Can she keep the rent that I paid?

Lorlaa · 15-05-2021 06:21AM #1

Until recently I was renting a room in an owner occupied apartment; on 23rd April I paid my May rent (which was due on 1st May but it was payday so I wanted it out of the way) and on 29th April she told me that she needed the room for her cousin so I’d have to move out. I found a place, paid deposit, and got keys by the Sunday (2nd May) and had everything moved out of the room as of end of business yesterday (13th May). She’s now saying that she’s taking €170 out of my deposit to cover the May bills and she won’t be returning any of the rent that I paid for the month of May (approx €350). There’s no damage and no reason for her to keep my money and I’ve moved out and given the keys back within two weeks of her asking me to leave.

I know that the PRTB don’t deal with owner occupied tenancies so I don’t know where to turn.

Also, as an aside, I have the room rental agreement that I signed and it appears to be different to the one she showed me; an additional sentence was in hers (from what I can remember). The rental agreement also states that no guest can stay for longer than 3 days without prior agreement but her boyfriend was there every night this year so it seems to me that she was in breech of the agreement that she made.

Anyway, any in put would be appreciated and if you want anything clarified, just ask

‚ thanks in advance.

Pawwed Rig · 15-05-2021 06:27AM

Small claims court.

She is the owner occupier. She can have who ever she wants over for as long as she likes. She is not bound by your agreement

android1 · 15-05-2021 06:49AM

The rental agreement also states that no guest can stay for longer than 3 days without prior agreement but her boyfriend was there every night this year so it seems to me that she was in breech of the agreement that she made.

The owner never asked your permission to allow her boyfriend to stay over longer than 3 days? The permission of someone who rents a room out in her home?

Lorlaa · 15-05-2021 06:56AM

android1 wrote: »

The rental agreement also states that no guest can stay for longer than 3 days without prior agreement but her boyfriend was there every night this year so it seems to me that she was in breech of the agreement that she made.

The owner never asked your permission to allow her boyfriend to stay over longer than 3 days? The permission of someone who rents a room out in her home?

That’s correct. He just showed up one day and kept coming back. It got to a point that I would see his car outside when getting home from work and I was enraged because he was there AGAIN. I felt so uncomfortable in a place that I was paying to “live” in

lawred2 · 15-05-2021 07:01AM

She owns the house. The agreement about guests was for you.

Eire Go Brach · 15-05-2021 07:01AM

Although legally you have no rights. Sounds like you done nothing wrong and she is robbing you. I’d be standing out side her place of work or house with a placard saying as such. Until I got my money back.

Meeoow · 15-05-2021 07:14AM

That is terrible. You are as well away from there.
Even 170 for a bill share seems steep.
File a claim in small claims court. Good luck.

Lorlaa · 15-05-2021 07:16AM

lawred2 wrote: »

She owns the house. The agreement about guests was for you.

Have you read my agreement? It doesn’t say that. It just says no guest may stay longer than three nights.

Buddy Bubs · 15-05-2021 07:17AM

The money thing sounds a disaster and you should realistically be just paying pro rata to the day you left.
As for her having her boyfriend over, she owns the house she can do what she likes.

lawred2 · 15-05-2021 07:18AM

Lorlaa wrote: »

Have you read my agreement? It doesn’t say that. It just says no guest may stay longer than three nights.

No guest of yours.

Forget about the guests thing. No agreement was broken. Maybe get some advice from FLAC about going to the small claims court.

runawaybishop · 15-05-2021 07:18AM

Lorlaa wrote: »

Have you read my agreement? It doesn’t say that. It just says no guest may stay longer than three nights.

It's her house, she can do as she wants with guests. The agreement is for you, not her.

You are getting sidetracked, tell her you want your rent back and your deposit or you will take her to small claims.

Buddy Bubs · 15-05-2021 07:20AM

Eire Go Brach wrote: »

Although legally you have no rights. Sounds like you done nothing wrong and she is robbing you. I’d be standing out side her place of work or house with a placard saying as such. Until I got my money back.

No you wouldn't. And either will the OP.

Lorlaa · 15-05-2021 07:23AM

runawaybishop wrote: »

It's her house, she can do as she wants with guests. The agreement is for you, not her.

You are getting sidetracked, tell her you want your rent back and your deposit or you will take her to small claims.

I agree that I was getting side tracked but the way the agreement is worded it covers both parties to (in her words) make it fair for both of us living there.

I’ll get my money back.

15-05-2021 07:24AM

Lorlaa wrote: »

Have you read my agreement? It doesn’t say that. It just says no guest may stay longer than three nights.

You are being incredibly naive.

