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Things self builders fail to take into consideration/underestimate

  • 12-05-2021 7:28pm
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 884 ✭✭✭ WhiteWalls


    Hi,

    My brother is in the planning process at the moment and deciding whether he needs a builder or not.

    Just enquiring what are the issues that self builds find? Site is in the countryside and off the top of my head he would know tradesmen in the area, not friends with any but they wouldn't be strangers at the same time.

    What are the main issues that self builders find if they are not qualified/experienced in the area.

    Thanks


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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 10,929 ✭✭✭✭ Calahonda52


    Compliance


  • Registered Users Posts: 884 ✭✭✭ WhiteWalls


    Sounds like if you have people working for you that you can trust its a plus, suppose that goes without saying. It's a small village so there won't be any strangers as such working on site. As in, people will come recommended etc


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 31,303 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Gumbo


    Compliance with regulations.
    Certs for banks.

    Gaps in trades.
    Sparks comes in does his bit. Plumber comes in and says sparks took up to much space. I can’t fit now. You sort it.
    One trade moves something. Next trade says wasn’t me. You sort it.

    You order windows. Glass breaks. Your problem. Wrong size. Your problem.
    Miss a day with one trade, do you have the skill to start something else on short notice so a day is not lost.

    Continuity of materials. Supply of materials. Responsibility of having fabric alterations ready for trades.


  • Registered Users Posts: 688 ✭✭✭ keno-daytrader


    Airtightness! All trades punching holes in the roof/walls/floors.

    If doing airtightness yourself, better be on the site every day after blocking, because once its covered up its too late.


  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 6,591 Mod ✭✭✭✭ shesty


    Firstly, not fully understanding the importance of having as complete a set of drawings as possible BEFORE you start, and pricing accordingly.



    Secondly, being able to look at said drawings and anticipate the pitfalls....so things like, well I want my bathroom upstairs here, which is fine but then you go to build and discover the bit that sticks out of back of the house at ground floor level is exactly where the bathroom drainage pipes need to go....or you think at design stage, sure be nice to have my hob on the island in my kitchen, won't worry about that til I am designing my kitchen, and then discover there's no power laid to the island....that type of thing all costs time and money.


    Trade continuity is huge.



    Also not realising that self-build means you would want to be on site every single day, at least once, checking out what is going on and investigating the detail of what is being done, to avoid mistakes being made. People get paid full-time just to supervise and project manage builds for a reason, it isn't a part time job. The people I know that have gone the self-build route and don't have construction experience, I find they seriously under-estimate this fact.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,167 ✭✭✭ B-D-P--


    shesty wrote: »
    Also not realising that self-build means you would want to be on site every single day, at least once, checking out what is going on and investigating the detail of what is being done, to avoid mistakes being made. People get paid full-time just to supervise and project manage builds for a reason, it isn't a part time job. The people I know that have gone the self-build route and don't have construction experience, I find they seriously under-estimate this fact.


    Also Self build means you a daily cleaning the mess from Builders.
    This could be just sweeping the rubbish to moving rubble out of the way.

    Some trades are tidy but most are not when its self build.
    They are paid to do their job, not tidy up.


  • Registered Users Posts: 884 ✭✭✭ WhiteWalls


    Thanks for the responses.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,253 ✭✭✭ the_pen_turner


    the ones i see regularly are
    not makint desisions .
    every time you are dilly dalling around picking tiles or doors or slates etc it is costing you in delays .

    schedueling trades
    most people have no idea of the order in which jobs need to be done


    not having the full plan when getting quotes. you end up comparing apples to oranges and it ends up in delays and increased costs
    say trade 1 quotes for a b c and d . trade 2 quotes for a b and c. customer goes with trade 2 because they are cheaper. everything is great until job trade 3 turns up to do job e and job is not done and then they have to get someone in a rush to get it done


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,033 ✭✭✭ newhouse87


    Not in a million years would i go with a contractor, wouldn't be over estimating to say i will save 50k plus by going direct labour. Handy if you know all the tradesmen which is generally the case in the countryside.


  • Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators Posts: 10,101 Mod ✭✭✭✭ BryanF


    newhouse87 wrote: »
    Not in a million years would i go with a contractor, wouldn't be over estimating to say i will save 50k plus by going direct labour. Handy if you know all the tradesmen which is generally the case in the countryside.

    Are you finished your build?


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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,373 ✭✭✭ Wildly Boaring


    newhouse87 wrote: »
    Not in a million years would i go with a contractor, wouldn't be over estimating to say i will save 50k plus by going direct labour. Handy if you know all the tradesmen which is generally the case in the countryside.

    Funny enough that's exactly the figure a QS gave me as the difference.
    Now on that saving......

    It does not cover for incompetence (he was estimating for me - a person who has managed building sites in the past to self build)

    It does not cover all the above listed by some experienced people
    - Gaps in scope
    - Gaps in knowledge (and in particular compliance)
    - Delays to trades caused by slow decision making
    - Management of knowledge - drawings, specs, material choices

    Obviously the 50k also has to pay for your time and stress.

    And the last big one
    Quality - are you confident that you have the required knowledge to supervise trades and ensure a quality product.

    .....maybe self build and pay for eng/architect to call weekly and supervise quality?


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,033 ✭✭✭ newhouse87


    BryanF wrote: »
    Are you finished your build?

    nope but have my prices got, my friend got quote for 260k for 2000 sq ft house, thats no interior furnishings or kitchen, im estimating i will have 2600sq ft house done all in 300k including 50k site and all fees etc. His will be near 400k all in.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,033 ✭✭✭ newhouse87


    Funny enough that's exactly the figure a QS gave me as the difference.
    Now on that saving......

    It does not cover for incompetence (he was estimating for me - a person who has managed building sites in the past to self build)

    It does not cover all the above listed by some experienced people
    - Gaps in scope
    - Gaps in knowledge (and in particular compliance)
    - Delays to trades caused by slow decision making
    - Management of knowledge - drawings, specs, material choices

    Obviously the 50k also has to pay for your time and stress.

    And the last big one
    Quality - are you confident that you have the required knowledge to supervise trades and ensure a quality product.

    .....maybe self build and pay for eng/architect to call weekly and supervise quality?

    I have relative who was a builder now retired who is over seeing the house and i know all my tradesmen, it was a no brainer . Also my engineer is looking after the house too, foundations,roof blockwork etc.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 31,303 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Gumbo


    newhouse87 wrote: »
    I have relative who was a builder now retired who is over seeing the house and i know all my tradesmen, it was a no brainer . Also my engineer is looking after the house too, foundations,roof blockwork etc.

    If it works, it works. Fair play to you and try enjoy it.
    It’s stressful, you will never want to do it again with your own money :D


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,033 ✭✭✭ newhouse87


    Gumbo wrote: »
    If it works, it works. Fair play to you and try enjoy it.
    It’s stressful, you will never want to do it again with your own money :D

    ah im not the type to get stressed, my relative is doing all the ordering and pricing anyway, im just paying the bills.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,253 ✭✭✭ the_pen_turner


    It's not really a self build if you get someone else to do all the work. Properly organising everything is a full time job. A years wages takes a big lump out of the 50 k savings. I think that taking a year out is the only way to do it properly unless you know what your doing.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,033 ✭✭✭ newhouse87


    It's not really a self build if you get someone else to do all the work. Properly organising everything is a full time job. A years wages takes a big lump out of the 50 k savings. I think that taking a year out is the only way to do it properly unless you know what your doing.

    Its self build price im paying, thats all that matters to me. I would disagree that you need to take a year out to do it properly. Down the country most people do self builds and certainly if anything work more to pay things so i don't agree with your logic.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,253 ✭✭✭ the_pen_turner


    newhouse87 wrote: »
    Its self build price im paying, thats all that matters to me. I would disagree that you need to take a year out to do it properly. Down the country most people do self builds and certainly if anything work more to pay things so i don't agree with your logic.

