Things self builders fail to take into consideration/underestimate

WhiteWalls

Hi,

My brother is in the planning process at the moment and deciding whether he needs a builder or not.

Just enquiring what are the issues that self builds find? Site is in the countryside and off the top of my head he would know tradesmen in the area, not friends with any but they wouldn't be strangers at the same time.

What are the main issues that self builders find if they are not qualified/experienced in the area.

Thanks

Calahonda52

Compliance

WhiteWalls

Sounds like if you have people working for you that you can trust its a plus, suppose that goes without saying. It's a small village so there won't be any strangers as such working on site. As in, people will come recommended etc

Gumbo

Compliance with regulations.
Certs for banks.

Gaps in trades.
Sparks comes in does his bit. Plumber comes in and says sparks took up to much space. I can’t fit now. You sort it.
One trade moves something. Next trade says wasn’t me. You sort it.

You order windows. Glass breaks. Your problem. Wrong size. Your problem.
Miss a day with one trade, do you have the skill to start something else on short notice so a day is not lost.

Continuity of materials. Supply of materials. Responsibility of having fabric alterations ready for trades.

keno-daytrader

Airtightness! All trades punching holes in the roof/walls/floors.

If doing airtightness yourself, better be on the site every day after blocking, because once its covered up its too late.

shesty

Firstly, not fully understanding the importance of having as complete a set of drawings as possible BEFORE you start, and pricing accordingly.



Secondly, being able to look at said drawings and anticipate the pitfalls....so things like, well I want my bathroom upstairs here, which is fine but then you go to build and discover the bit that sticks out of back of the house at ground floor level is exactly where the bathroom drainage pipes need to go....or you think at design stage, sure be nice to have my hob on the island in my kitchen, won't worry about that til I am designing my kitchen, and then discover there's no power laid to the island....that type of thing all costs time and money.


Trade continuity is huge.



Also not realising that self-build means you would want to be on site every single day, at least once, checking out what is going on and investigating the detail of what is being done, to avoid mistakes being made. People get paid full-time just to supervise and project manage builds for a reason, it isn't a part time job. The people I know that have gone the self-build route and don't have construction experience, I find they seriously under-estimate this fact.

B-D-P--

shesty wrote: »

Also not realising that self-build means you would want to be on site every single day, at least once, checking out what is going on and investigating the detail of what is being done, to avoid mistakes being made. People get paid full-time just to supervise and project manage builds for a reason, it isn't a part time job. The people I know that have gone the self-build route and don't have construction experience, I find they seriously under-estimate this fact.

Also Self build means you a daily cleaning the mess from Builders.
This could be just sweeping the rubbish to moving rubble out of the way.

Some trades are tidy but most are not when its self build.
They are paid to do their job, not tidy up.

WhiteWalls

Thanks for the responses.

the_pen_turner

the ones i see regularly are
not makint desisions .
every time you are dilly dalling around picking tiles or doors or slates etc it is costing you in delays .

schedueling trades
most people have no idea of the order in which jobs need to be done


not having the full plan when getting quotes. you end up comparing apples to oranges and it ends up in delays and increased costs
say trade 1 quotes for a b c and d . trade 2 quotes for a b and c. customer goes with trade 2 because they are cheaper. everything is great until job trade 3 turns up to do job e and job is not done and then they have to get someone in a rush to get it done

newhouse87

Not in a million years would i go with a contractor, wouldn't be over estimating to say i will save 50k plus by going direct labour. Handy if you know all the tradesmen which is generally the case in the countryside.

BryanF

newhouse87 wrote: »

Not in a million years would i go with a contractor, wouldn't be over estimating to say i will save 50k plus by going direct labour. Handy if you know all the tradesmen which is generally the case in the countryside.

Are you finished your build?

Wildly Boaring

newhouse87 wrote: »

Not in a million years would i go with a contractor, wouldn't be over estimating to say i will save 50k plus by going direct labour. Handy if you know all the tradesmen which is generally the case in the countryside.

Funny enough that's exactly the figure a QS gave me as the difference.
Now on that saving......