The agreement required was from her to you. Who is she to receive agreement from, herself? She granted it :rolleyes:

Now, when she said you had to move out, did she say immediately, or the full month. It looks like you may have left early. I don't see why she would have to pay back the May rent. But, was there a deposit? Did she pay that back?

Lorlaa · 15-05-2021 07:41AM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

You are being incredibly naive.

The agreement required was from her to you. Who is she to receive agreement from, herself? She granted it :rolleyes:

Now, when she said you had to move out, did she say immediately, or the full month. It looks like you may have left early. I don't see why she would have to pay back the May rent. But, was there a deposit? Did she pay that back?

No, I’m not being naive and I’ll thank you to not posit that. You haven’t read the agreement, and the way she worded it it’s saying that the other occupant of the apartment is to be made aware of any people staying other than the occupants of the apartment (which was her and me, not the boyfriend); it’s not about seeking permission, it’s about respecting boundaries.

She told me she needed the room as soon as possible so I moved as soon as possible. I have yet to get the deposit back and I’m yet to see the proof of the bills amounting to €170. Since the BF was there all the time, he was using resources of the apartment that I was paying for (such as electricity) because all bills were still being halved.

Pawwed Rig · 15-05-2021 07:46AM

From post 2 onwards people have been telling you that that boyfriend issue is a non starter. You will lose the goodwill of people here if you keep banging that drum. You are bound by the contract. She is not.

You need to focus on your rent in which case lodge a claim with the small claims court.

15-05-2021 07:54AM

Lorlaa wrote: »

No, I’m not being naive and I’ll thank you to not posit that. You haven’t read the agreement, and the way she worded it it’s saying that the other occupant of the apartment is to be made aware of any people staying other than the occupants of the apartment (which was her and me, not the boyfriend); it’s not about seeking permission, it’s about respecting boundaries.

She told me she needed the room as soon as possible so I moved as soon as possible. I have yet to get the deposit back and I’m yet to see the proof of the bills amounting to €170. Since the BF was there all the time, he was using resources of the apartment that I was paying for (such as electricity) because all bills were still being halved.

Even if you think the owner of the property had to ask your permission what relevance do you think it has? How would this breach be acted upon?

You could have stayed for the entire month you paid for. Does your agreement mention required notice. If a month, she's possibly letting you off a part of June rent.

But, you should be entitled to your deposit back, unless you had to give 2 months notice.

15-05-2021 08:01AM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

You are being incredibly naive.

The agreement required was from her to you. Who is she to receive agreement from, herself? She granted it :rolleyes:

Now, when she said you had to move out, did she say immediately, or the full month. It looks like you may have left early. I don't see why she would have to pay back the May rent. But, was there a deposit? Did she pay that back?

? That was all in the op’s post.

Op, do go to small claims court. Nobody has the right to a months rent when unoccupied or occupied by someone else. She’s probably getting two months rent in May. The 170 from the deposit is probably rubbish as well.

Meeoow · 15-05-2021 08:06AM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

? That was all in the op’s post.

Op, do go to small claims court. Nobody has the right to a months rent when unoccupied or occupied by someone else. She’s probably getting two months rent in May. The 170 from the deposit is probably rubbish as well.

Agreed. Op, you can file it online. They will assess it and respond on whether or not they will take the case. You don't have to pay anything if it doesn't go to court.
The case will have to satisfy their criteria.

15-05-2021 08:06AM

Put any other issues to the back of your head and focus solely on the upfront rent you paid and the deposit.

If you left on May 2 you have 2 days rent to pay. Ask to see the bills immediately and work out what your existing agreement would make you liable to pay.

Come back to her then when you’ve worked out what you’ve overpaid and request that amount along with your deposit to be returned within a few days. If she doesn’t agree with your figures, say that it would probably be best if you bring the matter to the small claims court for them to adjudicate on it. Think it costs 15/20 euro to lodge a case.

15-05-2021 08:08AM

fvp4 wrote: »

? That was all in the op’s post.

? It wasn't. She was told to move out. Clearly that wasn't there and then. She then stayed for another two weeks.

You pay a month's rent in advance, but the notice period is what's relevant. Where is that mentioned in the OP?

15-05-2021 08:11AM

Strawberry Milkshake wrote: »

Put any other issues to the back of your head and focus solely on the upfront rent you paid and the deposit.

If you left on May 2 you have 2 days rent to pay.

She was occupying it until the 13th. But, why is everyone ignoring the notice period that presumably exists?

Iodine1 · 15-05-2021 08:25AM

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

From post 2 onwards people have been telling you that that boyfriend issue is a non starter. You will lose the goodwill of people here if you keep banging that drum. You are bound by the contract. She is not.

You need to focus on your rent in which case lodge a claim with the small claims court.

