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Dealer sold car without logbook

  • 16-05-2021 3:25pm
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 220 ✭✭ hosi


    Hi, I have purchased a car from a dealer but it turns out the car is still registered on another dealer. The another dealer isn’t bothered to send the logbook or maybe lost it. I have sale agreement and have paid with card. What options do I have? Legal advice?


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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 73,713 ✭✭✭✭ Atlantic Dawn


    Do you actually have posession of the car now?

    Have a look on motortax.ie to see if the logbook is showing as traded in or changes or nothing...
    https://www.motortax.ie/OMT/changeOwnership.do

    I'd then only deal with dealer you bought the car from, tell them they have 5 days to work it out or you will do a chargeback on your card for a refund.


  • Registered Users Posts: 798 ✭✭✭ Whocare


    hosi wrote: »
    Hi, I have purchased a car from a dealer but it turns out the car is still registered on another dealer. The another dealer isn’t bothered to send the logbook or maybe lost it. I have sale agreement and have paid with card. What options do I have? Legal advice?

    Do you think dealer you bought it from is bit cowboy/asshole ? If so it legal road you need to go


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,780 ✭✭✭ sentient_6


    And buyer bought a car without a log book.


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,720 ✭✭✭✭ CianRyan


    hosi wrote: »
    Hi, I have purchased a car from a dealer but it turns out the car is still registered on another dealer. The another dealer isn’t bothered to send the logbook or maybe lost it. I have sale agreement and have paid with card. What options do I have? Legal advice?

    Shannon will send you a form to be stamped by a main dealers to confirm chassis number and a commissioner of oath/solicitor.
    Bit of a pain but no major issue, if you call up a tax office and explain they will be able to help you.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,973 ✭✭✭ User1998




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  • Registered Users Posts: 27,297 ✭✭✭✭ _Kaiser_


    I had exactly this issue last month with my new purchase.

    Bought the car from the dealer who didn't tell me that he was actually selling it on behalf of another one. It took 6 weeks and me chasing him almost daily for the last 2 of those to get it sorted.

    Shannon of course are/were only answering emails rather than the phone and the mails I sent them were answered with a different response by a different person each time. The last one insisted I couldn't use the Statutory Declaration form for a car being sold by a dealer though.

    The local Gardai weren't much help either but agreed I should just keep the receipt/invoice in the glove box in the interim.

    In the meantime of course I couldn't tax it, couldn't transfer my toll tag to it (as there were outstanding payments owed by the previous owner), and the insurance were chasing for a copy of the VRC.

    It got sorted when the other dealer supposedly got the VRC from the previous owner, transferred it to the garage I bought it from, who in turn finally transferred it to me. At that stage I was at the point of driving up to the dealer, and calling their local Garda station to come sort it out.

    I don't know if it was just laziness/incompetence or if there was some dodge going on to be honest, but all you can really do is keep chasing the dealer you bought it from.

    This wouldn't be a crowd on the Naas road would it OP?


  • Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators, Regional North Mods, Regional West Moderators Posts: 81,469 Mod ✭✭✭✭ biko


    Sounds kinda dodgy. These may be respectable dealers but with no logbook I'd be wary.
    Is there a written contract between you and the newest dealer?


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,883 ✭✭✭ kravmaga


    hosi wrote: »
    Hi, I have purchased a car from a dealer but it turns out the car is still registered on another dealer. The another dealer isn’t bothered to send the logbook or maybe lost it. I have sale agreement and have paid with card. What options do I have? Legal advice?

    Name and shame the dealership on social media, put a negative review on social media platforms such as Twitter, google reviews, Facebook, the works.

    Im sure they will resolve it with you very quickly then.

    Did you buy from a dealer in the Bermuda triangle of car dealers , aka Naas road , D 12 triangle?


  • Registered Users Posts: 27,297 ✭✭✭✭ _Kaiser_


    kravmaga wrote: »
    Did you buy from a dealer in the Bermuda triangle of car dealers , aka Naas road , D 12 triangle?

    I did, but they had good reviews on Google so I thought I'd be safe enough, plus the car itself was exactly what I was looking for and perfect.


