Driving with blue lights

Bigoldhouse

Just wondering what blue lights and sirens on a vehicle actually allows them to do.
I've had a few interactions with mountain rescue vans driving way over the speed limit and also dangerously. On two occasions I've had to pull in as they've overtaken a car and are on my side of the road heading towards me. Are they trained in the same way a guard is that allows them to drive like that. I get it's important they get there as quick as they can, but no point in causing another accident on the way. I live near a 50kph stretch with pedestrians walking on side of the road and they come down at it 80-100.

Well the lights themselves don't do anything other than warn other users.

If you are an authorized driver in one of the exempted agencies, you can break the law more or less, in the execution of your duty. Assume limits still apply such exercise caution, driving just be reasonable to the situation and so on

GoProGaming

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

Well the lights themselves don't do anything other than warn other users.

If you are an authorized driver in one of the exempted agencies, you can break the law more or less, in the execution of your duty. Assume limits still apply such exercise caution, driving just be reasonable to the situation and so on

Not actually allowed to break the law. The L&S enable you to claim an exemption of some sections of the road traffic act.
If you crash or cause an accident while claiming these exemptions it lands squarely with the driver and their own licence.

Some exemptions they are allowed yo claim would be speed, crossing a line, going through a red light that sort of thing. Not to drive like a maniac which as the OP described can make the situation far worse in some cases. Interestingly its only recently that the RSA launched the Emergency Service Driving Standard (3 levels from basic to response driving) in 2 of the 3 principal response agencies all driving training was in house and eh of varying levels of quality.

Bigoldhouse

GoProGaming wrote: »

Not actually allowed to break the law. The L&S enable you to claim an exemption of some sections of the road traffic act.
If you crash or cause an accident while claiming these exemptions it lands squarely with the driver and their own licence.

Some exemptions they are allowed yo claim would be speed, crossing a line, going through a red light that sort of thing. Not to drive like a maniac which as the OP described can make the situation far worse in some cases. Interestingly its only recently that the RSA launched the Emergency Service Driving Standard (3 levels from basic to response driving) in 2 of the 3 principal response agencies all driving training was in house and eh of varying levels of quality.

Is the vehicle exempt or the driver? Just trying to work out if the people driving like this are trained in any way, or it just a case of whoever is in the drivers seat gets to be exempt. I want to bring it up with them but know where I stand first.

GoProGaming

GoProGaming wrote: »

Not actually allowed to break the law. The L&S enable you to claim an exemption of some sections of the road traffic act.
If you crash or cause an accident while claiming these exemptions it lands squarely with the driver and their own licence.

Some exemptions they are allowed yo claim would be speed, crossing a line, going through a red light that sort of thing. Not to drive like a maniac which as the OP described can make the situation far worse in some cases. Interestingly its only recently that the RSA launched the Emergency Service Driving Standard (3 levels from basic to response driving) in 2 of the 3 principal response agencies all driving training was in house and eh of varying levels of quality.

Read my comment again.

Lenar3556

Bigoldhouse wrote: »

Is the vehicle exempt or the driver? Just trying to work out if the people driving like this are trained in any way, or it just a case of whoever is in the drivers seat gets to be exempt. I want to bring it up with them but know where I stand first.

Exemptions from many aspects of the road traffic acts apply to particular categories of drivers where they are acting in the performance their duty. Gardai, Ambulance Services, and Fire Brigades would be the typical three. Coast Guard and Mountain Rescue services? I didn’t think exemptions applied to these services but I’m open to correction.

As has been highlighted the presence of particular lights, sirens or other markings on a vehicle have no statutory bearing on the aforementioned exemptions. A member of An Garda Siochana for example is exempt when driving any car in the course of his/her duty, and indeed any other person where they are driving under the direction of a member of the Garda.

The level of driver training, assessment and CPD will vary greatly across and within the services and organisations.