Correct! The money is the core issue, focus on that and avoid being side tracked on the boyfriend.

15-05-2021 08:36AM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

? It wasn't. She was told to move out. Clearly that wasn't there and then. She then stayed for another two weeks.

You pay a month's rent in advance, but the notice period is what's relevant. Where is that mentioned in the OP?

As reported by the op it was as soon as possible. Not the end of May.

You also asked about the deposit so it really doesn’t look like you did read the original post.

[Deleted User] wrote: »

She was occupying it until the 13th. But, why is everyone ignoring the notice period that presumably exists?

Because she was asked to leave. Notice period is what you give when you choose to leave. The landlady didn’t give the notice period here, if there was one. As reported anyway.

15-05-2021 08:42AM

fvp4 wrote: »

As reported by the op it was as soon as possible. Not the end of May.

You also asked about the deposit so it really doesn’t look like you did read the original post.

Because she was asked to leave. Notice period is what you give when you choose to leave. The landlady didn’t give the notice period here. As reported anyway.

She occupied the house for two weeks afterwards. "As soon as Possible" The tenant had the possibility to stay as long as the notice period. The OP sorted other accommodation very quickly. But, a notice period goes both ways. If a month, she COULD have stayed for a month.

15-05-2021 08:53AM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

She occupied the house for two weeks afterwards. "As soon as Possible" The tenant had the possibility to stay as long as the notice period. The OP sorted other accommodation very quickly. But, a notice period goes both ways. If a month, she COULD have stayed for a month.

So who do you think is giving the notice period here? If the owner of a house asks you to leave you have to leave.

You’ve even invented the notice period out of whole cloth. As a licensee you can be turfed out. That doesn’t mean the licensor gets the money though when you are gone.

15-05-2021 08:58AM

Notice periods are usually on or before a certain date, so if notice was 1 month and the op left after 2 weeks, I don’t see why the op should pay the full month, nor for a full month of utilities.

Op, off to the SCC, spend €25 and drag her ass into court.

15-05-2021 09:13AM

fvp4 wrote: »

You’ve even invented the notice period out of whole cloth. As a licensee you can be turfed out

Not if there's an agreement. The OP hasn't mentioned a notice period as part of an extensive agreement that included guests. I'm thinking basics like notice period is included.

15-05-2021 09:17AM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Not if there's an agreement. The OP hasn't mentioned a notice period as part of an extensive agreement that included guests. I'm thinking basics like notice period is included.

I think the LL saying she needs the room “as soon as possible” negates any right she thinks she has to charge the op a full months rent. Wouldn’t you?

15-05-2021 09:20AM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Not if there's an agreement. The OP hasn't mentioned a notice period as part of an extensive agreement that included guests. I'm thinking basics like notice period is included.

Licensee “contracts” are just house rules. I don’t think any notice period matters, or is in fact common. When I rented a room to a friend of a friend for 3 months it was a handshake.

But let’s wait on the op on that.

15-05-2021 09:22AM

Dav010 wrote: »

I think the LL saying she needs the room “as soon as possible” negates any right she thinks she has to charge the op a full months rent. Wouldn’t you?

We're going around in circles.

If there is a notice period the OP needs to pay that. She was given a notice to leave and made use of two weeks of that, if she didn't make use of any further period for which she possibly could have stayed she'll need to pay.

15-05-2021 09:25AM

fvp4 wrote: »

Licensee “contracts” are just house rules. I don’t think any notice period matters, or is in fact common. When I rented a room to a friend of a friend for 3 months it was a handshake.

But let’s wait on the op on that.

The tenancy board recommends written agreements when living as a licensee which can help with getting a deposit back etc. A signed written agreement will be useful in a small claims court.

You'd hope renting between friends is not the same as renting from a randomer.

15-05-2021 09:27AM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

We're going around in circles.

If there is a notice period the OP needs to pay that. She was given a notice to leave and made use of two weeks of that, if she didn't make use of any further period for which she possibly could have stayed she'll need to pay.

The op left “as soon as possible” as requested by the LL, I’m struggling to see why you think the op should pay rent for any period which exceeds the soonest date he/she could leave.

15-05-2021 09:27AM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

We're going around in circles.

If there is a notice period the OP needs to pay that. She was given a notice to leave and made use of two weeks of that, if she didn't make use of any further period for which she possibly could have stayed she'll need to pay.

No. You are totally wrong here. You don’t know the law.

The DayDream · 15-05-2021 09:28AM

Definitely take her to court. I can't imagine any court thinking it's okay for a landlord to accept a months rent and kick them out in the same week. And taking 170 in bills for a month you won't be there as well. Unbelievable.

