. We have no history of condemning, or alienating zionism as a matter of national policy; we never deported jews by our own desire, and jewish people have been here for centuries.

It strikes me that, instead of aiding the self-determination of the jewish people, we have lately taken the side of Palestine, and have abandoned our nominal neutrality in so-doing. In pursuing our tacit support for Palestine, we have squandered political capital.

I am not suggesting we support the state of Israel, far from it.

I simply think we could have, and still can, play a more constructive role in international affairs by emphasising our history of non-aggression, and developing a policy in favour of a sustainable, peacable jewish state. We should be emphasising our historical non-agression against zionism, including at the level of the United Nations.

In short, I think we are risking our role as a possible honest broker.

Nody

How can you risk something you never had? Let's actually look at history without some rose tinted glasses:

Ireland only extended de jure recognition to Israel in 1963, and both countries established diplomatic relations in 1975, when Ireland's ambassador to Switzerland was also accredited to Israel. Prior to that, Ireland had refused to establish relations due to Israel's alleged violations of UN Resolutions. In 1981, however, Ireland condemned Israel's attack on Iraq's nuclear reactor. Ireland did not allow an Israeli embassy to open until 20 December 1993. Two weeks prior to that, Ireland had allowed PLO Leader Yasser Arafat to visit and open a delegation.

Not exactly the most pro Israel history there now is it? Sorry but there is no "special claim" to Jewish people in Ireland and no special bond either, in the same way there is no special bond between UK and USA.

Above quote from Wiki.

Sonics2k

A Lamb Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Daniel O'Connell once said that the Irish people had a "special claim" on Jewish people because, during his life, we were the only 'race' never to have persecuted Jews.

Daniel O'Connell was a bit of a moron then, as there was certainly more than the Irish who never persecuted Jewish people.

ancapailldorcha

You haven't really presented a case for Ireland having any sort of obligation here. You've suggested a potential role Ireland could have but even this seems unlikely to me. I frankly don't think there's any benefit to Ireland from defending Zionism. Israel isn't going anywhere and has much better support already than anything Ireland could ever offer.

[Deleted User]

Nody wrote: »

Sorry but there is no "special claim" to Jewish people

Ehh... sorry, to be clear: there is no question of a "special claim", and that is not what I said. I merely provided part of a statement by Daniel O'Connell of minor historical interest, just to place our relationship in an historical context.

Quote wikipedia all you like, but do not misquote me, please.

[Deleted User]

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I frankly don't think there's any benefit to Ireland from defending Zionism.

Well, the benefit isn't ours. Presumably we care about peace. Peace-building is a topic of which we have a bit of experience, and perhaps we could assist in that in international affairs.

StringerBell

I think calling out injustice where you see it is very rare in politics but should absolutely be done. Ireland and the Irish people will always have an affinity and 'stand with' oppressed people, or people who we view as being oppressed.

It's not even so much an ideological alignment with anything the leaders in Gaza stand for or a shared liberal world view because obviously there isn't one. What Israel has done, is doing and will continue to do is wrong, it's not just a random person on boards saying it. They have been declared in violation of international law.

If anything I would hope at some stage, America will be forced to bring some pressure on them but I'm not sure when, if ever that will happen. They are the only nation who can truly reign in some of the worst excesses of the Israeli government and until that happens there will be no change in that part of the world.

A Lamb Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Well, the benefit isn't ours. Presumably we care about peace. Peace-building is a topic of which we have a bit of experience, and perhaps we could assist in that in international affairs.