Regardless of who is behind the wheel of any vehicle, endangerment of other road users should be reported to An Garda Siochana.

Maxface

https://www.rsa.ie/en/RSA/Professional-Drivers/ESDS/

That link gives a good overall understanding of the situation. The three main agencies are exempted under 'The Road Traffic Act 2010'. Mountain rescue do not fall under this act and should not be driving with lights and sirens. Recently there was some uproar within the coastguard when their members were told they cannot use them. Interestingly, the standard mentioned is not statutory so if I joined the ambulance service tomorrow for example, I could legally drive with lights and sirens.

Bigoldhouse

thanks for all the replies.

Mimon

Was a cheeky fecker with flashing yellows on his van and was trying to bully his way through the overtaking lane. (The lane was full as up ahead there was a car slowly overtaking a lorry and a lot of people were getting held up, not just him).

A couple of people fell for it.

He came up behind me and I put the hazards on to tell him to feck off.

mr cowen

as mentioned under the ESDS training only the previously mentioned 3 services are entitled to drive "on their own" under blue light with the exemption allowed under the 2010 act,

but other services can drive in escort with the gardai, but if they choose to drive without an escort, and break a red light, cross the white line, speed etc. they can be prosecuted for this action, along with a prosecution if the cause an accident.

Paulzx

mr cowen wrote: »

and break a red light, cross the white line, speed etc. they can be prosecuted for this action, along with a prosecution if the cause an accident.

To be fair the 3 exempted services can also be prosecuted. While there is an exemption for red lights, bus lanes etc. there is no exemption for driving under the influence or dangerous driving. If a serious crash is caused by a fire engine, ambulance or garda vehicle breaking a red light and they are deemed to have endangered other road users they can be prosecuted.

They will not be sanctioned for breaking the red light but can be prosecuted for dangerous driving.

CharlieCroker

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2010/act/25/section/87/enacted/en/html

mr cowen

ESDS quote: Some emergency services drivers are exempt from general Road Traffic Legislation in the performance of their duties but only if their actions don’t endanger the safety of other road users. The term ‘in the performance of the duties of that member’ covers a range of day-to-day emergency service activities. If exemptions to the road traffic legislation are used, it must be in accordance with Section 87 of the Road Traffic Act 2010.

Emergency services drivers must always abide by Road Traffic Legislation including the following:

Driving under the influence of an intoxicant
Driving without reasonable consideration
Driving without due care and attention
Dangerous driving
Emergency services drivers can be investigated and prosecuted if their driving is deemed to be dangerous. If they are convicted, any endorsements are recorded on their drivers licence.


i looked at the list of services that signed up to esds..... mountain rescue arent on the list...

Who is involved with ESDS?
A working panel was set up with members drawn from:

The RSA (Chair)
Civil Defence
The Irish Coast Guard
The Defence Forces
An Garda Síochána
Health Service Executive National Ambulance Service
The Pre-Hospital Emergency Care Council
The Chief Fire Officer’s Association
The Irish Prison Service
National Directorate for Fire and Emergency Management

im not sure if GSOC is covered under an garda siochana umbrella

mr cowen

mind you... hse are on the list but dont participate... they do their own gig

California Dreamer

I have witnessed the Wicklow Mountain rescue gang on the roads a couple of times on blues. The standard of their driving leaves a lot to be desired. Mind you, the strobes in the headlights looks really great.

Bigoldhouse

California Dreamer wrote: »

I have witnessed the Wicklow Mountain rescue gang on the roads a couple of times on blues. The standard of their driving leaves a lot to be desired. Mind you, the strobes in the headlights looks really great.

They're the reason I asked.

knucklehead6

Threads like this really annoy me.

Its quite simple. If you see Blues and Twos get the FCK out of the way, because you can assume that someone is having a MUCH worse day than you.

Nope, instead we have white fkn knights coming along giving it all "Oh, I had to pull in a bit to let the mountain rescue people past and they were driving FAR too fast."

