Dealer sold car without logbook

hosi

Hi, I have purchased a car from a dealer but it turns out the car is still registered on another dealer. The another dealer isn’t bothered to send the logbook or maybe lost it. I have sale agreement and have paid with card. What options do I have? Legal advice?

Atlantic Dawn

Do you actually have posession of the car now?

Have a look on motortax.ie to see if the logbook is showing as traded in or changes or nothing...
https://www.motortax.ie/OMT/changeOwnership.do

I'd then only deal with dealer you bought the car from, tell them they have 5 days to work it out or you will do a chargeback on your card for a refund.

Whocare

hosi wrote: »

Hi, I have purchased a car from a dealer but it turns out the car is still registered on another dealer. The another dealer isn’t bothered to send the logbook or maybe lost it. I have sale agreement and have paid with card. What options do I have? Legal advice?

Do you think dealer you bought it from is bit cowboy/asshole ? If so it legal road you need to go

sentient_6

And buyer bought a car without a log book.

CianRyan

hosi wrote: »

Hi, I have purchased a car from a dealer but it turns out the car is still registered on another dealer. The another dealer isn’t bothered to send the logbook or maybe lost it. I have sale agreement and have paid with card. What options do I have? Legal advice?

Shannon will send you a form to be stamped by a main dealers to confirm chassis number and a commissioner of oath/solicitor.
Bit of a pain but no major issue, if you call up a tax office and explain they will be able to help you.

User1998

Fill this out and send it to Dept of Transport

https://smartcpr.ie/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/Declaration-by-person-acquiring-motor-vehicle.pdf

_Kaiser_

I had exactly this issue last month with my new purchase.

Bought the car from the dealer who didn't tell me that he was actually selling it on behalf of another one. It took 6 weeks and me chasing him almost daily for the last 2 of those to get it sorted.

Shannon of course are/were only answering emails rather than the phone and the mails I sent them were answered with a different response by a different person each time. The last one insisted I couldn't use the Statutory Declaration form for a car being sold by a dealer though.

The local Gardai weren't much help either but agreed I should just keep the receipt/invoice in the glove box in the interim.

In the meantime of course I couldn't tax it, couldn't transfer my toll tag to it (as there were outstanding payments owed by the previous owner), and the insurance were chasing for a copy of the VRC.

It got sorted when the other dealer supposedly got the VRC from the previous owner, transferred it to the garage I bought it from, who in turn finally transferred it to me. At that stage I was at the point of driving up to the dealer, and calling their local Garda station to come sort it out.

I don't know if it was just laziness/incompetence or if there was some dodge going on to be honest, but all you can really do is keep chasing the dealer you bought it from.

This wouldn't be a crowd on the Naas road would it OP?

biko

Sounds kinda dodgy. These may be respectable dealers but with no logbook I'd be wary.
Is there a written contract between you and the newest dealer?

kravmaga

hosi wrote: »

Hi, I have purchased a car from a dealer but it turns out the car is still registered on another dealer. The another dealer isn’t bothered to send the logbook or maybe lost it. I have sale agreement and have paid with card. What options do I have? Legal advice?

Name and shame the dealership on social media, put a negative review on social media platforms such as Twitter, google reviews, Facebook, the works.

Im sure they will resolve it with you very quickly then.

Did you buy from a dealer in the Bermuda triangle of car dealers , aka Naas road , D 12 triangle?

_Kaiser_

kravmaga wrote: »

Did you buy from a dealer in the Bermuda triangle of car dealers , aka Naas road , D 12 triangle?

I did, but they had good reviews on Google so I thought I'd be safe enough, plus the car itself was exactly what I was looking for and perfect.

wonski

I would still expect to see the logbook and have a chance to sign after paying for a car. Dealer or private sale.

Saying that we all make mistakes when buying, luckily all mistakes can be fixed.

Keep pushing the dealer op, he has to get it sorted for you. It is simple process and all dealers, even the ones on Naas Road know the procedure.

Edit: bought a car on 10/05 meself from simi registered official dealer and got the logbook delivered from Shannon on 13/05.

Couldn't believe it.

FrankC21

Why you bought it without a logbook? Oh Why?

Darc19

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

I had exactly this issue last month with my new purchase.


The local Gardai weren't much help either but agreed I should just keep the receipt/invoice in the glove box in the interim.

?

The gardai for a civil matter caused by your own error?