It does not cover for incompetence (he was estimating for me - a person who has managed building sites in the past to self build)

It does not cover all the above listed by some experienced people
- Gaps in scope
- Gaps in knowledge (and in particular compliance)
- Delays to trades caused by slow decision making
- Management of knowledge - drawings, specs, material choices

Obviously the 50k also has to pay for your time and stress.

And the last big one
Quality - are you confident that you have the required knowledge to supervise trades and ensure a quality product.

.....maybe self build and pay for eng/architect to call weekly and supervise quality?

newhouse87

BryanF wrote: »

Are you finished your build?

nope but have my prices got, my friend got quote for 260k for 2000 sq ft house, thats no interior furnishings or kitchen, im estimating i will have 2600sq ft house done all in 300k including 50k site and all fees etc. His will be near 400k all in.

newhouse87

Wildly Boaring wrote: »

Funny enough that's exactly the figure a QS gave me as the difference.
Now on that saving......

It does not cover for incompetence (he was estimating for me - a person who has managed building sites in the past to self build)

It does not cover all the above listed by some experienced people
- Gaps in scope
- Gaps in knowledge (and in particular compliance)
- Delays to trades caused by slow decision making
- Management of knowledge - drawings, specs, material choices

Obviously the 50k also has to pay for your time and stress.

And the last big one
Quality - are you confident that you have the required knowledge to supervise trades and ensure a quality product.

.....maybe self build and pay for eng/architect to call weekly and supervise quality?

I have relative who was a builder now retired who is over seeing the house and i know all my tradesmen, it was a no brainer . Also my engineer is looking after the house too, foundations,roof blockwork etc.

Gumbo

newhouse87 wrote: »

I have relative who was a builder now retired who is over seeing the house and i know all my tradesmen, it was a no brainer . Also my engineer is looking after the house too, foundations,roof blockwork etc.

If it works, it works. Fair play to you and try enjoy it.
It’s stressful, you will never want to do it again with your own money

newhouse87

Gumbo wrote: »

If it works, it works. Fair play to you and try enjoy it.
It’s stressful, you will never want to do it again with your own money

ah im not the type to get stressed, my relative is doing all the ordering and pricing anyway, im just paying the bills.

the_pen_turner

It's not really a self build if you get someone else to do all the work. Properly organising everything is a full time job. A years wages takes a big lump out of the 50 k savings. I think that taking a year out is the only way to do it properly unless you know what your doing.

newhouse87

the_pen_turner wrote: »

It's not really a self build if you get someone else to do all the work. Properly organising everything is a full time job. A years wages takes a big lump out of the 50 k savings. I think that taking a year out is the only way to do it properly unless you know what your doing.

Its self build price im paying, thats all that matters to me. I would disagree that you need to take a year out to do it properly. Down the country most people do self builds and certainly if anything work more to pay things so i don't agree with your logic.

the_pen_turner

newhouse87 wrote: »

Its self build price im paying, thats all that matters to me. I would disagree that you need to take a year out to do it properly. Down the country most people do self builds and certainly if anything work more to pay things so i don't agree with your logic.

My logic is based on years of working on sites but dubbing and directly for customers. I can only think of one self build that wasnt a total disaster. .
It's ok for you if you have someone else doing the work and all you have to do is pay . Organising trades and materials takes time.

Right now its half 12. Myself and 2 other guys are sitting here with our feet up waiting for the customer to bring out materials that we were told were here. . Thankfully there was few small jobs to do until 10 so he is only going to be paying for 9 man hours while nothing is being done.
This is a regular occurrence on self build. I know of one job local that is circling the drain with all the crap the trades are having to deal with the costs are going up rapidly and he cannot get trades back once their agreed section is done

ec18

newhouse87 wrote: »

Its self build price im paying, thats all that matters to me. I would disagree that you need to take a year out to do it properly. Down the country most people do self builds and certainly if anything work more to pay things so i don't agree with your logic.

You aren't self building though, your family member is acting as the contractor/project manager.

