Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie

Rights that a tenant has if they have rented property for more than 10 years

Options
  • 02-06-2021 3:53pm
    #1
    dcasey73
    Registered Users Posts: 18 ✭


    Hi all,

    So I've rented out an apartment to someone for more than 10 years who I believe is responsible for significant damage caused to the property over the last year.

    I'm wondering if I fix the damage, send a bill to the tenant and discover that the tenant wont pay what can I legally do? I've read that I can give them a 30 days "Notice with cause" to terminate the tenancy.

    However I've also read on Citizen's Information that I need to give the tenant 224 days notice before I can kick them out. This is because they've been living in the accommodation for more than 10 years.

    I'm confused at what I'm legally able to do in order for them to pay for the damage caused. Can I bring them to the small claims court or something along those lines?

    Thanks


«1

Comments

  • Options
    #2
    D3V!L
    Registered Users Posts: 2,923 ✭✭✭D3V!L


    What is the significant damage?


  • Options
    #3
    dcasey73
    Registered Users Posts: 18 ✭dcasey73


    D3V!L wrote: »
    What is the significant damage?
    I'd rather not specify but it has to do with damage to the drywall among other things that I'm convinced has to do with negligence. The drywall will probably need replacing etc.


  • Options
    #4
    GerardKeating
    Registered Users Posts: 7,528 ✭✭✭GerardKeating


    dcasey73 wrote: »
    convinced has to do with negligence. The drywall will probably need replacing etc.

    What kind of Negligence, banging into the walls?


  • Options
    #5
    dcasey73
    Registered Users Posts: 18 ✭dcasey73


    GerardKeating wrote: »
    What kind of Negligence, banging into the walls?
    Again, I'd rather not specify but I'm not sure whether their negligence can be proved that's the thing. Have I no grounds to get them to pay for the damage unless I have explicit proof?


  • Options
    #6
    Kimbot
    Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 18,436 Mod ✭✭✭✭Kimbot


    dcasey73 wrote: »
    Again, I'd rather not specify but I'm not sure whether their negligence can be proved that's the thing. Have I no grounds to get them to pay for the damage unless I have explicit proof?

    Without specifying nobody can really assist you.

    It all depends on what the damage is etc and how you would go about the next steps so give us something to go on so we can help you out.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #7
    3DataModem
    Registered Users Posts: 3,945 ✭✭✭3DataModem


    After 10 years a landlord has to have a high tolerance for wear and tear.

    If you think they have left the slabs rot away due to damp etc, then they are not fulfilling their duties as a tenant and you can - in theory - give them summary notice.

    HOWEVER they can challenge this; they are the ones living there after all and if they are OK with it, you don't really have cause for complaint until they move out, unless they are allowing the damage to seriously affect the property (e.g. they are obliged to get a leak fixed, and not leave it destroy the place).

    It is a tough situation. Have you done an official inspection?


  • Options
    #8
    dcasey73
    Registered Users Posts: 18 ✭dcasey73


    Kimbot wrote: »
    Without specifying nobody can really assist you.

    It all depends on what the damage is etc and how you would go about the next steps so give us something to go on so we can help you out.
    Okay, so the tenant consistently let damp into the room via the windows and not informing me of a broken vent which has caused the drywall nearby to rot significantly. There's windows upstairs and downstairs and they let the damp in almost as if they had left the windows open when it was raining. The rot has spread to the point of needing to get the drywall repaired and possibly having to fix structural issues with the framing that surrounds the windows.

    I can't do a full inspection until after I get my second dose of the vaccine within the next month. The couple that's living there sent me photos and have claimed to only notice it until now.


  • Options
    #9
    Kimbot
    Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 18,436 Mod ✭✭✭✭Kimbot


    When did you last inspect the property?
    Did they report the damp to you? If so when was it first reported etc?


  • Options
    #10
    dcasey73
    Registered Users Posts: 18 ✭dcasey73


    Kimbot wrote: »
    When did you last inspect the property?
    Did they report the damp to you? If so when was it first reported etc?
    They reported it to me last week but they claim they only noticed it now because they've been so busy with work.

    I haven't inspected the property in about 3 years. Mostly because I had got on well with the tenant's up to this point.


  • Options
    #11
    kirving
    Registered Users Posts: 5,890 ✭✭✭kirving


    What annual maintenance do you have carried out on the property?


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #12
    dcasey73
    Registered Users Posts: 18 ✭dcasey73


    kirving wrote: »
    What annual maintenance do you have carried out on the property?
    To be honest there were no problems in the earlier years of the tenancy so I never really had to carry out any maintenance. I inspected it about three years ago and everything seemed okay.


  • Options
    #13
    jimmycrackcorm
    Registered Users Posts: 14,329 ✭✭✭✭jimmycrackcorm


    I doubt you'll get very far claiming they deliberately caused this, it would be akin to flood damage from accidentally leaving a tap running.
    Who has house insurance and is this covered?
    Have you broached the subject with the tenants that you consider it their fault?
    You'd really need a professional to evaluate the damage. It might not be that significant and covered by their deposit.