  • Registered Users Posts: 13,655 ✭✭✭✭ wonski


    I would still expect to see the logbook and have a chance to sign after paying for a car. Dealer or private sale.

    Saying that we all make mistakes when buying, luckily all mistakes can be fixed.

    Keep pushing the dealer op, he has to get it sorted for you. It is simple process and all dealers, even the ones on Naas Road know the procedure.

    Edit: bought a car on 10/05 meself from simi registered official dealer and got the logbook delivered from Shannon on 13/05.

    Couldn't believe it.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 774 ✭✭✭ FrankC21


    Why you bought it without a logbook? Oh Why?


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,817 ✭✭✭ Darc19


    _Kaiser_ wrote: »
    I had exactly this issue last month with my new purchase.


    The local Gardai weren't much help either but agreed I should just keep the receipt/invoice in the glove box in the interim.

    ?

    The gardai for a civil matter caused by your own error?

    Why waste their time?

    Initially go the reasonable route of asking it to be done quickly, then go the route of saying you'll have to return the car and do a chargeback.

    The loss of a sale is usually enough to move things along.

    But calling the Gardai is just ridiculous.


  • Registered Users Posts: 267 ✭✭ coathanger


    hosi wrote: »
    Hi, I have purchased a car from a dealer but it turns out the car is still registered on another dealer. The another dealer isn’t bothered to send the logbook or maybe lost it. I have sale agreement and have paid with card. What options do I have? Legal advice?

    We had this problem in the past !
    It was never resolved in our favour....

    As the dealer we bought off , had bought of another dealership without paying for it ...
    We kept being fobbed off by the first dealer, contacted Shannon , & filled out the replacement form but that only helped us discover that it was another dealers property & the first dealer hadn’t paid them for the sale .

    The first dealer then went bust owing money to us & numerous people, banks etc

    Moral of this story.
    I would recommend you do a charge back & don’t waste anymore time chasing up the logbook & walk away & buy elsewhere.


  • Registered Users Posts: 448 ✭✭ costacorta


    _Kaiser_ wrote: »
    I had exactly this issue last month with my new purchase.

    Bought the car from the dealer who didn't tell me that he was actually selling it on behalf of another one. It took 6 weeks and me chasing him almost daily for the last 2 of those to get it sorted.

    Shannon of course are/were only answering emails rather than the phone and the mails I sent them were answered with a different response by a different person each time. The last one insisted I couldn't use the Statutory Declaration form for a car being sold by a dealer though.

    The local Gardai weren't much help either but agreed I should just keep the receipt/invoice in the glove box in the interim.

    In the meantime of course I couldn't tax it, couldn't transfer my toll tag to it (as there were outstanding payments owed by the previous owner), and the insurance were chasing for a copy of the VRC.

    It got sorted when the other dealer supposedly got the VRC from the previous owner, transferred it to the garage I bought it from, who in turn finally transferred it to me. At that stage I was at the point of driving up to the dealer, and calling their local Garda station to come sort it out.

    I don't know if it was just laziness/incompetence or if there was some dodge going on to be honest, but all you can really do is keep chasing the dealer you bought it from.

    This wouldn't be a crowd on the Naas road would it OP?

    Moral of the story is never pay for a vehicle off of anybody without getting or signing the logbook of the said vehicle..


  • Registered Users Posts: 26,383 ✭✭✭✭ Dempo1


    sentient_6 wrote: »
    And buyer bought a car without a log book.

    In fairness, log book / Vehicle registration cert usually not issued at point of sale as it has to be sent to department to do change of ownership. I'd be more concerned as to why the dealer who sold the vehicle, not the actual owner.

    Is maith an scáthán súil charad.




  • Registered Users Posts: 774 ✭✭✭ FrankC21


    Dempo1 wrote: »
    In fairness, log book / Vehicle registration cert usually not issued at point of sale as it has to be sent to department to do change of ownership. I'd be more concerned as to why the dealer who sold the vehicle, not the actual owner.

    Did he atleast did a motorcheck


  • Posts: 0 Simone Ugly Egg


    costacorta wrote: »
    Moral of the story is never pay for a vehicle off of anybody without getting or signing the logbook of the said vehicle..

