would you sue ?

Mad_maxx

went sale agreed on a house in Limerick at end of Novemeber on owner occupied house

contracts signed in mid Februrary of this year as owner needed a bit of time to find new place , single man on disability due to " construction accident a decade ago "

guy decided at last minute he did not want to sell despite having signed contracts , his solicitor incredibly coy and referring to how his client did not understand the terms , question is whether i sue , served a completion notice a month ago and its expired yesterday , no engagement whatsoever now , not even from vendors solicitor

i will report the solicitor to the law society if need be as even i wished to just walk away , there is work to be done with respect of getting the contract rescinded , my solicitor reckons the other solicitor is " trying to protect himself as he must think he has been caught badly not reading the fitness of a client "

property was sale agreed at 161 k , worth about 175 k today the way the Limerick market has gone and thats no exaggeration so im out of pocket here no matter what

im sort of wondering if one decided to sue in these circumstances , might a judge rule that the vendor was not compos mentis enough to understand the nature of the agreement , there are degreed of aquired brain injury , many are able to continue working while some are unable to dress themselves , this guy bought this house in question in 2013 and i met him when the house was being surveyed , had i not been foretold in advance , i would barely have known he has ABI

his reasons for doing a U turn here are that the market got ahead of him and he was unable to find an apartment to replace his house in the part of town he wanted , its a fair explanation but he did sign a contract

i guess im wondering if a perhaps two year civil action would be very costly for me if the guy had no money , i dont think hes merely " gazumping " me so its probably a case of a vulnerable person having a change of heart

3DataModem

Your solicitor should be able to answer these questions. A seller signing and not completing is a very very bad precedent for the law society to let pass by unsanctioned.

Mad_maxx

3DataModem wrote: »

Your solicitor should be able to answer these questions. A seller signing and not completing is a very very bad precedent for the law society to let pass by unsanctioned.

my solicitor said the vendor would be likely to end up suing his own solicitor in the event i pursued the vendor to court and this she reckons is why the vendors solicitor has gone to ground ?

Claw Hammer

Mad_maxx wrote: »

my solicitor said the vendor would be likely to end up suing his own solicitor in the event i pursued the vendor to court and this she reckons is why the vendors solicitor has gone to ground ?

The man had a solicitor acting for him who should not have taken instructions if his client was not of sound mind.
Sue away.

ohnonotgmail

Mad_maxx wrote: »

my solicitor said the vendor would be likely to end up suing his own solicitor in the event i pursued the vendor to court and this she reckons is why the vendors solicitor has gone to ground ?

that wouldn't stop me from suing.

Mad_maxx

I'm very much inclined to sue but not out of principal, don't want a mere phyrric victory, concern over whether a judge might say " law is on your side MM but the vendor can't be made homeless " ?

ohnonotgmail

Mad_maxx wrote: »

I'm very much inclined to sue but not out of principal, don't want a mere phyrric victory, concern over whether a judge might say " law is on your side MM but the vendor can't be made homeless " ?

If they pulled because they were not competent to enter into a contract in the first place that is a mistake by their solicitor. Solicitors have malpractice insurance. I would be asking my solicitor if that is an angle worth pursuing.

Wabbit Ears

So what is the endgame? what outcome are you suing for?

Cos youre right, taking ownership and ejecting someone on disability probably isn't a runner.

Best you can aim for is that you take ownership and the guy lives there with a life interest in the properly which SUCKS.

You wont realistically recoup any losses or costs but Id advocate cutting your losses and walking away from this one.

iColdFusion

Don't think anything good will come from it OP, cant say it will be fun times for you living in the house when the neighbors find out you made the disabled owner homeless, no winning for you in that scenario no matter what the law says or who messed up, imagine trying to get planning for an extension, etc

Is there any hope of giving the owner more time to find somewhere else and delaying you taking ownership?

At a bare minimum id be making it very clear you will go down the legal route if it turns out the house is sold to someone else in the near future.

frozenfrozen

he doesn't necessarily need to forcefully move in but he has losses now between time and fees and how the market has moved.

I think OP should be reimbursed by the other side

Strumms

Because you have a disability, that doesn’t enable you to be excused from your responsibilities in life...

The op shouldn’t be inconvenienced in the manner of which they are.