How can yous hope go build peace with people who commit war crimes for political gain



They cram people into smaller and smaller areas,treat em like sh1te and then bomb the fcuk outta em......if they werent backed to hilt by america (another bunch of gowls trading on reputation)...their leaders would be hauled before the hague for what they gor upto lately

irishgrover

Shelby Curved Swimmer wrote:

How can yous hope go build peace with people who commit war crimes for political gain

No being smart but don't we have a lot of experience in this? In terms of peace agreements, GFA etc

irishgrover wrote: »

No being smart but don't we have a lot of experience in this? In terms of peace agreements, GFA etc

The gfa was bourne out of military stalemate on.conditons caused by the confluct (being long term)......if britin was free to commit war crimes on scale isreal deos,with zero rebuke

they would have never agreed to peace.....imagine british war planes circleing the bogside/divis flats/nationlist estates and bombing the fcuk outta em and blaming it on the inhabitants....isreal carryon has no place in the 21st century

guy2231

The Irish are known for being more on the palestinian side than the israeli zionist one.

irishgrover

Shelby Curved Swimmer wrote:

they would have never agreed to peace.....imagine british war planes circleing the bogside/divis flats/nationlist estates and bombing the fcuk outta em and blaming it on the inhabitants....isreal carryon has no place in the 21st century

Sorry, to clarify, I was thinking also in terms of what republican and loyalist terrorists and bringing them to the table...along with both governments etc
Regardless fully agree with regards to Isreal carryon

irishgrover wrote: »

Sorry, to clarify, I was thinking also in terms of what republican and loyalist terrorists and bringing them to the table...along with both governments etc
Regardless fully agree with regards to Isreal carryon

Completly off topic,but loyalists have never fully come tk the table as regards peace (even oppose.likes.of irish language act to this day!),almost nearly zero decommissioning

Just.british withdrew collusion and in vaccum of peace,they withered and died,admittedly with some recent polical influencw.....(as regards violence,they havnt taken out a single dissident republican in last 20 plus years.....draw.from this.your own.conclusion)

[Deleted User]

guy2231 wrote: »

The Irish are known for being more on the palestinian side than the israeli zionist one.

Yeah, that's probably not particularly helpful, which is what I'm trying (probably badly) to convey.

Throw a coin into a United Nations Assembly and you'll hit on a representative who is somewhat sympathetic to Palestine, they are ten-a-penny. Support for Palestine is a de facto antagonism towards Israel, and history proves that this support is either unproductive, or downright destructive to peace in Israel and Palestine. Israel views it as antagonism, and digs in its heels.

Governments, which are comprised of mere human beings, react more favourably to positive enouragement than to calumny and criticism.

I am saying we have, first of all, in this country, been one of the few Europeans without an historical grudge against jews. Secondly, in fact, we can sympathise more than most with an historical nation's claim to self-determination -- that's all zionism is. Thirdly, we have experience of a sectarian peace process.

Gathering all these factors together, Ireland can be of some productive use in encouraging Israel in building a sustainable peace process. In fact, I think we have an obligation to so do.

sydthebeat

I think Irish people would identify more readily with a people who's land were robbed and colonised by an invading force... As we have some historical experience in that matter

Mimon

A Lamb Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Yeah, that's probably not particularly helpful, which is what I'm trying (probably badly) to convey.

Throw a coin into a United Nations Assembly and you'll hit on a representative who is somewhat sympathetic to Palestine, they are ten-a-penny. Support for Palestine is a de facto antagonism towards Israel, and history proves that this support is either unproductive, or downright destructive to peace in Israel and Palestine. Israel views it as antagonism, and digs in its heels.

Governments, which are comprised of mere human beings, react more favourably to positive enouragement than to calumny and criticism.

I am saying we have, first of all, in this country, been one of the few Europeans without an historical grudge against jews. Secondly, in fact, we can sympathise more than most with an historical nation's claim to self-determination -- that's all zionism is. Thirdly, we have experience of a sectarian peace process.

Gathering all these factors together, Ireland can be of some productive use in encouraging Israel in building a sustainable peace process. In fact, I think we have an obligation to so do.

Yeh the conniving and murdering Netenyahu is going to change anything because an Island off the coast of Europe has asked him nicely and encouraged him to do so.:rolleyes:

sheesh

How should we support Israel

[Deleted User]

Mimon wrote: »

Yeh the conniving and murdering Netenyahu is going to change anything because an Island off the coast of Europe has asked him nicely and encouraged him to do so.:rolleyes:

No. I'm not saying that Ireland can solve the conflict, that is indeed a laughable suggestion.