Why waste their time?

Initially go the reasonable route of asking it to be done quickly, then go the route of saying you'll have to return the car and do a chargeback.

The loss of a sale is usually enough to move things along.

But calling the Gardai is just ridiculous.

coathanger

hosi wrote: »

Hi, I have purchased a car from a dealer but it turns out the car is still registered on another dealer. The another dealer isn’t bothered to send the logbook or maybe lost it. I have sale agreement and have paid with card. What options do I have? Legal advice?

We had this problem in the past !
It was never resolved in our favour....

As the dealer we bought off , had bought of another dealership without paying for it ...
We kept being fobbed off by the first dealer, contacted Shannon , & filled out the replacement form but that only helped us discover that it was another dealers property & the first dealer hadn’t paid them for the sale .

The first dealer then went bust owing money to us & numerous people, banks etc

Moral of this story.
I would recommend you do a charge back & don’t waste anymore time chasing up the logbook & walk away & buy elsewhere.

costacorta

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

I had exactly this issue last month with my new purchase.

Bought the car from the dealer who didn't tell me that he was actually selling it on behalf of another one. It took 6 weeks and me chasing him almost daily for the last 2 of those to get it sorted.

Shannon of course are/were only answering emails rather than the phone and the mails I sent them were answered with a different response by a different person each time. The last one insisted I couldn't use the Statutory Declaration form for a car being sold by a dealer though.

The local Gardai weren't much help either but agreed I should just keep the receipt/invoice in the glove box in the interim.

In the meantime of course I couldn't tax it, couldn't transfer my toll tag to it (as there were outstanding payments owed by the previous owner), and the insurance were chasing for a copy of the VRC.

It got sorted when the other dealer supposedly got the VRC from the previous owner, transferred it to the garage I bought it from, who in turn finally transferred it to me. At that stage I was at the point of driving up to the dealer, and calling their local Garda station to come sort it out.

I don't know if it was just laziness/incompetence or if there was some dodge going on to be honest, but all you can really do is keep chasing the dealer you bought it from.

This wouldn't be a crowd on the Naas road would it OP?

Moral of the story is never pay for a vehicle off of anybody without getting or signing the logbook of the said vehicle..

Dempo1

sentient_6 wrote: »

And buyer bought a car without a log book.

In fairness, log book / Vehicle registration cert usually not issued at point of sale as it has to be sent to department to do change of ownership. I'd be more concerned as to why the dealer who sold the vehicle, not the actual owner.

FrankC21

Dempo1 wrote: »

In fairness, log book / Vehicle registration cert usually not issued at point of sale as it has to be sent to department to do change of ownership. I'd be more concerned as to why the dealer who sold the vehicle, not the actual owner.

Did he atleast did a motorcheck

costacorta

costacorta wrote: »

Moral of the story is never pay for a vehicle off of anybody without getting or signing the logbook of the said vehicle..

You do neither when buying from 99% of dealers as they can do the change of ownership online.

Dempo1

FrankC21 wrote: »

Did he atleast did a motorcheck

Would that show current ownership? I'd doubt it, I understood motor check primarily to assess outstanding finance, car written off etc, I'm open to correction

_Kaiser_

Darc19 wrote: »

The gardai for a civil matter caused by your own error?

Why waste their time?

Initially go the reasonable route of asking it to be done quickly, then go the route of saying you'll have to return the car and do a chargeback.

The loss of a sale is usually enough to move things along.

But calling the Gardai is just ridiculous.

My aren't you helpful today Darc!

What exactly do you think the Gardai are there for then if not to assist in situations like this? Maybe just walking around empty parks and beauty spots taking pictures for the Twitter feed, or catching people for speeding on motorways?

By the time it was sorted in my case I was starting to think that there must be some revenue/tax dodge or possibly fraud going on - all of which would be in the Gardai's remit to follow-up on.

Nonsense reply.

FrankC21 wrote: »

Did he atleast did a motorcheck

Dempo1 wrote: »

Would that show current ownership? I'd doubt it, I understood motor check primarily to assess outstanding finance, car written off etc, I'm open to correction

In my case yes I did and it showed that it was owned/registered to a dealer - but of course it didn't say WHICH dealer or that there was a different dealer involved as well.

On the logbook thing . I've only ever bought cars from dealers and never had this issue despite not seeing the physical logbook for the car and having bought 7 cars previously that way.

