Forced to work from home

Syferus

Stark wrote: »

Before covid there were laws that meant the employer had to ensure an employee had an ergonomic workspace at home before they were allowed WFH on a regular basis. Obviously all that got waived with pandemic emergency but I imagine that duty of care will return once the pandemic is over.

I imagine for young employees living in shared rented accommodation, their at-home workspaces are far from meeting the ergonomic requirements.



I imagine people will largely fall into two camps. Older workers with families living in the commuter belt who will probably appreciate the increased flexibility of WFH when it comes to school/creche runs, not having to commute etc. And the younger workers living in cramped accommodation closer to the city who will want to get out of the house and into an environment that's setup for working and opportunities to socialise.

You’re vastly over-stating the interest young people have in commuting to offices.

floorpie

Syferus wrote: »

You’re vastly over-stating the interest young people have in commuting to offices.

I've seen things like this stated a few times in the thread.

I'll just note that many people don't really know what they want, when you dig into it. Of course if you ask people "do you want a nice long commute every day to work" most people will say no. Public surveys (and ones I'm privy to) show this, and show that most people want to to remain WFH. The same surveys show that most people have difficulties with motivation, concentration, creativity, have worse mental health, more stress, more burnout, compared to pre-WFH.

Random top results from Google:
https://www.siliconrepublic.com/careers/working-from-home-overtime-laya-healthcare-stress-burnout
https://wearewildgoose.com/uk/news/the-2021-working-from-home-survey/
https://www.forbes.com/sites/benjaminlaker/2020/08/24/working-from-home-is-disliked-by-and-bad-for-most-employees/?sh=359cfacf6734

floorpie

floorpie wrote: »

I've seen things like this stated a few times in the thread.

I'll just note that many people don't really know what they want, when you dig into it. Of course if you ask people "do you want a nice long commute every day to work" most people will say no. Public surveys (and ones I'm privy to) show this, and show that most people want to to remain WFH. The same surveys show that most people have difficulties with motivation, concentration, creativity, have worse mental health, more stress, more burnout, compared to pre-WFH.

Random examples:
https://www.siliconrepublic.com/careers/working-from-home-overtime-laya-healthcare-stress-burnout
https://wearewildgoose.com/uk/news/the-2021-working-from-home-survey/
https://www.forbes.com/sites/benjaminlaker/2020/08/24/working-from-home-is-disliked-by-and-bad-for-most-employees/?sh=359cfacf6734

So we come back to ‘flexibility’ then being the key word, which pretty much everyone here is talking about. There are very few, if any, proposing a situation in which there is WFH 100% of the time

floorpie

floorpie wrote: »

I've seen things like this stated a few times in the thread.

I'll just note that many people don't really know what they want, when you dig into it. Of course if you ask people "do you want a nice long commute every day to work" most people will say no. Public surveys (and ones I'm privy to) show this, and show that most people want to to remain WFH. The same surveys show that most people have difficulties with motivation, concentration, creativity, have worse mental health, more stress, more burnout, compared to pre-WFH.

Random top results from Google:
https://www.siliconrepublic.com/careers/working-from-home-overtime-laya-healthcare-stress-burnout
https://wearewildgoose.com/uk/news/the-2021-working-from-home-survey/
https://www.forbes.com/sites/benjaminlaker/2020/08/24/working-from-home-is-disliked-by-and-bad-for-most-employees/?sh=359cfacf6734

Nothing you've stated suggests WFH should not happen

floorpie

Deleted User wrote: »

Nothing you've stated suggests WFH should not happen

? It already is happening.

I don't think that the current "it'll be grand" approach to it will/should continue though.

Bass Reeves

[Deleted User] wrote: »

There's a special place in hell reserved for people who set 9am meetings.

There was a senior manager once in a place I worked used to schedule 7.45 am meeting. This continued for three weeks meeting were once weekly. He was Dutch I think. At the end of the third meeting there was an older mid level manager in his early 50's spoke up. He had been on holidays for the first two. He has listened to the bitching for the 2-3 days he was back.