    You do neither when buying from 99% of dealers as they can do the change of ownership online.


  • Registered Users Posts: 26,383 ✭✭✭✭ Dempo1


    FrankC21 wrote: »
    Did he atleast did a motorcheck

    Would that show current ownership? I'd doubt it, I understood motor check primarily to assess outstanding finance, car written off etc, I'm open to correction

    Is maith an scáthán súil charad.




  • Registered Users Posts: 27,297 ✭✭✭✭ _Kaiser_


    Darc19 wrote: »
    The gardai for a civil matter caused by your own error?

    Why waste their time?

    Initially go the reasonable route of asking it to be done quickly, then go the route of saying you'll have to return the car and do a chargeback.

    The loss of a sale is usually enough to move things along.

    But calling the Gardai is just ridiculous.

    My aren't you helpful today Darc!

    What exactly do you think the Gardai are there for then if not to assist in situations like this? Maybe just walking around empty parks and beauty spots taking pictures for the Twitter feed, or catching people for speeding on motorways?

    By the time it was sorted in my case I was starting to think that there must be some revenue/tax dodge or possibly fraud going on - all of which would be in the Gardai's remit to follow-up on.

    Nonsense reply.
    FrankC21 wrote: »
    Did he atleast did a motorcheck
    Dempo1 wrote: »
    Would that show current ownership? I'd doubt it, I understood motor check primarily to assess outstanding finance, car written off etc, I'm open to correction

    In my case yes I did and it showed that it was owned/registered to a dealer - but of course it didn't say WHICH dealer or that there was a different dealer involved as well.

    On the logbook thing . I've only ever bought cars from dealers and never had this issue despite not seeing the physical logbook for the car and having bought 7 cars previously that way.


  • Registered Users Posts: 26,383 ✭✭✭✭ Dempo1


    _Kaiser_ wrote: »
    My aren't you helpful today Darc!

    What exactly do you think the Gardai are there for then if not to assist in situations like this? Maybe just walking around empty parks and beauty spots taking pictures for the Twitter feed, or catching people for speeding on motorways?

    By the time it was sorted in my case I was starting to think that there must be some revenue/tax dodge or possibly fraud going on - all of which would be in the Gardai's remit to follow-up on.

    Nonsense reply.





    In my case yes I did and it showed that it was owned/registered to a dealer - but of course it didn't say WHICH dealer or that there was a different dealer involved as well.

    On the logbook thing . I've only ever bought cars from dealers and never had this issue despite not seeing the physical logbook for the car and having bought 7 cars previously that way.

    Ah I see, I did one myself last year, couldn't remember if it showed current ownership, thanks :)

    Is maith an scáthán súil charad.




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  • Moderators, Arts Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 9,957 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Hellrazer


    costacorta wrote: »
    Moral of the story is never pay for a vehicle off of anybody without getting or signing the logbook of the said vehicle..

    You dont sign a log book when you buy from a dealer - most dealers do the transfers of new ownership online.

    Id say whats happened here is that theres a chain involved where the 1st dealer hasnt transferred ownership to the second dealer - The 1st dealer could be waiting on the actual log book from the original owner that he took the trade / or bought the car from.

    They are waiting for it to be transferred to the second dealer who can then register it to the new owner.

    All this assumes they are registered to transfer online - and most SIMI dealers are - however some arent which makes the process longer as the log book will need to be actually posted by each link in the chain so to speak and if theres any delay in that then it holds up everything.

    It happens sometimes but is never really an issue as everything is back dated to the date of sale.


  • Registered Users Posts: 27,297 ✭✭✭✭ _Kaiser_


    Hellrazer wrote: »
    You dont sign a log book when you buy from a dealer - most dealers do the transfers of new ownership online.

    Id say whats happened here is that theres a chain involved where the 1st dealer hasnt transferred ownership to the second dealer - The 1st dealer could be waiting on the actual log book from the original owner that he took the trade / or bought the car from.

    They are waiting for it to be transferred to the second dealer who can then register it to the new owner.


    All this assumes they are registered to transfer online - and most SIMI dealers are - however some arent which makes the process longer as the log book will need to be actually posted by each link in the chain so to speak and if theres any delay in that then it holds up everything.