Dempo1

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

My aren't you helpful today Darc!

What exactly do you think the Gardai are there for then if not to assist in situations like this? Maybe just walking around empty parks and beauty spots taking pictures for the Twitter feed, or catching people for speeding on motorways?

By the time it was sorted in my case I was starting to think that there must be some revenue/tax dodge or possibly fraud going on - all of which would be in the Gardai's remit to follow-up on.

Nonsense reply.





In my case yes I did and it showed that it was owned/registered to a dealer - but of course it didn't say WHICH dealer or that there was a different dealer involved as well.

On the logbook thing . I've only ever bought cars from dealers and never had this issue despite not seeing the physical logbook for the car and having bought 7 cars previously that way.

Ah I see, I did one myself last year, couldn't remember if it showed current ownership, thanks

Hellrazer

costacorta wrote: »

Moral of the story is never pay for a vehicle off of anybody without getting or signing the logbook of the said vehicle..

You dont sign a log book when you buy from a dealer - most dealers do the transfers of new ownership online.

Id say whats happened here is that theres a chain involved where the 1st dealer hasnt transferred ownership to the second dealer - The 1st dealer could be waiting on the actual log book from the original owner that he took the trade / or bought the car from.

They are waiting for it to be transferred to the second dealer who can then register it to the new owner.

All this assumes they are registered to transfer online - and most SIMI dealers are - however some arent which makes the process longer as the log book will need to be actually posted by each link in the chain so to speak and if theres any delay in that then it holds up everything.

It happens sometimes but is never really an issue as everything is back dated to the date of sale.

_Kaiser_

Hellrazer wrote: »

You dont sign a log book when you buy from a dealer - most dealers do the transfers of new ownership online.

Id say whats happened here is that theres a chain involved where the 1st dealer hasnt transferred ownership to the second dealer - The 1st dealer could be waiting on the actual log book from the original owner that he took the trade / or bought the car from.

They are waiting for it to be transferred to the second dealer who can then register it to the new owner.

All this assumes they are registered to transfer online - and most SIMI dealers are - however some arent which makes the process longer as the log book will need to be actually posted by each link in the chain so to speak and if theres any delay in that then it holds up everything.

It happens sometimes but is never really an issue as everything is back dated to the date of sale.

Exactly that in my case.

It did cause me issues though as I described above and it also left me with a month's tax arrears which amounted to €60. I could chase for it but that'd no doubt be another saga.

I didn't realise though that arrears resets the due dates when you pay it, so actually that suits as insurance and my son's birthday were all in the same month so one bright spot is the tax can now come out of the next month's pay cheque going forward.

monkeybutter

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

My aren't you helpful today Darc!

What exactly do you think the Gardai are there for then if not to assist in situations like this? Maybe just walking around empty parks and beauty spots taking pictures for the Twitter feed, or catching people for speeding on motorways?

By the time it was sorted in my case I was starting to think that there must be some revenue/tax dodge or possibly fraud going on - all of which would be in the Gardai's remit to follow-up on.

Nonsense reply.





In my case yes I did and it showed that it was owned/registered to a dealer - but of course it didn't say WHICH dealer or that there was a different dealer involved as well.

On the logbook thing . I've only ever bought cars from dealers and never had this issue despite not seeing the physical logbook for the car and having bought 7 cars previously that way.

An garda would do nothing for you and your baseless conspiracy

finbarrk

FrankC21 wrote: »

Why you bought it without a logbook? Oh Why?

That's the way its done these days. It was a dealer sale. Not a private one.

Hellrazer

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

Exactly that in my case.

Its not that unusual.

It did cause me issues though as I described above and it also left me with a month's tax arrears which amounted to €60. I could chase for it but that'd no doubt be another saga.

How did you end up with arrears as the transfer should have been backdated to the date of sale. You shouldnt have been liable for arrears unless you are talking about the delay in getting the log book back in which case you would have been taxing it any way??

_Kaiser_

Hellrazer wrote: »

Its not that unusual.



How did you end up with arrears as the transfer should have been backdated to the date of sale. You shouldnt have been liable for arrears unless you are talking about the delay in getting the log book back in which case you would have been taxing it any way??

The tax was out at the end of March. Couldn't tax it until the start of May (when the ownership was finally transferred to me) which left me with €60 owed in arrears.

Hellrazer

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

The tax was out at the end of March. Couldn't tax it until the start of May (when the ownership was finally transferred to me) which left me with €60 owed in arrears.