Disagree all you want but your feeling that it's not a full time job, when you don't have any experience of it

newhouse87

the_pen_turner wrote: »

My logic is based on years of working on sites but dubbing and directly for customers. I can only think of one self build that wasnt a total disaster. .
It's ok for you if you have someone else doing the work and all you have to do is pay . Organising trades and materials takes time.

Right now its half 12. Myself and 2 other guys are sitting here with our feet up waiting for the customer to bring out materials that we were told were here. . Thankfully there was few small jobs to do until 10 so he is only going to be paying for 9 man hours while nothing is being done.
This is a regular occurrence on self build. I know of one job local that is circling the drain with all the crap the trades are having to deal with the costs are going up rapidly and he cannot get trades back once their agreed section is done

Obviously there is going to be incidents like that and im not in any major rush so it wouldnt make a difference to me, as long as im not being charged more i don't care if materials are bit late. Well Considering im fourth in my family to do self build and none were a disaster along with many friends who have done similar, i will have to disagree based on my experience of people who have done self builds.

Dudda

newhouse87 wrote: »

Its self build price im paying, thats all that matters to me. I would disagree that you need to take a year out to do it properly. Down the country most people do self builds and certainly if anything work more to pay things so i don't agree with your logic.

A builder or contractor works out the quantities of materials, gets the quotes, orders the materials, organised and coordinates delivery, lines up the trades, oversees the quality, works out the technical issues and does all the jobs that need doing between the trades. This is what you need to take time off for or work crazy hours.
A client pays the bills and picks the finishes. They go to site meetings and are kept informed of the issues but it's not a self build. You're a client (possibly a hands on client) but the relative is the builder. It's not a self build.

Also some clients paint the house themselves or do the landscaping at the end when money has run out. This also doesn't make it a self build.

newhouse87

ec18 wrote: »

You aren't self building though, your family member is acting as the contractor/project manager.

Disagree all you want but your feeling that it's not a full time job, when you don't have any experience of it

I have experience of family members who done it along with friends, to say take a year out to do a self build is ridiculous, and actually i have priced some materials and stuff, its not as big a job as is made out to be and seems some people just don't like admitting that they should have done a self build and saved money. With a contractor they can also do shabby work if somebody is not keeping an eye on things.

newhouse87

Dudda wrote: »

A builder or contractor works out the quantities of materials, gets the quotes, orders the materials, organised and coordinates delivery, lines up the trades, oversees the quality, works out the technical issues and does all the jobs that need doing between the trades. This is what you need to take time off for or work crazy hours.
A client pays the bills and picks the finishes. They go to site meetings and are kept informed of the issues but it's not a self build. You're a client (possibly a hands on client) but the relative is the builder. It's not a self build.

Also some clients paint the house themselves or do the landscaping at the end when money has run out. This also doesn't make it a self build.

Its my father who is looking after it so i know everything thats going on, i obviously don't have the knowledge of building but going by your logic it cant be a self build unless you are a qualified builder. Nobody who is not in the building trade is going to have the knowledge to see problems that tradesmen are trying to hide.

Wildly Boaring

newhouse87 wrote: »

I have relative who was a builder now retired who is over seeing the house and i know all my tradesmen, it was a no brainer . Also my engineer is looking after the house too, foundations,roof blockwork etc.

Yeah that's not a self build.
That's a project manged build.

It's only cheaper as the relative is free.

Assume you've something in writing if he makes a mistake that costs you 20 grand.

Most professionals have indemnity cover for such mishaps. We never intend to need it and most of hhave never needed it. But I'd not drive a car without insurance.... Even my uncles

newhouse87

Wildly Boaring wrote: »

Yeah that's not a self build.
That's a project manged build.

It's only cheaper as the relative is free.

Assume you've something in writing if he makes a mistake that costs you 20 grand.

Most professionals have indemnity cover for such mishaps. We never intend to need it and most of hhave never needed it. But I'd not drive a car without insurance.... Even my uncles

If i had a project manger he would not cost 50k as that will be at least the difference i will save, going by logic here most self builds are not self builds if somebody has a person keeping an eye on construction i.e an engineer which is needed to sign off for the mortgage. Its cheaper because we are getting all the tradesmen individually rather then a contractor who is adding euros to every trade that comes on site along with adding to materials.