I'm merely observing the facts. We have an unusual history as Europeans when it comes to jewish people, we have certain other experiences that most developed countries have not.

We should use this background to defend Israel, and its right to exist next-door to some pretty ridiculous tyrants; we know a thing or two about that. Our exhortations will be better-received as an ally, than as some droning critic.

[Deleted User]

sheesh wrote: »

How should we support Israel

Oh, I'm just talking about diplomatic support at EU level. We need to stop making antagonistic statements condemning Israel, for a start.

Make statements of support instead, heap diplomatic praise on them whenever they do something vaguely positive. Sing their praises for helping to vaccinate Palestinians.

When I was small and attending some summer camp, an instructor gave two groups of kids a challenge: one person had to open a locked gate, while blindfolded.

The first group had to guide the blindfolded kid with negative guidance "no! not there! you've gone too far! you're way off!" etc. I don't think they ever managed to open the gate.

The second group was tasked with issuing positive encouragement "you're on the right track now! go a bit further! come back! nearly there" etc.

It doesn't take a genius to figure-out which approach is more helpful. Foreign policy, in the words of Robert Frost, is "just another kind of children's game".

Befriend them, as we have traditionally done, and appeal to their better nature.

johnnyskeleton

A Lamb Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Support for Palestine is a de facto antagonism towards Israel, and history proves that this support is either unproductive, or downright destructive to peace in Israel and Palestine. Israel views it as antagonism, and digs in its heels.

If Israels stated position is that support for Palestine or the UN sanctioned two state solution offends them, then that is their problem, not ours.

I think we should have and maintain strong diplomatic relationships with all countries. However, I dont think we should sacrifice support for the UN to spare the feelings of one country.

The message should be clear - in condemning Israels military actions, we are not condeming the State of Israel itself. Its like when you have a pal who misbehaves and you have a quiet word with them. Either they look at their owm behaviour or they get annoyed with you for pointing it out, but either way that is what you have to do.

[Deleted User]

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

If Israels stated position is that support for Palestine or the UN sanctioned two state solution offends them, then that is their problem, not ours.

I think we should have and maintain strong diplomatic relationships with all countries. However, I dont think we should sacrifice support for the UN to spare the feelings of one country.

Your post seems justify heaping opprobrium on Israel, wagging a finger at them, and the implication is that we don't care about the consequence, so long as we get across our point.

Seems like a failure of diplomacy, tbh. I would rather proactively engage with Israel as an ally, shower them with praise at the quickest opportunity, and be their ally in the EU whenever reasonable. Be the Good Cop. Bring them under the umbrella of civilised nations, instead of condemning them, even if condemnation makes us feel morally superior.

Our current approach (in Europe, but Ireland too) achieves nothing. Our inertia is borderline criminal.

Brussels Sprout

A Lamb Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Oh, I'm just talking about diplomatic support at EU level. We need to stop making antagonistic statements condemning Israel, for a start.

Make statements of support instead, heap diplomatic praise on them whenever they do something vaguely positive. Sing their praises for helping to vaccinate Palestinians.

....

Befriend them, as we have traditionally done, and appeal to their better nature.

I'm sorry but this is all just hopelessly naive.

Israel has been cynically eating away at the West Bank through land theft, evictions and settlement construction for decades. They do this because they can get away with it. They can get away with it for many different reasons:

• The fig-leaf of working toward a 2-state solution has allowed Benjamin Netanyahu to give that as the stock diplomatic answer while, in reality, doing everything in his power to ensure that it never actually happens
• The Palestinians have no power to stop them. Neither physical power nor political power.
• USA has Israel's back on a political and diplomatic level
• An electorate that has lurched more and more to the right (partly as a result of waves of new hard-line immigrants from Russia, USA, Australia and various European countries).
• The Arab world is hopelessly fractured, typically with autocratic leaders who care more about staying in power than uniting to help the Palestinians
• Other Western countries who are extremely reluctant to say anything critical of Israel for fear of being portrayed as anti-semitic

Patting the Zionists on the back and "appealing to their better nature" is going to do precisely nothing apart from encouraging them to steal more of Palestine faster.

riffmongous

A Lamb Named Miltiades! wrote: »

No. I'm not saying that Ireland can solve the conflict, that is indeed a laughable suggestion.