If the owner decided to sell without having a place to go , disability or otherwise, that’s on them... a disability doesn’t enable you to jack people around.

frozenfrozen

frozenfrozen wrote: »

he doesn't necessarily need to forcefully move in but he has losses now between time and fees and how the market has moved.

I think OP should be reimbursed by the other side

This would be my line of thinking, too.


If I am a magician and I sign a contract for €100 to entertain politicians at a Dail event, but then decide I couldn't be assed doing it, and a replacement magician at shorter notice is €150, shouldn't I be liable for the extra €50 the Dail had to spend, considering I signed a legally binding contract saying I would be there?

frozenfrozen

the cynical part of me thinks someone has whispered into that mans ear about values going up and so he wants to go about selling it at the higher price

and you can be sure if prices had gone down they'd be holding the OP to his agreed price, legal guns blazing

drunkmonkey

frozenfrozen wrote: »

and how the market has moved.

Time and fees maybe the two solicitors can work something out, as for the market movement I doubt you could claim compensation for that even trying to quantify how much that actual house moved could be tricky.

Strumms

Hit him with a law suit.. youve entererd into a legal agreement and he needs to stick to his part of the agreement. He didnt.

Juwwi

Whats happening with regard your solicitor OP l presume they will still want paying in full if the sale doesn't go through .

Mad_maxx

iColdFusion wrote: »

Don't think anything good will come from it OP, cant say it will be fun times for you living in the house when the neighbors find out you made the disabled owner homeless, no winning for you in that scenario no matter what the law says or who messed up, imagine trying to get planning for an extension, etc

Is there any hope of giving the owner more time to find somewhere else and delaying you taking ownership?

At a bare minimum id be making it very clear you will go down the legal route if it turns out the house is sold to someone else in the near future.

i had no intention of living in this property , plan was to enter into twenty year lease with local authority , already have another house in a ten year lease since 2018

Mad_maxx

frozenfrozen wrote: »

he doesn't necessarily need to forcefully move in but he has losses now between time and fees and how the market has moved.

I think OP should be reimbursed by the other side

indeed but the solicitor wont even engage , never mind the vendor

listermint

Mad_maxx wrote: »

indeed but the solicitor wont even engage , never mind the vendor

Probably because they know they are in trouble best not to say a thing .


You are out of pocket here. I'd suggest getting your solicitors best advice.

Mad_maxx

Juwwi wrote: »

Whats happening with regard your solicitor OP l presume they will still want paying in full if the sale doesn't go through .

has not yet been discussed but considering everything was finished bar closing , you would surely be talking at least a grand plus vat ?

1500 + vat is what they have always charged me in the past for sales or purchases

El Weirdo

Deleted User wrote: »

If I am a magician and I sign a contract for €100 to entertain politicians at a Dail event, but then decide I couldn't be assed doing it, and a replacement magician at shorter notice is €150, shouldn't I be liable for the extra €50 the Dail had to spend, considering I signed a legally binding contract saying I would be there?

Oddly specific.

jimmycrackcorm

Mad_maxx wrote:

guy decided at last minute he did not want to sell despite having signed contracts , his solicitor incredibly coy and referring to how his client did not understand the terms , question is whether i sue , served a completion notice a month ago and its expired yesterday , no engagement whatsoever now , not even from vendors solicitor

I think you've nothing to lose by at least going down the legal route to ascertain completion. You're taking the word of the other solicitor that his client did not understand. I suspect that's a lie as the solicitor should have caught that.

It's more likely that the vendor is holding out for more money in a later sale.

Mad_maxx

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

I think you've nothing to lose by at least going down the legal route to ascertain completion. You're taking the word of the other solicitor that his client did not understand. I suspect that's a lie as the solicitor should have caught that.

It's more likely that the vendor is holding out for more money in a later sale.

i cant say for sure what their motives are , its probably not at all relevant , the contract is either enforceable or not given the circumstances

suppose you have to ask yourself how much rent you would loose over two years as thats how long it would take to reach court , I.E ,walk away and buy something else

How much is avoiding the bad publicity of being on the front page of the Limerick Leader worth to you OP? Not joking btw, a story about a buy-to-let landlord suing to evict a disabled person from their house isn't going to paint you in the best light.