    My logic is based on years of working on sites but dubbing and directly for customers. I can only think of one self build that wasnt a total disaster. .
    It's ok for you if you have someone else doing the work and all you have to do is pay . Organising trades and materials takes time.

    Right now its half 12. Myself and 2 other guys are sitting here with our feet up waiting for the customer to bring out materials that we were told were here. . Thankfully there was few small jobs to do until 10 so he is only going to be paying for 9 man hours while nothing is being done.
    This is a regular occurrence on self build. I know of one job local that is circling the drain with all the crap the trades are having to deal with the costs are going up rapidly and he cannot get trades back once their agreed section is done


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,634 ✭✭✭ ec18


    newhouse87 wrote: »
    Its self build price im paying, thats all that matters to me. I would disagree that you need to take a year out to do it properly. Down the country most people do self builds and certainly if anything work more to pay things so i don't agree with your logic.

    You aren't self building though, your family member is acting as the contractor/project manager.

    Disagree all you want but your feeling that it's not a full time job, when you don't have any experience of it


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,033 ✭✭✭ newhouse87


    My logic is based on years of working on sites but dubbing and directly for customers. I can only think of one self build that wasnt a total disaster. .
    It's ok for you if you have someone else doing the work and all you have to do is pay . Organising trades and materials takes time.

    Right now its half 12. Myself and 2 other guys are sitting here with our feet up waiting for the customer to bring out materials that we were told were here. . Thankfully there was few small jobs to do until 10 so he is only going to be paying for 9 man hours while nothing is being done.
    This is a regular occurrence on self build. I know of one job local that is circling the drain with all the crap the trades are having to deal with the costs are going up rapidly and he cannot get trades back once their agreed section is done

    Obviously there is going to be incidents like that and im not in any major rush so it wouldnt make a difference to me, as long as im not being charged more i don't care if materials are bit late. Well Considering im fourth in my family to do self build and none were a disaster along with many friends who have done similar, i will have to disagree based on my experience of people who have done self builds.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,530 ✭✭✭ Dudda


    newhouse87 wrote: »
    Its self build price im paying, thats all that matters to me. I would disagree that you need to take a year out to do it properly. Down the country most people do self builds and certainly if anything work more to pay things so i don't agree with your logic.

    A builder or contractor works out the quantities of materials, gets the quotes, orders the materials, organised and coordinates delivery, lines up the trades, oversees the quality, works out the technical issues and does all the jobs that need doing between the trades. This is what you need to take time off for or work crazy hours.
    A client pays the bills and picks the finishes. They go to site meetings and are kept informed of the issues but it's not a self build. You're a client (possibly a hands on client) but the relative is the builder. It's not a self build.

    Also some clients paint the house themselves or do the landscaping at the end when money has run out. This also doesn't make it a self build.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,033 ✭✭✭ newhouse87


    ec18 wrote: »
    You aren't self building though, your family member is acting as the contractor/project manager.

    Disagree all you want but your feeling that it's not a full time job, when you don't have any experience of it

    I have experience of family members who done it along with friends, to say take a year out to do a self build is ridiculous, and actually i have priced some materials and stuff, its not as big a job as is made out to be and seems some people just don't like admitting that they should have done a self build and saved money. With a contractor they can also do shabby work if somebody is not keeping an eye on things.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,033 ✭✭✭ newhouse87


    Dudda wrote: »
    A builder or contractor works out the quantities of materials, gets the quotes, orders the materials, organised and coordinates delivery, lines up the trades, oversees the quality, works out the technical issues and does all the jobs that need doing between the trades. This is what you need to take time off for or work crazy hours.
    A client pays the bills and picks the finishes. They go to site meetings and are kept informed of the issues but it's not a self build. You're a client (possibly a hands on client) but the relative is the builder. It's not a self build.

    Also some clients paint the house themselves or do the landscaping at the end when money has run out. This also doesn't make it a self build.