    You have received 10 years' worth of rent from your tenants that haven't given you much of a headache, so I suggest you might want to consider this as part and parcel of property maintenance.


  • Options
    #14
    dcasey73
    Registered Users Posts: 18 ✭dcasey73


    jimmycrackcorm wrote: »
    I doubt you'll get very far claiming they deliberately caused this, it would be akin to flood damage from accidentally leaving a tap running.
    Who has house insurance and is this covered?
    Have you broached the subject with the tenants that you consider it their fault?
    You'd really need a professional to evaluate the damage. It might not be that significant and covered by their deposit.

    You have received 10 years' worth of rent from your tenants that haven't given you much of a headache, so I suggest you might want to consider this as part and parcel of property maintenance.
    I have made it very clear to them that I'm quite angry about it and that I think they are being dishonest. I'm not sure whether my insurance will cover it because of the circumstances.

    But it's so obvious that they let this thing go. There's no way they could have discovered it all of a sudden.


  • Options
    #15
    con747
    Registered Users Posts: 5,796 ✭✭✭con747


    In all fairness you did no inspections in 3 years and if the tenant did not bother you in 10 years over any issues and either took care of them or lived with them you saved a bit of money there unless they were major issues damaging the property. If it's just drywall damage and cosmetics it's not going to cost a fortune to fix it. Until you get an estimate you won't know though.

    Don't expect anything from life, just be grateful to be alive.



  • Options
    #16
    dcasey73
    Registered Users Posts: 18 ✭dcasey73


    con747 wrote: »
    In all fairness you did no inspections in 3 years and if the tenant did not bother you in 10 years over any issues and either took care of them or lived with them you saved a bit of money there unless they were major issues damaging the property. If it's just drywall damage and cosmetics it's not going to cost a fortune to fix it. Until you get an estimate you won't know though.
    Well that's the thing. I think the timber framing could be significantly rotted. Could I get them to pay for this by threatening to raise the rent in order to cover the costs?


  • Options
    #17
    coylemj
    Registered Users Posts: 25,334 ✭✭✭✭coylemj


    dcasey73 wrote: »
    I have made it very clear to them that I'm quite angry about it and that I think they are being dishonest. I'm not sure whether my insurance will cover it because of the circumstances.

    But it's so obvious that they let this thing go. There's no way they could have discovered it all of a sudden.

    The last part is the killer for insurance. Anything that happens over time like a leak caused by the gradual deterioration of a shower seal or damage caused by damp is not covered in a domestic policy.

    My (FBD) house policy has the following exclusion....

    Any loss or damage arising from wear, tear, rust or corrosion, gradual loss in value or anything happening gradually, including damage caused by gradual water damage from faulty seals or grouting, the upkeep costs or normal decoration, mildew, rising damp, dry or wet rot, moth, vermin, insects, atmospheric or weather conditions.


  • Options
    #18
    dcasey73
    Registered Users Posts: 18 ✭dcasey73


    con747 wrote: »
    In all fairness you did no inspections in 3 years and if the tenant did not bother you in 10 years over any issues and either took care of them or lived with them you saved a bit of money there unless they were major issues damaging the property. If it's just drywall damage and cosmetics it's not going to cost a fortune to fix it. Until you get an estimate you won't know though.
    Well that's the thing. I believe that there could probably be structural damage caused also.

    Could I threaten them with raising the rent in order to cover the costs? In other words "if you don't pay I will have to raise the rent significantly".


  • Options
    #19
    dcasey73
    Registered Users Posts: 18 ✭dcasey73


    coylemj wrote: »
    The last part is the killer for insurance. Anything that happens over time like a leak caused by the gradual deterioration of a shower seal or damage caused by damp is not covered in a domestic policy.

    My (FBD) house policy has the following exclusion....

    Any loss or damage arising from wear, tear, rust or corrosion, gradual loss in value or anything happening gradually, including damage caused by gradual water damage from faulty seals or grouting, the upkeep costs or normal decoration, mildew, rising damp, dry or wet rot, moth, vermin, insects, atmospheric or weather conditions.
    But how can insurance know that it was a gradual thing? How do they prove that it was gradual?


  • Options
    #20
    coylemj
    Registered Users Posts: 25,334 ✭✭✭✭coylemj


    dcasey73 wrote: »
    But how can insurance know that it was a gradual thing? How do they prove that it was gradual?

    By your own words....
    dcasey73 wrote: »
    But it's so obvious that they let this thing go. There's no way they could have discovered it all of a sudden.

    Good luck trying to convince an insurance assessor that damage caused by damp happened as a result of an insurable 'event'.


  • Options
    #21
    Thoie
    Registered Users Posts: 6,344 ✭✭✭Thoie


    dcasey73 wrote: »
    But how can insurance know that it was a gradual thing? How do they prove that it was gradual?

    Insurance companies would often send an assessor (maybe in this case an engineer) to see what the damage is.