Not so sure the other guy can sue his solicitor either tbh, unless his cognitive issues are extremely obvious. Iirc (and I stand to be corrected on this) it's a legal test over capacity in these scenarios, not a medical one. if the solicitor can convince the Court the other side appeared to have sufficient capacity to enter into these contracts then they are in the clear (again, if I'm wrong feel free to correct me). You said yourself the other side seemed fine to you.

Even if you win, you'll probably end up winning a financial sum from a person with no ability to pay you (and a Court isn't going to force them to sell their house to pay you). So how do you recover your costs and your compensation?

Mad_maxx

Deleted User wrote: »

How much is avoiding the bad publicity of being on the front page of the Limerick Leader worth to you OP? Not joking btw, a story about a buy-to-let landlord suing to evict a disabled person from their house isn't going to paint you in the best light.

Not so sure the other guy can sue his solicitor either tbh, unless his cognitive issues are extremely obvious. Iirc (and I stand to be corrected on this) it's a legal test over capacity in these scenarios, not a medical one. if the solicitor can convince the Court the other side appeared to have sufficient capacity to enter into these contracts then they are in the clear (again, if I'm wrong feel free to correct me). You said yourself the other side seemed fine to you.

Even if you win, you'll probably end up winning a financial sum from a person with no ability to pay you (and a Court isn't going to force them to sell their house to pay you). So how do you recover your costs and your compensation?

they would be selling their house to me so would be in receipt of money

Appearing in the local paper would not cost me a thought as I dont live in Limerick

as for them appearing fine when i met them , surely the vendor would be relying on the court believing they were not fine in order to win ? ,my believing they were fine would hurt the vendor in court as their defense relies on persuading a court that they werent capable of understanding what a contract is , the vendor might not relish appearing in the Limerick Leader and stating them selves to be non compos mentis ?

Mad_maxx

Mad_maxx wrote: »

they would be selling their house to me so would be in receipt of money

Appearing in the local paper would not cost me a thought as I dont live in Limerick

as for them appearing fine when i met them , surely the vendor would be relying on the court believing they were not fine in order to win ? ,my believing they were fine would hurt the vendor in court as their defense relies on persuading a court that they werent capable of understanding what a contract is , the vendor might not relish appearing in the Limerick Leader and stating them selves to be non compos mentis ?

I would be surprised if a Court forced a disabled person to sell their home tbh. Easier option is to award you financial compensation you'll never be able to collect, imo, but I don't work in this area tbf.

Calhoun

Deleted User wrote: »

How much is avoiding the bad publicity of being on the front page of the Limerick Leader worth to you OP? Not joking btw, a story about a buy-to-let landlord suing to evict a disabled person from their house isn't going to paint you in the best light.

Not so sure the other guy can sue his solicitor either tbh, unless his cognitive issues are extremely obvious. Iirc (and I stand to be corrected on this) it's a legal test over capacity in these scenarios, not a medical one. if the solicitor can convince the Court the other side appeared to have sufficient capacity to enter into these contracts then they are in the clear (again, if I'm wrong feel free to correct me). You said yourself the other side seemed fine to you.

Even if you win, you'll probably end up winning a financial sum from a person with no ability to pay you (and a Court isn't going to force them to sell their house to pay you). So how do you recover your costs and your compensation?

Seems to be a bit alarmist is it not, way to much personal bias getting in the way because the individual is disabled.

There is more to selling a house than just contacting a solicitor, the seller seemed to be in enough of sound mind to source an estate agent and all in between.

If anything the OP should be put right for their costs and there will be costs.

Mad_maxx

Deleted User wrote: »

I would be surprised if a Court forced a disabled person to sell their home tbh. Easier option is to award you financial compensation you'll never be able to collect, imo, but I don't work in this area tbf.

the solicitor representing the vendor would come across pretty poorly for having allowed the vendor to sign a contract if it turns out a court decides they were unfit to do so ?

the vendor would probably have an incredibly strong case against the solicitor ?

anyway , I need to get some sort of compensation even i dont pursue things further , vendor appears to think they can walk away scott free , as does the solicitor representing them , 10% would seem reasonable

on that note , can i report the solicitor to the law society ? , perhaps you can only report a solicitor who you employed to represent you ?

actually having scanned the law society page , it appears you need to be a client of a solicitor who,m you have an issue with ?