I'm merely observing the facts. We have an unusual history as Europeans when it comes to jewish people, we have certain other experiences that most developed countries have not.

We should use this background to defend Israel, and its right to exist next-door to some pretty ridiculous tyrants; we know a thing or two about that. Our exhortations will be better-received as an ally, than as some droning critic.

Who exactly are these tyrants nowadays?

I actually think it's the opposite, our relatively unusual history as regards anti semitism and our own colonial past means we are one of the few countries in a position to rightly criticise Israel when it goes too far, and that is something we should defend.

A Lamb Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Your post seems justify heaping opprobrium on Israel, wagging a finger at them, and the implication is that we don't care about the consequence, so long as we get across our point.

Seems like a failure of diplomacy, tbh. I would rather proactively engage with Israel as an ally, shower them with praise at the quickest opportunity, and be their ally in the EU whenever reasonable. Be the Good Cop. Bring them under the umbrella of civilised nations, instead of condemning them, even if condemnation makes us feel morally superior.

Our current approach (in Europe, but Ireland too) achieves nothing. Our inertia is borderline criminal.

surely if we were honest as regards ending inertia as regards the situation.....we would push for sanctions at eu level.

Russia received sanctions for shooting down that plane and killing similar number of innocent civilains and annexing land in ukraine.....


what is fundamentally different in bombing flat complexs killing civilains and annexing more of palestineian land,to not merit santions??


Hopefully this new government will.bring a new dawn for em,some members have been critical of the attacks

guy2231

Shelby Curved Swimmer wrote: »

surely if we were honest as regards ending inertia as regards the situation.....we would push for sanctions at eu level.

Russia received sanctions for shooting down that plane and killing similar number of innocent civilains and annexing land in ukraine.....


what is fundamentally different in bombing flat complexs killing civilains and annexing more of palestineian land,to not merit santions??


Hopefully this new government will.bring a new dawn for em,some members have been critical of the attacks

Difference is Russia is an enemy of the west while Israel is a friend that's why sanctions are brought against Russia anytime they do something wrong while Israel can get away with anything.

[Deleted User]

riffmongous wrote: »

Who exactly are these tyrants nowadays?

Hamas are tyrants. The President of Syria is a tyrant. The King of Saudi Arabia is a tyrant, so is the President of the Islamic Republic of Iran -- or, in comination with his Ayatollah; so is the Prince-president of the Emirates. El-Sisi, in Egypt is a tyrant. The Emirs and Prime Ministers of Kuwait, Bahrain and Oman are not tyrants, but they will be also, when their resources dry. The Arab League is a forum for tyrants.

That whole region is spilling-over with despotism.

I don't find it objectionable that we should ally ourselves with the one small country that is genuinely able to proclaim itself a democracy. We should influence EU friendship and economic power to encourage Israel in a positive way.

Sanctions don't work, condemnation does not work, clearly. For how long will we continue these failed policies?

Entice the Israelis, induce co-operation with economic bribes, if needs be. The single functional democracy in the middle-east should be our friend. Ireland has a unique role to play in befriending a beleaguered nationality, besieged by historical tyranny.

No serious attempt has been made to build this friendship, I think that's pretty scandalous.