Wildly Boaring

A self build is a self build.

A build by a free PM is a PM build.

Not much change out of 50k if you were paying your uncle by the hour. And he provides PI and I assume all the setting out?

But you wouldn't know that as he's the one who builds stuff.

newhouse87

Wildly Boaring wrote: »

A self build is a self build.

A build by a free PM is a PM build.

Not much change out of 50k if you were paying your uncle by the hour.

But you wouldn't know that as he's the one who builds stuff.

No by your logic no such thing as a self build. I think people way over estimate what's involved, if your the type to get stressed easily maybe its not for you. At the start i was pricing timber,insulation, agreed prices and paid before price increases came along, now essentially my father is keeping an eye on the tradesmen. We know all the tradesmen, i don't think people take into account how much easier this makes things.

the_pen_turner

newhouse87 wrote: »

Obviously there is going to be incidents like that and im not in any major rush so it wouldnt make a difference to me, as long as im not being charged more i don't care if materials are bit late. Well Considering im fourth in my family to do self build and none were a disaster along with many friends who have done similar, i will have to disagree based on my experience of people who have done self builds.

of course you are going to get changed more if guys are sitting around waiting on materials.

maybe 6-8 self builds ran perfect. i highly doubt that. not in my experience anyway.
i would like to hear the trades side of it. that disaster job i talked about earlier , the customer thinks its going great but its crazy disorganised and costs spiraling

sydthebeat

youll always here the (embellished) successful self build stories of great savings etc...

but you hardly ever hear the disaster stories of the stress, mistakes, long build time, poor workmanship etc stories... because people never want to admit they were wrong.

successful self builds are all dependent on planning. everything must be planned for, every decision made and fixed before sod is turned, and every nail priced for.

newhouse87

the_pen_turner wrote: »

of course you are going to get changed more if guys are sitting around waiting on materials.

maybe 6-8 self builds ran perfect. i highly doubt that. not in my experience anyway.
i would like to hear the trades side of it. that disaster job i talked about earlier , the customer thinks its going great but its crazy disorganised and costs spiraling

I have prices agreed, they are not getting anymore, its that simple, alot of them taking bits of cash too. i know this wont all run smoothly, but im not getting stressed over delays, im not in any mad rush or deadline to meet.

newhouse87

sydthebeat wrote: »

youll always here the (embellished) successful self build stories of great savings etc...

but you hardly ever hear the disaster stories of the stress, mistakes, long build time, poor workmanship etc stories... because people never want to admit they were wrong.

successful self builds are all dependent on planning. everything must be planned for, every decision made and fixed before sod is turned, and every nail priced for.

I agree good planing is essential, have been planning a year in advance of turning sod. All them problems can arise with contractors too, the problems maybe even worse as if you are not keeping an eye on each trade the contractor can hide mistakes easier.

the_pen_turner

newhouse87 wrote: »

I have prices agreed, they are not getting anymore, its that simple, alot of them taking bits of cash too. i know this wont all run smoothly, but im not getting stressed over delays, im not in any mad rush or deadline to meet.

you would want to check your fine print.
the price is dependant on you keeping your endd of the deal

newhouse87

the_pen_turner wrote: »

you would want to check your fine print.
the price is dependant on you keeping your endd of the deal

Haven't even got fine print, you will think its mad but these all verbal agreements as all are taking cash. Local lads know if they screw local person, word of mouth will ruin their reps.

the_pen_turner

newhouse87 wrote: »

Haven't even got fine print, you will think its mad but these all verbal agreements as all are taking cash. Local lads know if they screw local person, word of mouth will ruin their reps.

but its you that would be screwing them

newhouse87

the_pen_turner wrote: »

but its you that would be screwing them

look obviously thats not my intention and so far things have gone smooth but that will change im sure, i just dont think its worth the money paying a contractor, they are charging exorbitant figures at the moment, if mine takes longer so be it.

awec

newhouse87 wrote: »

I have prices agreed, they are not getting anymore, its that simple, alot of them taking bits of cash too. i know this wont all run smoothly, but im not getting stressed over delays, im not in any mad rush or deadline to meet.