Calhoun

Mad_maxx wrote: »

the solicitor representing the vendor would come across pretty poorly for having allowed the vendor to sign a contract if it turns out a court decides they were unfit to do so ?

the vendor would probably have an incredibly strong case against the solicitor ?

anyway , I need to get some sort of compensation even i dont pursue things further , vendor appears to think they can walk away scott free , as does the solicitor representing them

on that note , can i report the solicitor to the law society ? , perhaps you can only report a solicitor who you employed to represent you ?

Pretty much either there is a grand conspiracy where estate agents and solicitor coerced this disabled person the whole way along or the person themselves changed their mind and they are using his disability as an excuse for it.

Either way you are the victim in this case and someone on the otherside should be held responsible.

You might not get the house but you should be at least put financially right and i would be raising this with the law society. Not only for your benefit but if this was a case of a smooth talking solicitor your helping someone who cannot speak for themselves.

Mad_maxx

Mad_maxx wrote: »

the solicitor representing the vendor would come across pretty poorly for having allowed the vendor to sign a contract if it turns out a court decides they were unfit to do so ?

the vendor would probably have an incredibly strong case against the solicitor ?

anyway , I need to get some sort of compensation even i dont pursue things further , vendor appears to think they can walk away scott free , as does the solicitor representing them , 10% would seem reasonable

on that note , can i report the solicitor to the law society ? , perhaps you can only report a solicitor who you employed to represent you ?

I imagine some sort of fudge would be reached, that the Court will be shown medical evidence the vendor's solicitor didn't have access to (and couldn't be expected to have access to) etc. So the vendor won't be competent but the solicitor will be covered from noticing it.

It's your money to spend at the end of the day, spend it as you wish, but if I were acting for you I'd ask for money upfront as i don't think you'll recover it from the vendor.

Afaik you now complain to the LSRA for this sort of stuff, pretty sure you can complain the vendor's solicitor.

Mad_maxx

Calhoun wrote: »

Pretty much either there is a grand conspiracy where estate agents and solicitor coerced this disabled person the whole way along or the person themselves changed their mind and they are using his disability as an excuse for it.

Either way you are the victim in this case and someone on the otherside should be held responsible.

You might not get the house but you should be at least put financially right and i would be raising this with the law society. Not only for your benefit but if this was a case of a smooth talking solicitor your helping someone who cannot speak for themselves.

i cant see my own solicitor giving me any help with the idea of reporting a colleague to the law society , bar the doctor fraternity , no bigger clique exists out there

this seems to suggest you need to be a client of an offending solicitor to make a report ?

https://www.lawsociety.ie/Public/Complaints-against-solicitors/

Calhoun

Mad_maxx wrote: »

i cant see my own solicitor giving me any help with the idea of reporting a colleague to the law society , bar the doctor fraternity , no bigger clique exists out there

this seems to suggest you need to be a client of an offending solicitor to make a report ?

https://www.lawsociety.ie/Public/Complaints-against-solicitors/

From the look of it yes but it would be worth having a word with your solicitor to see what they think.

Mad_maxx

Calhoun wrote: »

From the look of it yes but it would be worth having a word with your solicitor to see what they think.

il ask them if only a client can make a complaint , i cant see my solicitor approving of doing such a thing , not that that would stop me

solicitors are a terrible clique

ohnonotgmail

Mad_maxx wrote: »

i cant see my own solicitor giving me any help with the idea of reporting a colleague to the law society , bar the doctor fraternity , no bigger clique exists out there

this seems to suggest you need to be a client of an offending solicitor to make a report ?

https://www.lawsociety.ie/Public/Complaints-against-solicitors/

your first port of call is not a complaint though you can do that if you wish. I made a suggestion as to how you might proceed. Give that a go first.

https://www.lsra.ie/for-consumers/making-a-complaint/

Any person may make a complaint about alleged misconduct on the part of a legal practitioner

Claw Hammer

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

your first port of call is not a complaint though you can do that if you wish. I made a suggestion as to how you might proceed. Give that a go first.

https://www.lsra.ie/for-consumers/making-a-complaint/

There are no grounds to make a complaint about the other solicitor yet. The o/p needs to sue for specific performance and if a defence of lack of capacity is raised, then there will be grounds.

ohnonotgmail

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

If they pulled because they were not competent to enter into a contract in the first place that is a mistake by their solicitor. Solicitors have malpractice insurance. I would be asking my solicitor if that is an angle worth pursuing.