He said: '' before you schedule your next meeting I am just letting you know if you schedule it for before 9.30 am I will not be here. I just came to this one to let you know that''

The Dutchman's jaw nearly hit the table and he asked did any of the rest of the people have an issue with the early meetings. Literally everyone spoke up at that stage and that ended the 7.45 am meetings. It looked like he be chairing the next early morning meeting to a bunch of chairs.

All you need is one lad with a pair of gahones

Jim2007

floorpie wrote: »

I've seen things like this stated a few times in the thread.

I'll just note that many people don't really know what they want, when you dig into it. Of course if you ask people "do you want a nice long commute every day to work" most people will say no. Public surveys (and ones I'm privy to) show this, and show that most people want to to remain WFH. The same surveys show that most people have difficulties with motivation, concentration, creativity, have worse mental health, more stress, more burnout, compared to pre-WFH.

Random top results from Google:
https://www.siliconrepublic.com/careers/working-from-home-overtime-laya-healthcare-stress-burnout
https://wearewildgoose.com/uk/news/the-2021-working-from-home-survey/
https://www.forbes.com/sites/benjaminlaker/2020/08/24/working-from-home-is-disliked-by-and-bad-for-most-employees/?sh=359cfacf6734

They are not so random, they are all done in countries where people live to work...

Calahonda52

Calahonda52 wrote: »

As an employer, WFH and flexible working are two very different conversations.
Flexible working generally includes a set of core hours.
.
Your model suggests you decide when you work and where, which is not the norm.

Flexible working, certainly in the PS, seems to be somewhat abused based on my experience.
Example, by working "extra hours" which meant coming in early when there were no clients to look after and go home late, this couple accrued 5 weeks flexitime which they took off in one lump, along with 4 weeks annual leave, so they took 9 week holidays in the summer, on the continent in a camper van.

Last summer was a bit different!

This is an abject failure of line management afraid of Forsa

I call BS. That is not allowed under the terms of flexi working in the public service. The maximum number of days that can be accrued / taken off is between 1 and 1.5 days per 4 week period, (since HRA in most places the max allowed is still only 1 day) meaning the most anyone can accrue is 13 days over a year, not 5 weeks. Flexi leave cannot be banked and taken as a block.

Also accrual of flexi leave has been suspended for anyone working from home since last April due to Covid and has not been restored yet.

floorpie

Jim2007 wrote: »

They are not so random, they are all done in countries where people live to work...

First one is an Irish survey

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

I call BS. That is not allowed under the terms of flexi working in the public service. The maximum hours that can be accrued is between 1 and 1.5 days per 4 week period, (since HRA in most places the max allowed is still only 1 day) meaning the most anyone can accrue is 13 days per year, not 5 weeks. Also flexi leave can not be banked and taken as a block.

Also accrual of flexi leave has been suspended for anyone working from home since last April due to Covid and has not been restored yet.

No idea why you'd call BS on that.......pre covid it WAS indeed permitted / allowed to accrue extra days and then take in one "fowl swoop" in the public sector. Any chance you can post a link to anything showing where accused days cannot be banked & used for an "extended" holiday?????

Ken Mc Carthy

Ken Mc Carthy wrote: »

No idea why you'd call BS on that.......pre covid it WAS indeed permitted / allowed to accrue extra days and then take in one "fowl swoop" in the public sector. Any chance you can post a link to anything showing where accused days cannot be banked & used for an "extended" holiday?????

Because it is BS.

Under flexi time working the max flexi leave allowed to accrue is 1 / 1.5 days per four week period. The same limit applies to how much flexi leave you are allowed take each month.

Flexi leave cannot be banked and taken as a block and no one can accrue 5 weeks worth in one year.

If there is any truth to the anecdote, the couple involved may have used the the shorter working year scheme (SWYS) to extend their summer. Which is UNPAID leave.

But it definitely wasn't accrued flexi leave. Have a look at the Circular on Flexi time working. I'm sure if you google it you'll find it handy enough.

irelandrover

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I'm going to conduct a poll. I'll keep count.

Who wants 100% work from home?

Hit "thanks" on my post for YES.