15-05-2021 09:30AM

fvp4 wrote: »

No. You are totally wrong here. You don’t know the law.

What law?

15-05-2021 09:30AM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

What law?

Exactly.

15-05-2021 09:31AM

The DayDream wrote: »

Definitely take her to court. I can't imagine any court thinking it's okay for a landlord to accept a months rent and kick them out in the same week.

Definitely. If that's what happened. It wasn't. It seems like the OP vacated when it suited her, to a point.

15-05-2021 09:32AM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

What law?

The law on licensees. You are spouting the most insane balderdash. Apparently if evicted people have to also stay out their notice. That they didn’t give. That may not even be in the contract. It’s all rubbish.

15-05-2021 09:33AM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Definitely. If that's what happened. It wasn't. It seems like the OP vacated when it suited her, to a point.

“as soon as possible” is rarely anybody’s idea of suitability.

15-05-2021 09:34AM

Dav010 wrote: »

Exactly.

Contract law. Depends on what the OP signed. There was a detailed agreement, of which we know some detail.

Treppen · 15-05-2021 09:36AM

Dav010 wrote: »

The op left “as soon as possible” as requested by the LL, I’m struggling to see why you think the op should pay rent for any period which exceeds the soonest date he/she could leave.

As soon as possible could be months, weeks, days, hours...

Rent was paid monthly. If the op paid for a month but decided to move out prior then it's on them, it's not a pro rata agreement (although bills would be).

It's like buying a coffee , the waitress says they'll need the table ASAP, drinking half and demanding half the cost back because you only drank half.

15-05-2021 09:37AM

fvp4 wrote: »

The law on licensees. You are spouting the most insane balderdash. Apparently if evicted people have to also stay out their notice. That they didn’t give. That may not even be in the contract. It’s all rubbish.

The law on licences is as what was agreed. Do you understand that?

The OP will need to clarify.

15-05-2021 09:38AM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Contract law. Depends on what the OP signed. There was a detailed agreement, of which we know some detail.

Licensees can be kicked out with minimal notice. As was the case here.

15-05-2021 09:38AM

Treppen has explained it better than I tried.

15-05-2021 09:39AM

Treppen wrote: »

As soon as possible could be months, weeks, days, hours...

Rent was paid monthly. If the op paid for a month but decided to move out prior then it's on them, it's not a pro rata agreement (although bills would be).

It's like buying a coffee , the waitress says they'll need the table ASAP, drinking half and demanding half the cost back because you only drank half.

The op didn’t decide to move out. She was evicted.

15-05-2021 09:40AM

fvp4 wrote: »

Licensees can be kicked out with minimal notice. As was the case here.

The OP paid for a month and could have stayed for a month. Treppen explains it more succinctly.

15-05-2021 09:41AM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Contract law. Depends on what the OP signed. There was a detailed agreement, of which we know some detail.

I’d be surprised if that contract contained the clause “as soon as possible”. Even if there is a clause claiming one month, both parties can agree to a shorter period, by requesting the op move out asap, and the op doing so, I think you are wrong to them claim the op is bound by the month notice term.

Anyways, I’d leave it to the SCC to decide, I suspect once the LL gets that letter, a refund will be forthcoming.

Bass Reeves · 15-05-2021 09:44AM

There has to be a bit of give and take here. However the owner asked the OP to vacate as she needed the room for her cousin. If the owner asked IP to vacate ASAP then she should refund the unused part of the rent.

170 sounds high for bills. What were the normal monthly bills. TBH if someone moves into a house with a owner occupier bills should be an agreed fixed amount/month ideally.

SCC may or may not help however owner may not want to go that far. However court will probably look at signed agreement and not defer from it. Threatening to stand outside the house every evening with a sign may sort it however it could amount to a libel situation.

Often it's a matter of sucking it up and learning from the experience.Do not pay rent before it's due in future. Getting things out of the way with money is bad financial discipline.

15-05-2021 09:44AM

fvp4 wrote: »

The op didn’t decide to move out. She was evicted.

Now who's inventing the narrative. She was asked to leave as soon as possible. That's hardly getting the heavies around.

She paid for a month and could stay for a month. She left approx two weeks early, voluntarily.

15-05-2021 09:45AM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

The OP paid for a month and could have stayed for a month. Treppen explains it more succinctly.

No, he was talking bollocks too. if you are asked to leave “as soon as possible” by the licensor that’s the new notice period. When you do leave “as soon as possible” the period you are not there you cannot be charged rent for.

If the licensor wanted to abide by a clause in the contract of one month (which probably doesn’t exist) then she would have said “end of May”. She did not say “end of May” or “one month”. she said “as soon as possible”. Which ended up being two weeks.

Can she keep the rent that I paid?

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