It'd be interesting to see how fast they actually were going cos i can guarantee you that civilians such as you and me are absolute crap at guesstimating speeds of approaching vehicles, especially when we're in our own car.

Bigoldhouse

knucklehead6 wrote: »

Threads like this really annoy me.

Its quite simple. If you see Blues and Twos get the FCK out of the way, because you can assume that someone is having a MUCH worse day than you.

Nope, instead we have white fkn knights coming along giving it all "Oh, I had to pull in a bit to let the mountain rescue people past and they were driving FAR too fast."

It'd be interesting to see how fast they actually were going cos i can guarantee you that civilians such as you and me are absolute crap at guesstimating speeds of approaching vehicles, especially when we're in our own car.

Easily annoyed.

You're right, they should be able to drive how they want and as fast as they want once the lights and sirens are on.

Victor

CharlieCroker wrote: »

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2010/act/25/section/87/enacted/en/html

While the reference is correct, that section was replaced. http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2014/act/3/section/23/enacted/en/html#sec23

Amendment of section 87 of Act of 2010 — exemptions for emergency vehicles

23. Section 87 of the Act of 2010 is amended by substituting for subsection (1) the following:

“(1) Requirements under the Road Traffic Acts 1961 to 2010 relating to vehicles and requirements, restrictions and prohibitions relating to the driving and use of vehicles, other than those provided under sections 49, 50, 51A, 52 and 53 of the Principal Act, sections 12, 13 and 15 of the Act of 1994 and sections 4, 5, 11, 12 and 14 of this Act, do not apply to—

(a) the driving or use by a member of the Garda Síochána, an ambulance service (provided by a pre-hospital emergency care service provider recognised by the Pre-Hospital Emergency Care Council established by the Pre-Hospital Emergency Care Council (Establishment) Order 2000 ( S.I. No. 109 of 2000 )) or a fire brigade of a fire authority (within the meaning of the Fire Services Act 1981 ) of a vehicle in the performance of the duties of that member, or

(b) a person driving or using a vehicle under the direction of a member of the Garda Síochána,

where such use does not endanger the safety of road users.”.

The tests are:
* No intoxication.
* No careless or dangerous driving.
* Must be a member of the Garda Síochána, PHCC-recognised ambulance service, council fire brigade or driving under the direction of a member of the Garda Síochána. It is the driver, not the vehicle (so no, you can't joyride an ambulance with impunity).
* Does not endanger the safety of road users.

AndrewJRenko

I've seen Lifeline ambulances under lights and siren a few times in recent months. They don't deal with emergencies, do they?

easygoing1982

https://boards.ie/discussion/comment/117619002#Comment_117619002

They have the HSE contract for transplant transfers.

AndrewJRenko

https://boards.ie/discussion/comment/117619583#Comment_117619583

Thanks, that would be the patients or the organs for transplants?

mr cowen

https://boards.ie/discussion/comment/117619002#Comment_117619002

they are covered under a phecc affiliated ambulance service under the road traffic act

AndrewJRenko

https://boards.ie/discussion/comment/117626508#Comment_117626508

My question wasn't about whether they are covered. My question was about what service they would be doing that would justify emergency action.

mr cowen

sorry you are correct, ...... they do on occasion do critical emergency private transfers, also I suppose a patient could potentially deteriorate during the transfer which might warrant a blue light response.

plus they also do medical cover for events so depending on the immediate severity of the case it might need urgent transport.

The Black Oil

Good recent video here, and test of the brakes (re the bus).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HetC51geZ_c&ab_channel=ChrisMartinEMS

kirving

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117451522#Comment_117451522

Are emergency service personnel specially trained in how to measure speed in some way that mere civilians cannot?

In any case, blue lights is not a licence (pardon the pun) to drive dangerously.

K.Flyer

Not sure about Ireland but in the UK rapid response drivers must do training courses on reading traffic situations while traveling at high speed in emergency blue light runs.