[Deleted User]

A Lamb Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Hamas are tyrants. The President of Syria is a tyrant. The King of Saudi Arabia is a tyrant, so is the President of the Islamic Republic of Iran -- or, in comination with his Ayatollah; so is the Prince-president of the Emirates. El-Sisi, in Egypt is a tyrant. The Emirs and Prime Ministers of Kuwait, Bahrain and Oman are not tyrants, but they will be also, when their resources dry. The Arab League is a forum for tyrants.

That whole region is spilling-over with despotism.

I don't find it objectionable that we should ally ourselves with the one small country that is genuinely able to proclaim itself a democracy. We should influence EU friendship and economic power to encourage Israel in a positive way.

That one democracy is in alliance with some of those despots, as is the US.

Sanctions don't work, condemnation does not work, clearly. For how long will we continue these failed policies?

Sanctions haven’t really been fully applied to Israel. It may not be possible.

Entice the Israelis, induce co-operation with economic bribes, if needs be. The single functional democracy in the middle-east should be our friend. Ireland has a unique role to play in befriending a beleaguered nationality, besieged by historical tyranny.

Economic bribes? Why is that different from sanctions? Why would it work? What leverage can we apply. Israel isn’t under siege, it’s backed by the US and has its own formidable army.

The Palestinians are under siege.

No serious attempt has been made to build this friendship, I think that's pretty scandalous.

We were friendly enough through history but the rise of extreme Zionism ended that, and their actions in Lebanon in the 80s.

osarusan

A Lamb Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Ireland has a unique role to play in befriending a beleaguered nationality, besieged by historical tyranny.

It really doesn't.


Israel couldn't care less about any similarities (real or imaginary) between them and Ireland.


They have the USA, and that's all they need. They are already doing whatever they want without hindrance. The impact of any Irish change in policy to become an ally, or defender, would be pretty much non-existent.

And whatever about Ireland choosing to adopt such a policy, the idea that we have a 'moral obligation' to do so is nonsense.

sheesh

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

No. I'm not saying that Ireland can solve the conflict, that is indeed a laughable suggestion.

I'm merely observing the facts. We have an unusual history as Europeans when it comes to jewish people, we have certain other experiences that most developed countries have not.

We should use this background to defend Israel, and its right to exist next-door to some pretty ridiculous tyrants; we know a thing or two about that. Our exhortations will be better-received as an ally, than as some droning critic.

We are allies we are both in the US sphere of influence we have no argument with them historically we trade with them and we have diplomatic relations established with them. that does not mean we should stay silent if we disagree with their actions this is part and parcel of being part of the international community in the western world.

Irlandese

"The single functional democracy in the middle-east should be our friend."

I see someone is taking a long tea-break at the Israeli Embassy ! You are wasting your time. Wrong country, wrong history, wrong values. Just a few reminders; We do not like apartheid states that treat the original occupiers of that land as fourth-class citizens with few if any rights. We do not like thuggish criminals who use nuclear weapons as a daily threat to their neighbours. We do not appreciate a state built on a racist, militarist framework, intent on committing genocide against the Palestinian people. We remember the Irish soldiers killed in UN Peace-keeping missions in Lebanon by Israeli thugs and their Druse Militia partners. We remember the more than three thousand innocent elderly men and women and small children massacred by being forced into houses with hand grenades then thrown in the door and the walls and roofs then being bull-dozed by Druze Militia under Israeli orders, in the refugee camps of Sabra and Shattila, while the world watched and was silent. We see and feel the daily holocaust against the poor children of Palestine, in the largest concentration camp in history, the Gaza Strip. We watch, horrified, as children with rocks in hand are gunned down by helicopter gunships and modern rockets. We cry as we see the old and very young being thrown out of their homes by bestial illegal Zionist settlers, aided and abbetted by the Israeli army, using tanks and helicopters and we remember our own history at the hands of the British. We cry with the mothers and fathers of the dispossessed and hopeless who see their children abused and murdered by Zionist thugs, protected, financed, armed and fed by America and her allies, while the cries and blood of the innocents call out to the world for justice.

No, friend, you are stirring up the wrong pot, in the wrong country................

paul71

What a strange thread!