    Its my father who is looking after it so i know everything thats going on, i obviously don't have the knowledge of building but going by your logic it cant be a self build unless you are a qualified builder. Nobody who is not in the building trade is going to have the knowledge to see problems that tradesmen are trying to hide.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,373 ✭✭✭ Wildly Boaring


    newhouse87 wrote: »
    I have relative who was a builder now retired who is over seeing the house and i know all my tradesmen, it was a no brainer . Also my engineer is looking after the house too, foundations,roof blockwork etc.

    Yeah that's not a self build.
    That's a project manged build.

    It's only cheaper as the relative is free.

    Assume you've something in writing if he makes a mistake that costs you 20 grand.

    Most professionals have indemnity cover for such mishaps. We never intend to need it and most of hhave never needed it. But I'd not drive a car without insurance.... Even my uncles


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,033 ✭✭✭ newhouse87


    Yeah that's not a self build.
    That's a project manged build.

    It's only cheaper as the relative is free.

    Assume you've something in writing if he makes a mistake that costs you 20 grand.

    Most professionals have indemnity cover for such mishaps. We never intend to need it and most of hhave never needed it. But I'd not drive a car without insurance.... Even my uncles

    If i had a project manger he would not cost 50k as that will be at least the difference i will save, going by logic here most self builds are not self builds if somebody has a person keeping an eye on construction i.e an engineer which is needed to sign off for the mortgage. Its cheaper because we are getting all the tradesmen individually rather then a contractor who is adding euros to every trade that comes on site along with adding to materials.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,373 ✭✭✭ Wildly Boaring


    A self build is a self build.

    A build by a free PM is a PM build.

    Not much change out of 50k if you were paying your uncle by the hour. And he provides PI and I assume all the setting out?

    But you wouldn't know that as he's the one who builds stuff.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,033 ✭✭✭ newhouse87


    A self build is a self build.

    A build by a free PM is a PM build.

    Not much change out of 50k if you were paying your uncle by the hour.

    But you wouldn't know that as he's the one who builds stuff.

    No by your logic no such thing as a self build. I think people way over estimate what's involved, if your the type to get stressed easily maybe its not for you. At the start i was pricing timber,insulation, agreed prices and paid before price increases came along, now essentially my father is keeping an eye on the tradesmen. We know all the tradesmen, i don't think people take into account how much easier this makes things.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,253 ✭✭✭ the_pen_turner


    newhouse87 wrote: »
    Obviously there is going to be incidents like that and im not in any major rush so it wouldnt make a difference to me, as long as im not being charged more i don't care if materials are bit late. Well Considering im fourth in my family to do self build and none were a disaster along with many friends who have done similar, i will have to disagree based on my experience of people who have done self builds.

    of course you are going to get changed more if guys are sitting around waiting on materials.

    maybe 6-8 self builds ran perfect. i highly doubt that. not in my experience anyway.
    i would like to hear the trades side of it. that disaster job i talked about earlier , the customer thinks its going great but its crazy disorganised and costs spiraling


  • Subscribers Posts: 36,273 ✭✭✭✭ sydthebeat


    youll always here the (embellished) successful self build stories of great savings etc...

    but you hardly ever hear the disaster stories of the stress, mistakes, long build time, poor workmanship etc stories... because people never want to admit they were wrong.

    successful self builds are all dependent on planning. everything must be planned for, every decision made and fixed before sod is turned, and every nail priced for.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,033 ✭✭✭ newhouse87


    of course you are going to get changed more if guys are sitting around waiting on materials.

    maybe 6-8 self builds ran perfect. i highly doubt that. not in my experience anyway.
    i would like to hear the trades side of it. that disaster job i talked about earlier , the customer thinks its going great but its crazy disorganised and costs spiraling

    I have prices agreed, they are not getting anymore, its that simple, alot of them taking bits of cash too. i know this wont all run smoothly, but im not getting stressed over delays, im not in any mad rush or deadline to meet.


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