    It happens sometimes but is never really an issue as everything is back dated to the date of sale.

    Exactly that in my case.

    It did cause me issues though as I described above and it also left me with a month's tax arrears which amounted to €60. I could chase for it but that'd no doubt be another saga.

    I didn't realise though that arrears resets the due dates when you pay it, so actually that suits as insurance and my son's birthday were all in the same month so one bright spot is the tax can now come out of the next month's pay cheque going forward.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,294 ✭✭✭ monkeybutter


    _Kaiser_ wrote: »
    My aren't you helpful today Darc!

    What exactly do you think the Gardai are there for then if not to assist in situations like this? Maybe just walking around empty parks and beauty spots taking pictures for the Twitter feed, or catching people for speeding on motorways?

    By the time it was sorted in my case I was starting to think that there must be some revenue/tax dodge or possibly fraud going on - all of which would be in the Gardai's remit to follow-up on.

    Nonsense reply.





    In my case yes I did and it showed that it was owned/registered to a dealer - but of course it didn't say WHICH dealer or that there was a different dealer involved as well.

    On the logbook thing . I've only ever bought cars from dealers and never had this issue despite not seeing the physical logbook for the car and having bought 7 cars previously that way.




    An garda would do nothing for you and your baseless conspiracy


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,175 ✭✭✭ finbarrk


    FrankC21 wrote: »
    Why you bought it without a logbook? Oh Why?

    That's the way its done these days. It was a dealer sale. Not a private one.


  • Moderators, Arts Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 9,957 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Hellrazer


    _Kaiser_ wrote: »
    Exactly that in my case.

    Its not that unusual.
    It did cause me issues though as I described above and it also left me with a month's tax arrears which amounted to €60. I could chase for it but that'd no doubt be another saga.

    How did you end up with arrears as the transfer should have been backdated to the date of sale. You shouldnt have been liable for arrears unless you are talking about the delay in getting the log book back in which case you would have been taxing it any way??


  • Registered Users Posts: 27,297 ✭✭✭✭ _Kaiser_


    Hellrazer wrote: »
    Its not that unusual.



    How did you end up with arrears as the transfer should have been backdated to the date of sale. You shouldnt have been liable for arrears unless you are talking about the delay in getting the log book back in which case you would have been taxing it any way??

    The tax was out at the end of March. Couldn't tax it until the start of May (when the ownership was finally transferred to me) which left me with €60 owed in arrears.


  • Moderators, Arts Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 9,957 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Hellrazer


    _Kaiser_ wrote: »
    The tax was out at the end of March. Couldn't tax it until the start of May (when the ownership was finally transferred to me) which left me with €60 owed in arrears.
    When did you buy it?
    if it was march its not really arrears as you would have been taxing it anyway?
    If it was May when you bought it you shouldnt have been charged arrears as they disappear with a new owner.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,279 ✭✭✭ mrslancaster


    FrankC21 wrote: »
    Did he atleast did a motorcheck

    How do those motor check companies manage to have so much information about cars if they are private companies & not a government agency - info on outstanding finance, RTA, tax & nct history, previous owners etc.

    Is that information on a public database somewhere? If it's not public then how can private business gather it with all the GDPR rules these days.


  • Registered Users Posts: 421 ✭✭ tmh106


    Are the Log Book and the Registration Certificate the same document or separate documents? If separate, do you need to have both?

    The reason I ask is because I have a Registration Certificate for my car but I don't have anything that has Log Book written on it and I don't think I've ever seen anything called Log Book for my car.


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  • Moderators, Arts Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 9,957 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Hellrazer


    How do those motor check companies manage to have so much information about cars if they are private companies & not a government agency - info on outstanding finance, RTA, tax & nct history, previous owners etc.

    Is that information on a public database somewhere? If it's not public then how can private business gather it with all the GDPR rules these days.

    It doesnt break GDPR as far as Im aware as the reports dont name any person - its more that its about the vehicle - for example it might say there is finance outstanding on the vehicle but it doenst name the person who has the finance on it - number of owners, tax etc is freely available but again doesnt name names,just vehicle information.


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