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

your first port of call is not a complaint though you can do that if you wish. I made a suggestion as to how you might proceed. Give that a go first.

https://www.lsra.ie/for-consumers/making-a-complaint/

Claw Hammer wrote: »

There are no grounds to make a complaint about the other solicitor yet. The o/p needs to sue for specific performance and if a defence of lack of capacity is raised, then there will be grounds.

is that not what i said?

vandriver

How are you making the poor disabled man homeless if he'll have €161k in his pocket?

Claw Hammer

vandriver wrote: »

How are you making the poor disabled man homeless if he'll have €161k in his pocket?

Is this the house with the "funny auctioneer"?

Mad_maxx

Claw Hammer wrote: »

Is this the house with the "funny auctioneer"?

You've a particularly caustic sense of humour Claw Hammer, " funny auctioneer "

No ,that was a different part of the country, was helping my mother buy a house ,I'm pleased to say she bought in the end ,auctioneer was both funny and charming, not to mention gorgeous for a fifty something

Didn't appreciate at the time how strong the market was last autumn, beautiful house and worth every cent

Tails142

I would be going after him for your costs anyway, I'm guessing your solicitor isn't doing this for free.

If you think he's not gazumping you and it's genuinely some aul brain damaged lad being flighty and he couldn't find an apartment to move into then I think ethically you should just try cover your costs and move on.

I think it would be a bit hard nosed to force the matter through.

tscul32

If he was proved to be of diminished capacity or whatever, could a judge be able to restrict future sales, even for a year, just in case the plan was just to sell for a higher price.

Claw Hammer

Mad_maxx wrote: »

,I'm pleased to say she bought in the end ,auctioneer was both funny and charming, not to mention gorgeous for a fifty something

Yes, but has she any money?

ohnonotgmail

tscul32 wrote: »

If he was proved to be of finished capacity or whatever, could a judge be able to restrict future sales, even for a year, just in case the plan was just to sell for a higher price.

Finished capacity?

MarkR

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

Finished capacity?

Diminished capacity I'd say.

Mad_maxx

Tails142 wrote: »

I would be going after him for your costs anyway, I'm guessing your solicitor isn't doing this for free.

If you think he's not gazumping you and it's genuinely some aul brain damaged lad being flighty and he couldn't find an apartment to move into then I think ethically you should just try cover your costs and move on.

I think it would be a bit hard nosed to force the matter through.

I'd be content with circa 10 K ,2 k to cover solicitor

Claw Hammer

Mad_maxx wrote: »

I'd be content with circa 10 K ,2 k to cover solicitor

Who do you expect to give you that?

Mad_maxx

Claw Hammer wrote: »

Who do you expect to give you that?

If the vendor was given a choice of compensation of that amount or a forced sale via the courts

Treppen

tscul32 wrote: »

If he was proved to be of diminished capacity or whatever, could a judge be able to restrict future sales, even for a year, just in case the plan was just to sell for a higher price.

I think the diminished capacity, compos mentis thing is all just a merry ruse.

Seller's solicitor is hanging his hat on some vague tripe about "his solicitor incredibly coy and referring to how his client did not understand the terms ,".

That's nothing to do with you OP.
Your being dicked around by the seller or the solicitor, that is for certain.
Either way , you're being dicked around.

Mad_maxx

Treppen wrote: »

I think the diminished capacity, compos mentis thing is all just a merry ruse.

Seller's solicitor is hanging his hat on some vague tripe about "his solicitor incredibly coy and referring to how his client did not understand the terms ,".

That's nothing to do with you OP.
Your being dicked around by the seller or the solicitor, that is for certain.
Either way , you're being dicked around.

clearly but i dont want to spend two years going to court ( plus fees ) and not only meet a judge who decides the vendor can keep the house but also as he is on disability , doesnt have to pay my legal fees

Id sue for sure if i thought it was a dead cert of going my way , obviously no one can say with absolute certainty how a court case might go

Claw Hammer

Mad_maxx wrote: »

If the vendor was given a choice of compensation of that amount or a forced sale via the courts

How is that going to happen?

Mad_maxx

Claw Hammer wrote: »

How is that going to happen?

well for instance , my solicitor ( last time i spoke to her ) told me she was going to phone the vendors solicitor to see what they might bring to the table if they were planning on ignoring the completion notice .

according to her , you would not put it in writing that you were willing to accept 10k compensation but might suggest it off the record