I know very little about building houses but even I know this is not how it works.

newhouse87

awec wrote: »

I know very little about building houses but even I know this is not how it works.

it is when you are paying cash and know the tradesmen.

ec18

newhouse87 wrote: »

look obviously thats not my intention and so far things have gone smooth but that will change im sure, i just dont think its worth the money paying a contractor, they are charging exorbitant figures at the moment, if mine takes longer so be it.

If you have a retired builder relative that's willing to do it for free it's definitely not worth the money paying a contractor.....

If you don't have access to said relative then whether to pay the contractor or not has vastly different pros and cons

newhouse87

ec18 wrote: »

If you have a retired builder relative that's willing to do it for free it's definitely not worth the money paying a contractor.....

If you don't have access to said relative then whether to pay the contractor or not has vastly different pros and cons

3 of my friends recently done it with no retired builder to oversee, i can see the pros of a contractor but contractors also have you over barrel if they want more money, as they can stop all the trades. If you are not rushing a self build is the only way imo. You save money everywhere compared to a contractor. I do agree its good to have knowledgeable person overseeing things but it would be worth paying 1 retired guy cash to keep eye on workmanship rather then a contractor who will add money to everything single thing he does.

Wildly Boaring

BTW i note your 50k saving is for trades working for cash.

You say 300k plus 50k site vs 400k quote from contractor.

If reality to compare like with like it's 300k + 13.5% + 50k
So 340.5 plus 50 equals a 9500 saving.

So the question is actually is a contractor build or an illegal build cheaper??

ec18

newhouse87 wrote: »

3 of my friends recently done it with no retired builder to oversee, i can see the pros of a contractor but contractors also have you over barrel if they want more money, as they can stop all the trades. If you are not rushing a self build is the only way imo. You save money everywhere compared to a contractor. I do agree its good to have knowledgeable person overseeing things but it would be worth paying 1 retired guy cash to keep eye on workmanship rather then a contractor who will add money to everything single thing he does.

Look fair play to you for saving a bit of cash. But it's disingenuous to be on a public forum saying self builds are the best way to do it and all a contractor will do is try and rip you off. When on your build you're availing of a free PM/contractor.

Are your friends total newbies with no connection to the industries? and they all worked full time jobs while doing it? From lurking on this forum most of the questions come from people who have heard of the mad savings you can make self building. Most likely from someone like yourself, who left at all the little details like having a family member PM and knowing all the trades.

It's unfair to them to make the general statement that all contractors rip you off and that self build is the only way to go when you aren't being up front on how yours was really built.

newhouse87

Wildly Boaring wrote: »

BTW i note your 50k saving is for trades working for cash.

You say 300k plus 50k site vs 400k quote from contractor.

If reality to compare like with like it's 300k + 13.5% + 50k
So 340.5 plus 50 equals a 9500 saving.

So the question is actually is a contractor build or an illegal build cheaper??

no you misunderstood its 300k including 50k site. I reckon 50k is the minimum saving for a 600sq foot house bigger, btw nothing llegall in what im doing paying cash as far as i can tell, its not up to me to make tradesmen pay tax. you seem to have problem with me trying to do this cheaper, don't understand why.

Friend 260k 2000 sq foot house, he then has to furnish and pay site 55K and on tip of that, i reckon i will be done all in for 300k for 2600sq ft, its massive difference and i have much bigger house at the end of it.

newhouse87

ec18 wrote: »

Look fair play to you for saving a bit of cash. But it's disingenuous to be on a public forum saying self builds are the best way to do it and all a contractor will do is try and rip you off. When on your build you're availing of a free PM/contractor.

Are your friends total newbies with no connection to the industries? and they all worked full time jobs while doing it? From lurking on this forum most of the questions come from people who have heard of the mad savings you can make self building. Most likely from someone like yourself, who left at all the little details like having a family member PM and knowing all the trades.