    Timber frames don't dissolve instantly on contact with water, they'd know whether it was something going on for a while, vs a one off flood.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #22
    Metroid diorteM
    Registered Users Posts: 303 ✭✭Metroid diorteM


    coylemj wrote: »
    By your own words....



    Good luck trying to convince an insurance assessor that damage caused by damp happened as a result of an insurable 'event'.

    Insurance is the biggest scam


  • Options
    #23
    dcasey73
    Registered Users Posts: 18 ✭dcasey73


    Thoie wrote: »
    Insurance companies would often send an assessor (maybe in this case an engineer) to see what the damage is.

    Timber frames don't dissolve instantly on contact with water, they'd know whether it was something going on for a while, vs a one off flood.
    What would their definition of a "while" be? Couldn't the tenants claim that they didn't notice what was happening until very recently when it got very bad? So it was a hidden problem until very recently?

    Would insurers consider that to be a poor excuse? It's plausible if the tenant's are away a lot...


  • Options
    #24
    C14N
    Registered Users Posts: 2,656 ✭✭✭C14N


    dcasey73 wrote: »
    What would their definition of a "while" be? Couldn't the tenants claim that they didn't notice what was happening until very recently when it got very bad? So it was a hidden problem until very recently?

    Would insurers consider that to be a poor excuse? It's plausible if the tenant's are away a lot...

    I think the main point is that something sudden would have had to happen, not that it was suddenly noticable. A flood, a fire, a burglary, etc. are sudden events that insurance covers. If somehow there was an event that caused it to suddenly go from not being rotten to rotten in a matter of days, it might be covered, but it sounds implausible.


  • Options
    #25
    dcasey73
    Registered Users Posts: 18 ✭dcasey73


    C14N wrote: »
    I think the main point is that something sudden would have had to happen, not that it was suddenly noticable. A flood, a fire, a burglary, etc. are sudden events that insurance covers. If somehow there was an event that caused it to suddenly go from not being rotten to rotten in a matter of days, it might be covered, but it sounds implausible.
    This makes me think that wet and dry rot would never be covered by insurance in any case because it takes a significant amount of time for those kinds of things to develop in wood in the first place? Am I correct in thinking this?

    So even if I had a highly respectable tenant who was extremely honest and they discovered rot somewhere in the accommodation and reported it immediately it probably wouldn't be covered in that case also?


  • Options
    #26
    coylemj
    Registered Users Posts: 25,334 ✭✭✭✭coylemj


    dcasey73 wrote: »
    This makes me think that wet and dry rot would never be covered by insurance in any case because it takes a significant amount of time for those kinds of things to develop in wood in the first place? Am I correct in thinking this?

    Yes
    dcasey73 wrote: »
    So even if I had a highly respectable tenant who was extremely honest and they discovered rot somewhere in the accommodation and reported it immediately it probably wouldn't be covered in that case also?

    Correct.


  • Options
    #27
    Mrs OBumble
    Registered Users Posts: 25,685 ✭✭✭✭Mrs OBumble


    You are claiming that a tenant caused damp by opening the windows? Really?

    The vast majority if damp is caused by windows not being opened.

    I really think you're chancing your arm.


  • Options
    #28
    kirving
    Registered Users Posts: 5,890 ✭✭✭kirving


    dcasey73 wrote: »
    To be honest there were no problems in the earlier years of the tenancy so I never really had to carry out any maintenance. I inspected it about three years ago and everything seemed okay.

    No preventative maintenance done in 10 years on the property? If so, that's a big big miss, and leads directly to this like this.

    Damp and mould can happen in days and weeks, it not necessarily months or years either.

    If windows are required to be left open to prevent damp, then there is something bigger wrong (more than just a broken vent IMO). Could be rising damp, a small leak if roof, window seals, heating issue, etc.


  • Options
    #29
    3DataModem
    Registered Users Posts: 3,945 ✭✭✭3DataModem


    dcasey73 wrote: »

    Could I threaten them with raising the rent in order to cover the costs? In other words "if you don't pay I will have to raise the rent significantly".

    OMG no do not do this.


  • Options
    #30
    3DataModem
    Registered Users Posts: 3,945 ✭✭✭3DataModem


    con747 wrote: »
    In all fairness you did no inspections in 3 years

    Your landlords insurance will require periodic inspections no doubt.

    After 10 years a few months rent worth of repairs that are non-malicious would be fine.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #31
    Darc19
    Registered Users Posts: 3,817 ✭✭✭Darc19


    dcasey73 wrote: »
    I have made it very clear to them that I'm quite angry about it and that I think they are being dishonest. I'm not sure whether my insurance will cover it because of the circumstances.

    But it's so obvious that they let this thing go. There's no way they could have discovered it all of a sudden.
    I think you should direct that anger at yourself.

    No matter how well you get on with a tenant, you need to do an annual inspection. It will flag issues before they become major issues.

    This year has been particularly damp too with barely 3 days without rain.

    If this is the only issue, then I'd be apologising to the tenant, but at the same time educate him/her that to keep an eye open for such matters.

    Then get a proper inspection done, and do further inspections yourself every twelve months.


Advertisement