From this poll I can see that 100% of people want to work from home full time.

ineedeuro

ineedeuro wrote: »

It's a funny old World. Prior to lockdown everyone wanted to work from home. Well the majority anyway

The thing is we've had the worst possible version of working from home. Work done, nothing to do, nowhere to go, everywhere closed. Once that changes we'll see what WFH is really like. August evenings with the pubs open etc.
Even going into autumn the cafes and bistros with the sense to not be locked up and empty at 6pm will make a killing.

Now people are getting the option to WFH and they want rent paid etc.
If the office turns around and tell the same people they can no longer WFH and have to go into office they will start complaining about commute time.
Some people you just can't please

Those people talking about rent for the company using their equipment are the ones who know their job description letter for letter. Any change other than a payrise would be treated by them with suspicion at the very least. Most had zero interest in working from home to begin with.

shadyslimshady

Some people live to work and think their center of attention in the office when in reality every hates them and like to assert their authority.

Some managers get off on thinking the people under them fear them which is pretty sad.

Others love to lick arse and be delighted when a higher up pat's them on the pat for working a 60 hour week and been available out of hours for no extra pay.

Everyone knows these sort of idiots who live to work.
Once an office is providing a hot desk to work for they will still come up with excuses.

If a company had 100 employees and 90 worked from home and 10 were allowed to work from the office they would still give out wanting the 90 back in the office.

Mrs OBumble

Deleted User wrote: »

Under flexi time working the max flexi leave allowed to accrue is 1 / 1.5 days per four week period. The same limit applies to how much flexi leave you are allowed take each month.

Flexi leave cannot be banked and taken as a block and no one can accrue 5 weeks worth in one year.

That is how it is applied in your organisation. Others are different. I know of one place where stunts like that described were possible (since clamped down on).

Bass Reeves wrote: »

... At the end of the third meeting there was an older mid level manager in his early 50's spoke up. .... All you need is one lad with a pair of gahones

With that one action, a middle manager, ie of a species which many posters on this thread regard as a useless waste of space, probably did more for morale, workforce retention and product quality than the rest of the room did all month. Someone who can do the right thing at the right time is usually very valuable in a team.

Mrs OBumble

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

That is how it is applied in your organisation. Others are different. .

Please name the organisation that allows 5 weeks worth of flexi leave to be accrued and taken all at one time.

Thanks.

Bass Reeves

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

With that one action, a middle manager, ie of a species which many posters on this thread regard as a useless waste of space, probably did more for morale, workforce retention and product quality than the rest of the room did all month. Someone who can do the right thing at the right time is usually very valuable in a team.

Managers and workers like that are the lads that seldom say anything at a meeting. They seldom as questions at meetings. They are more often than not excellent managers or workers. Often they have reached a management level or a job that they are happy with. Often they are in position that are more financially rewarding than the average.

However when they do speak it to make a point, often they take no prisoners and they leave everyone know exactly where they stand on the issue they spoke about. They never waffle it's straight to the point.....or the juglar

SouthWesterly

Cyrus wrote: »

we are going to social distance forever?

Can't see us sitting cheek by jowel for 8 hours a day anymore.
The virus will still be there and transmissible. Not everyone will be vsccinated

Padre_Pio

SouthWesterly wrote: »

Can't see us sitting cheek by jowel for 8 hours a day anymore.
The virus will still be there and transmissible. Not everyone will be vsccinated

If you're going to work the expectation will be to be vaccinated, unless you have some mitigating circumstance.
Otherwise stay at home.

the14thwarrior

Deleted User wrote: »

Because it is BS.

Under flexi time working the max flexi leave allowed to accrue is 1 / 1.5 days per four week period. The same limit applies to how much flexi leave you are allowed take each month.

Flexi leave cannot be banked and taken as a block and no one can accrue 5 weeks worth in one year.

If there is any truth to the anecdote, the couple involved may have used the the shorter working year scheme (SWYS) to extend their summer. Which is UNPAID leave.