It's unfair to them to make the general statement that all contractors rip you off and that self build is the only way to go when you aren't being up front on how yours was really built.

Yes my friends have no relation to the industry and yes of course all help down jobs, talk to most rural people they do the same . contractors are more expensive i dont think that is up for the debate, people seem to think if they hired a contractor thats what everybody should do and begrudge others saving money by putting in more effort themselves. BTW i have been totally upfront about how mine is being built, hence these arguments.

ec18

newhouse87 wrote: »

Yes my friends have no relation to the industry and yes of course all help down jobs, talk to most rural people they do the same . contractors are more expensive i dont think that is up for the debate, people seem to think if they hired a contractor thats what everybody should do and begrudge others saving money by putting in more effort themselves.

The point you seem to be continually missing is that you have a free contractor/foreman/supervisor. Where as someone who doesn't have that will have to take time off work to do it (which would cost them in salary/time spent etc) or pay someone. Also you aren't putting in more work your relative is.

That's what the point myself and others are trying to make is that the 50K saving you keep referencing is not available to all self builders who don't have access to the knowledge and trades that you have via family links.

And therefore shouldn't be generalised to 'everyone' can make the same savings.

newhouse87

ec18 wrote: »

The point you seem to be continually missing is that you have a free contractor/foreman/supervisor. Where as someone who doesn't have that will have to take time off work to do it (which would cost them in salary/time spent etc) or pay someone. Also you aren't putting in more work your relative is.

That's what the point myself and others are trying to make is that the 50K saving you keep referencing is not available to all self builders who don't have access to the knowledge and trades that you have via family links.

And therefore shouldn't be generalised to 'everyone' can make the same savings.

I have repeatedly said my friends have recently done it working away with no relative to oversee things. Have you done a self build? 100% everybody can make savings by self building.

ec18

newhouse87 wrote: »

I have repeatedly said my friends have recently done it working away with no relative to oversee things. Have you done a self build? 100% everybody can make savings by self building.

did they all save 50K? and the build was perfect? no issues ?

enricoh

sydthebeat wrote: »

youll always here the (embellished) successful self build stories of great savings etc...

but you hardly ever hear the disaster stories of the stress, mistakes, long build time, poor workmanship etc stories... because people never want to admit they were wrong.

successful self builds are all dependent on planning. everything must be planned for, every decision made and fixed before sod is turned, and every nail priced for.

Getting a builder isn't the be all and end all either. My cousin got a top dollar builder to do hers and house had to be pulled apart after a few years.
I self built mine, had a mate that was a bricky n just used lads he knew over the years. Wasn't major hassle but took longer than a builder would, had a mobile home on site so not renting. That was 4 years ago materials and labour have gone up a lot since!
If you have to go googling for trades forget it, yer a lamb to the slaughter!

newhouse87

ec18 wrote: »

did they all save 50K? and the build was perfect? no issues ?

You seem passive aggressive, they all done it for cheaper than a contractor would, contractors never have issues and always perfect builds? Priory hall just of the top of me head, if you have a dodgy contractor all the trades working for him will probably be dodgy and half arssd too.

newhouse87

enricoh wrote: »

Getting a builder isn't the be all and end all either. My cousin got a top dollar builder to do hers and house had to be pulled apart after a few years.
I self built mine, had a mate that was a bricky n just used lads he knew over the years. Wasn't major hassle but took longer than a builder would, had a mobile home on site so not renting. That was 4 years ago materials and labour have gone up a lot since!
If you have to go googling for trades forget it, yer a lamb to the slaughter!

That's the point im getting at, if you know the local tradesman like most rural people do, its as safe if not safer than a contractor for quality work as they don't want their rep to be bad if they do shoddy work.

ec18

newhouse87 wrote: »

You seem passive aggressive, they all done it for cheaper than a contractor would, contractors never have issues and always perfect builds?

I'm not passive aggressive, and I'm not saying that contractors are perfect. Just trying to point out that making a blanket statement that you can save 50K self building when,

• You have a free PM
• Have mates doing it cash in hand
• Have all the costs fixed (whether you do it not by the end)

Is a bit misleading