When did you buy it?
if it was march its not really arrears as you would have been taxing it anyway?
If it was May when you bought it you shouldnt have been charged arrears as they disappear with a new owner.

mrslancaster

FrankC21 wrote: »

Did he atleast did a motorcheck

How do those motor check companies manage to have so much information about cars if they are private companies & not a government agency - info on outstanding finance, RTA, tax & nct history, previous owners etc.

Is that information on a public database somewhere? If it's not public then how can private business gather it with all the GDPR rules these days.

tmh106

Are the Log Book and the Registration Certificate the same document or separate documents? If separate, do you need to have both?

The reason I ask is because I have a Registration Certificate for my car but I don't have anything that has Log Book written on it and I don't think I've ever seen anything called Log Book for my car.

Hellrazer

mrslancaster wrote: »

How do those motor check companies manage to have so much information about cars if they are private companies & not a government agency - info on outstanding finance, RTA, tax & nct history, previous owners etc.

Is that information on a public database somewhere? If it's not public then how can private business gather it with all the GDPR rules these days.

It doesnt break GDPR as far as Im aware as the reports dont name any person - its more that its about the vehicle - for example it might say there is finance outstanding on the vehicle but it doenst name the person who has the finance on it - number of owners, tax etc is freely available but again doesnt name names,just vehicle information.

Hellrazer

tmh106 wrote: »

Are the Log Book and the Registration Certificate the same document or separate documents? If separate, do you need to have both?

The reason I ask is because I have a Registration Certificate for my car but I don't have anything that has Log Book written on it and I don't think I've ever seen anything called Log Book for my car.

The VLC (registration certificate) used to be also known as a "log book"

Old schoolers like myself and others still call it the "log book"

mrslancaster

Hellrazer wrote: »

It doesnt break GDPR as far as Im aware as the reports dont name any person - its more that its about the vehicle - for example it might say there is finance outstanding on the vehicle but it doenst name the person who has the finance on it - number of owners, tax etc is freely available but again doesnt name names,just vehicle information.

thanks Hellrazer, I'm just curious to know where do they get the information? Does a finance company pass it on or an insurance company & how is the number of owners & tax or nct freely available.
When I use the online tax system I need a pin to access my own car details. If I decide to sell my car on done deal & buyer wants one of those reports, how can some company get current & historical data about my car.

_Kaiser_

Hellrazer wrote: »

When did you buy it?
if it was march its not really arrears as you would have been taxing it anyway?
If it was May when you bought it you shouldnt have been charged arrears as they disappear with a new owner.

Tax expired end of March. Bought it on Good Friday.

VLC was backdated to that date but when I finally was able to tax it earlier this month (May), the online portal showed €60 owed in arrears (for that month of April).

As far as the system is concerned, I've owned it since the start of April but didn't tax it till May, hence the arrears.

Hellrazer

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

Tax expired end of March. Bought it on Good Friday.

VLC was backdated to that date but when I finally was able to tax it earlier this month (May), the online portal showed €60 owed in arrears (for that month of April).

As far as the system is concerned, I've owned it since the start of April but didn't tax it till May, hence the arrears.

Thats not really arrears - you would have had to pay for Aprils tax anyway as it expired in March and you bought it in April even though it was transferred to you in May.

You werent really stung for arrears. If you had gotten the VLC in April you would still have had to pay Aprils tax even if it was the last day of April.

_Kaiser_

Hellrazer wrote: »

Thats not really arrears - you would have had to pay for Aprils tax anyway as it expired in March and you bought it in April even though it was transferred to you in May.

You werent really stung for arrears. If you had gotten the VLC in April you would still have had to pay Aprils tax even if it was the last day of April.

No, if I'd been able to tax it in April then yes I'd have paid back to the start of the month which would have been fine.

But because I wasn't able to tax it till May there was a 60 quid charge added - total for the year €660 as a result.

(Screenshot added from the emailed receipt)

Brian Scan

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

No, if I'd been able to tax it in April then yes I'd have paid back to the start of the month which would have been fine.

But because I wasn't able to tax it till May there was a 60 quid charge added - total for the year €660 as a result.

(Screenshot added from the emailed receipt)

You've paid for a period of 13 mths.

Tax for 12 mths works out at €50 per month. The month you paid as arrears cost €60, so you've been "penalized" €10.