But it definitely wasn't accrued flexi leave. Have a look at the Circular on Flexi time working. I'm sure if you google it you'll find it handy enough.

defo BS.
in olden days of yore there were stories like this, and they were true enough for some people. not for a long time now. wouldn't be allowed. wouldn't be accepted, not in complience and they have really cracked down on all this flexi leave abuse. some places make you take any flexi leave within the next four weeks. in fact, this is the rule, the norm, and you can't bank it. use it or lose it.

Bass Reeves

Padre_Pio wrote: »

If you're going to work the expectation will be to be vaccinated, unless you have some mitigating circumstance.
Otherwise stay at home.

It's a bit more complicated than that. We have not found out that we can help control viruses by mask wearing and hand washing and not having crowded area.

One thing is we can now use these techniques now to reduce the winter flu season. Expect Hospitals to stop alot of visiting for December, January and February to reduce the impact of the winter flu seasons on health system .

Employers will see the benefits with less time lost to health issues during the winter period. As well it will no longer be considered good practice to come to a workplace if you are sick especially with virus type symptoms

Bass Reeves

Bass Reeves wrote: »

Managers and workers like that are the lads that seldom say anything at a meeting. They seldom as questions at meetings. They are more often than not excellent managers or workers. Often they have reached a management level or a job that they are happy with. Often they are in position that are more financially rewarding than the average.

However when they do speak it to make a point, often they take no prisoners and they leave everyone know exactly where they stand on the issue they spoke about. They never waffle it's straight to the point.....or the juglar

The ones who speak the most and ask the most questions in meetings genuinely and generally come across like they're asking a question to let on that they have a clue what's going on.

[Deleted User]

[Deleted User] wrote: »

The ones who speak the most and ask the most questions in meetings genuinely and generally come across like they're asking a question to let on that they have a clue what's going on.

Don't forget to place or punch your fist on the table, and say something like "we need to get this over the line, guys, how are we going to do it?"

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

Don't forget to place or punch your fist on the table, and say something like "we need to get this over the line, guys, how are we going to do it?"

Thank **** I haven't worked with characters from TV shows. :pac:

[Deleted User]

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Thank **** I haven't worked with characters from TV shows. :pac:

I swear to you I witnessed this with my own eyes. I remember thinking "what a ****ing spoofer".

Flinty997

floorpie wrote: »

How are your coworkers building up 5 weeks of flexileave when there's a maximum carry over per month and a max allowed leave per month?

I think we all know it's BS.

I have been in places where staff have been in habit of not taking annual leave and eventually a person builds up so much they are asked to use it up and can end up being off for weeks, to get their leave back in order.

But that's management just letting it side for too long.

Flinty997

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Don't forget to place or punch your fist on the table, and say something like "we need to get this over the line, guys, how are we going to do it?"

Have to say I've worked with similar.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buzzword_bingo

Bass Reeves

[Deleted User] wrote: »

The ones who speak the most and ask the most questions in meetings genuinely and generally come across like they're asking a question to let on that they have a clue what's going on.

I remember once being told about 25 years ago when these types of meeting started to become common;

'' Do not ask question unless you know the answer..... however if you know the answer you do not need to ask the f@@king question''


One of the best bit of advice I ever got.

Calhoun

One of the more interesting things to see will be if the greens use covid 19 and the emergent WFH strategy that is socially acceptable now to start tacking on more carbon charges for companies.

I know our base in the UK has been WFH for a very long time because the cost to have employee in the office.

Admittedly there will still need to be a balance because not everyone has the option to WFH but i think the combining factor of cost reduction over covid and the likelihood of carbon measures at some point will see it become one of the tools in the future to use.

Calahonda52

https://www.rte.ie/news/business/2021/0525/1223841-irish-fiscal-advisory-council/

Sets the real tone here going forward, especially the piece below

However, it said the €5.4 billion increase in permanent, non-Covid, expenditure this year was "not prudent" and has used up most of the resources that might be generated by a recovering economy.

The correction needed, with debt at 250 bn, will make the austerity post 2008 look like unbridled largesse

Lewis_Benson

Padre_Pio wrote: »

Just got word today that work is downsizing their offices and the COVID work from home policy is going to be a near-permanent WHF policy.