What may seem like dangerous driving to some lay people is very calculated and excellent driving skills to others.

In Ireland and the UK you could find yourself on the wrong side of the law for just having blue beacons attached to your vehicle, nevermind using them to advance through traffic at speed.

easygoing1982

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117619905#Comment_117619905

I'm sure they would transfer patients aswell but anytime I've seen them, they are transporting the retrieval team to the hospital the donor is in and then back to the recipients hospital with the organ

iceage

If the driver of said MR vehicle is not ESDS trained he/she should not be using lights and sirens, end of. The driver of the vehicle is at risk of the full weight of the law as far as dangerous unsafe driving is concerned also as far as I'm aware none of the MR services in the republic are ESDS trained. Their Insurance companies also would throw a **** fit.

GoProGaming

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117802471#Comment_117802471

What about every other driver of a vehicle pre esds that is not esds trained? Aka the majority of drivers in each service.

Sterling Archer

Does a Garda requesting MR or similar fall under (b)

Or does a controller count?

Even if that direction isn't directly from the Garda to the driver

mr cowen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117806392#Comment_117806392

even if a member of a voluntary service is esds trained it doesn't mean they can use blue lights or are EXEMPT from the road traffic act. only the 3 organisations ive outlined earleir are free to drive without garda escort under blue light and audible devices and are exempt from prosecution under the road traffic act in all but 4 circumstances, that means coast guard and mountain rescue aren't permitted to use this exemption

iceage

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117806392#Comment_117806392

I can only speak for the Fire service. Pre ESDS there was a driving standard called EFAD(Emergency fire appliance driving) This was specific to the fire service and in a nutshell was due to the need to drive a vehicle weighing approx 12 ton at speed, with a crew from A to B and arrive safely. I can't speak for the other services but I do know that new Civil Defence vehicles delivered now other than ambulances do not have light bars for this very reason.

GoProGaming

Oh i'm well aware, I just wanted to know where iceage's level was. Was he ok with non esds drivers in the frontline services driving on blues with no formal training or old outdated training?

iceage

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117809923#Comment_117809923

It's a non plus to me and as I mentioned previously I can only speak for my own service, I am ESDS trained to level 3. The RSA implemented the ESDS level 3 to supercede EFAD and provide a recognised level of response driving for all of the blue light services. Each frontline service now either has or should have ESDS or an equivalent to offer to their drivers(HSE I'm led to believe have their own gig but is equal to and as competent as ESDS, I could stand to be corrected on this though)

Personally would I drive a response vehicle under lights and sirens without ESDS? No I wouldn't because if something goes tits up as the driver its my licence on the line and most probably some form of prosecution.

mr cowen

just bare in mind its not the individual that's covered by the exemption of the road traffic act its the organisation, so even if a member of an organisation that isnt covered/exempted by the act that person who chooses to drive still is open to prosecution even if they have an esds course done, I know firemen in dublin who are involved in vol. organisations and are very experienced esds drivers but would not be cover in their roll driving in their voluntary capacity.

so to the original poster.... the driver behavior you witnessed is highly irresponsible by #1 the driver and #2 the organisation who allowed it to happen. but of course nothing will be done or come to light until some poor unfortunate looses their life at the hands of an inexperienced person or an irresponsible organisation that willfully allows this driving to continue. Or until some traffic superintendent decides to take them to task and highlights it.

searescue

Just to clarify, there is no differentiation between a HSE/DFB ambulance and a Red Cross/Civil Defence/SJAI or OMAC ambulance in the statute. I am both a HSE paramedic and a volunteer in the Civil Defence. The same law and exemptions apply. I know Civil Defence and the Order of Malta have internal ESDS instructors now and rollout of training has begun. I'm sure the same applies with IRC & SJAI.

As for mountain rescue, they have their job to do and are a great help.

Some of the best service providers are volunteers. A volunteer should never be assumed to be an amateur 😊