Basically, the new office will only have hot desks, maybe half as many as there are staff. Employees have to book a desk in advance if they need to come into the office, but your permanent desk is expected to be in your own home.

There's uproar from certain people, but the response is basically put up and shut up.
Personally, there's no mention of home working in my contract. I was looking forward to getting back into the office and I barely have the space for a desk where I'm living at the moment, never mind a full setup.

Anyone have any experience of this? Places like Google and Facebook have said they're looking at similar policies. Any ideas how that went down with staff?

Sounds ideal to me.
I've been WFH since March 2020.
I have no desire to go back to the office full time, not a hope.
A hybrid working environment is the way forward.

listermint

Cyrus wrote: »

yes but its not mandatory which is what the poster appeared to suggest. i am in singapore 2-3 times a year and you rarely see anyone in a mask.

Must be walking around with your eyes closed on Singapore then .....

listermint

Calahonda52 wrote: »

https://www.rte.ie/news/business/2021/0525/1223841-irish-fiscal-advisory-council/

Sets the real tone here going forward, especially the piece below

However, it said the €5.4 billion increase in permanent, non-Covid, expenditure this year was "not prudent" and has used up most of the resources that might be generated by a recovering economy.

The correction needed, with debt at 250 bn, will make the austerity post 2008 look like unbridled largesse

Tbf that's a bit of a bollix line. The 5.4 billion spent would exactly be what prevented austerity. There was people put on payments which mean the economy is primed for a rebound. That effort is the prime it's not wasted money.

screamer

The lack of ability to adapt to a different office norm is astounding. Luckily I’ve worked for progressive companies most of my working life and working from home was normal. I actually said to a colleague one day everyone should hot desk, it mixes up the office and makes it more interesting. However, I know there are people who just cannot wrap their heads around it, so then I’d say if you want an assigned desk, you work from the office 5 days a week, and only remote workers have to hot desk. That seems like a decent compromise, as most of us know the benefits of working from home. Finally as for the company paying to use your facilities, well, no. If you don’t want to use your desk/ electricity at home then pay to commute to work and use theirs. Generally, the cost of commuting would cover the costs you’d have at home easily.

Flinty997

listermint wrote: »

Must be walking around with your eyes closed on Singapore then .....

You can just check videos on youtube and see what it was like in any Asian country before Covid in terms of Street life and walking around and crowds etc.

https://youtu.be/Z1nnEua2oPg

Flinty997

Calhoun wrote: »

One of the more interesting things to see will be if the greens use covid 19 and the emergent WFH strategy that is socially acceptable now to start tacking on more carbon charges for companies.

I know our base in the UK has been WFH for a very long time because the cost to have employee in the office.

Admittedly there will still need to be a balance because not everyone has the option to WFH but i think the combining factor of cost reduction over covid and the likelihood of carbon measures at some point will see it become one of the tools in the future to use.

The greens had two chances and blown both of them. They won't get a third in living memory I expect.

scheister

I have been doing a bit of WFH and WFO over the last year. To me my current set up does not allow to be as efficient when WFH.
I interviewed for a new job recently and they admitting them Hybrid is more likely the way forward. I have no issue with a 3/2 mix either way. I think flexibility is needed. For me September is my busiest period if we worked fully from Office for the month would be ideal.
I think WFH is grand once the right IT systems are in place, you are given expenses to cover extra costs and the right boundaries are set up in your house. To me flexibility but cop on is the way to go.

ineedeuro

Flinty997 wrote: »

The greens had two chances and blown both of them. They won't get a third in living memory I expect.

The Greens are just 1 year in a 5 year government plan. In that short space they have already got a huge project over the line in the midlands.

Covid will be over hopefully soon and we can make decision then but once you dont listen to the PR BS from some parties you actually see what is going on.

Cyrus

listermint wrote: »

Must be walking around with your eyes closed on Singapore then .....

not at all, like i said 3 times a year, rarely if ever see anyone with a mask on, obviously havent been there since last january im sure they will be more prevalent, and they still take your temp when getting off the plane.

but my point was, they arent mandatory, i cant see them being mandatory here after the end of the summer, into autumn.

listermint

Cyrus wrote: »

not at all, like i said 3 times a year, rarely if ever see anyone with a mask on, obviously havent been there since last january im sure they will be more prevalent, and they still take your temp when getting off the plane.

but my point was, they arent mandatory, i cant see them being mandatory here after the end of the summer, into autumn.

I've been there about 4 times over the last few years. Never failed to spot a mask . I'm not saying everyone wheres one but your implications that they are not a common sight is untrue. It's common practice and not a surprise to see a mask . And no that doesn't mean everyone wheres them.

ineedeuro

Cyrus wrote: »

not at all, like i said 3 times a year, rarely if ever see anyone with a mask on, obviously havent been there since last january im sure they will be more prevalent, and they still take your temp when getting off the plane.

but my point was, they arent mandatory, i cant see them being mandatory here after the end of the summer, into autumn.

I went to Singapore twice, both occasions seen plenty of people with masks. Travelled all over Asia and it is very common.
Even in US you have large communities from Asia and they will wear masks

Cyrus

Flinty997 wrote: »

You can just check videos on youtube and see what it was like in any Asian country before Covid in terms of Street life and walking around and crowds etc.

https://youtu.be/Z1nnEua2oPg

i skimmed through some of it but certainly tallies with my experience in singapore, was there one person in a mask there?

Cyrus

listermint wrote: »

I've been there about 4 times over the last few years. Never failed to spot a mask . I'm not saying everyone wheres one but your implications that they are not a common sight is untrue. It's common practice and not a surprise to see a mask . And no that doesn't mean everyone wheres them.

i go back to my original point, that they arent mandatory.

and i disagree they are a common sight, maybe 1-2% of people wear them, but they are a small minority.

ineedeuro

Cyrus wrote: »

i go back to my original point, that they arent mandatory.

and i disagree they are a common sight, maybe 1-2% of people wear them, but they are a small minority.

Prior to covid masks where not mandatory that didnt stop people wearing them and it was a lot more than 1-2%

listermint

Cyrus wrote: »

i go back to my original point, that they arent mandatory.

and i disagree they are a common sight, maybe 1-2% of people wear them, but they are a small minority.

That's ok. I think your wrong based on my own experience. It's not a small minority and I'm not debating if they were are or will be mandatory.

Cyrus

listermint wrote: »

That's ok. I think your wrong based on my own experience. It's not a small minority and I'm not debating if they were are or will be mandatory.

Thats ok, i think you are wrong based on my experience, it is a small minority. I wasn't debtating re whether they were mandatory or not, i just said they weren't.

Cyrus

Cyrus wrote: »

i go back to my original point, that they arent mandatory.

and i disagree they are a common sight, maybe 1-2% of people wear them, but they are a small minority.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=992wYvePrSU

Video from last month. Masks everywhere when people are walking the streets, closer to 90% than 2%. Fewer wearing masks when sitting/dining, but that's to be expected.

KaneToad

Padre_Pio wrote: »

If you're going to work the expectation will be to be vaccinated, unless you have some mitigating circumstance.
Otherwise stay at home.

Those who want 100% WFH should just not get vaccinated, at that rate.

Also, is it clear whether we will need an annual Covid shot?

limnam

KaneToad wrote: »

Those who want 100% WFH should just not get vaccinated, at that rate.

Also, is it clear whether we will need an annual Covid shot?

why would people WFH all the time not need a vaccine ?


Can they not leave their house after work like everyone else?

Cyrus

Deleted User wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=992wYvePrSU

Video from last month. Masks everywhere when people are walking the streets, closer to 90% than 2%. Fewer wearing masks when sitting/dining, but that's to be expected.

thanks for that, but thats not what i was talking about,

i said masks didnt persist in asia (speficically singapore in my experience) post sars (which was what 10-15 years ago), certainly not in any mandatory capacity, and rarely worn by people out and about.

im sure its different right now when mandatory mask wearing indoors is enforced and maybe its outdoors over there aswell at the moment, as i said i havent been there since jan last year.

the video the other poster linked was representative of singapore pre covid, i.e. no one was wearing a mask.