Why is safe electric necesssary ?

2011

aido79 wrote: »

Without a system like safe electric anyone who has even a little bit of knowledge of electrical work could "have a go" at it as happened back in the day as well.

I think you have misread my post, I would not support unqualified people having a go either.
What I have described resulted in 100% independent inspection by a technically competent person.
In today's world this could be Safe Electric.

I remember wiring a milking parlour as a qualified electrcian but not a REC.
I paid RECI to inspect my work, that is how I got it certifed.
Would you have an issue with that?

If anything goes wrong with any of this type of work where there is no test certificates or proof that the work was actually carried out by a qualified electrician there is no come back.

Again, I think you have misunderstood.
Paperwork is essential, the ESB gave us this for free at the time.

Insurance companies will not pay out if there is a fire in an uncertified installation.

I do not believe this is correct. There are installations up and down the country that have no certification. We often get posters on this forum stating that the home they live in was wired in the 1970's (or thereabouts).

Bedsides, I think you have misread my post.
The work we did back then was:
1) Certified by us and then inspected by the ESB.
2) Had a completion certificate + test record sheets (by us).
3) The work was carried out and tested by a qualified person (us).
4) The paperwork was signed off by the installer who tested (us).

I was just the general dogs body / made the tea etc... I only did basic labouring.
I did not personally test or connect anything (I was just a kid).

You're right being a REC doesn't make someone a better electrician but having to put their signature on the cert and taking full responsibility for the work is an incentive to do it right.

Back in the day, we still had to sign the certificates and needed to be qualified, so no change there.

aido79

2011 wrote: »

I think you have misread my post, I would not support unqualified people having a go either.
What I have described resulted in 100% independent inspection by a technically competent person.
In today's world this could be Safe Electric.

I remember wiring a milking parlour as a qualified electrcian but not a REC.
I paid RECI to inspect my work, that is how I got it certifed.
Would you have an issue with that?



Again, I think you have misunderstood.
Paperwork is essential, the ESB gave us this for free at the time.



I do not believe this is correct. There are installations up and down the country that have no certification. We often get posters on this forum stating that the home they live in was wired in the 1970's (or thereabouts).

Bedsides, I think you have misread my post.
The work we did back then was:
1) Certified by us and then inspected by the ESB.
2) Had a completion certificate + test record sheets (by us).
3) The work was carried out and tested by a qualified person (us).
4) The paperwork was signed off by the installer who tested (us).

I was just the general dogs body / made the tea etc... I only did basic labouring.
I did not personally test or connect anything (I was just a kid).




Back in the day, we still had to sign the certificates and needed to be qualified, so no change there.

I suppose I'm just really talking about the handymen that have a go at electrical work with no paperwork or testing involved.
I would have no problem with a qualified electrician doing work on any installation as long as it tested properly. This is something that a lot of the time when electricians and apprentices do nixers. I would be in favour of allowing a REC test and certify work done by a qualified electrician as used to be common but is now not allowed.

I would imagine insurance companies take into consideration that the wiring in older houses may not be up to current specifications when calculating policies but I just can't imagine them paying out if electrical work that was never properly tested and certified was the cause of a house fire.

The older system you are describing worked well and I think safe electric is probably a step too far in the limitations it places on what a qualified electrician can and can't do if they are not registered but I think something needed to be done to try to eliminate some of the cowboy work that was done previously.

2011

aido79 wrote: »

I would imagine insurance companies take into consideration that the wiring in older houses may not be up to current specifications when calculating policies but I just can't imagine them paying out if electrical work that was never properly tested and certified was the cause of a house fire.

I bought my home in 2006, I have yet to receive a completion certificate. This is despite requesting the certificate directly from the electrical contractor and raising the issue with RECI when the REC refused. It is the same for everyone else in my estate. Each house was wired with a total of 2 socket circuits :eek: but that's another story.

Most people that buy a second hand house would not be able to tell you who wired it never mind find the completion certificate for it. This applies in particular to houses that were built in the eighties or before.

aido79

2011 wrote: »

I bought my home in 2006, I have yet to receive a completion certificate. This is despite requesting the certificate directly from the electrical contractor and raising the issue with RECI when the REC refused. It is the same for everyone else in my estate. Each house was wired with a total of 2 socket circuits :eek: but that's another story.

Most people that buy a second hand house would not be able to tell you who wired it never mind find the completion certificate for it. This applies in particular to houses that were built in the eighties or before.

I think you've just answered the question in the thread title there.
How many people who bought houses that were built after safe electric was established would not have RECI certs for their homes do you think?

2011

aido79 wrote: »

I think you've just answered the question in the thread title there.

I think I answered before this, but I was entitled to a completion cert before Safe Electric existed.

How many people who bought houses that were built after safe electric was established would not have RECI certs for their homes do you think?

I have no idea, I would like to think that this problem has reduced.

I think that the significant change since is that now an unsatisfactory response from RECI / Safe Electric can be raised the issue with the CRU.
When I was having issues with my house that option was not open to me.

Having said that I still think that Safe Electric is a good idea, the thread has just veered into other areas.

alan4cult

I have no issue with Safe Electric but I think the definition of minor works needs to be cleared up.

The definition is somewhat vague and allows like for like replacements. This could be actually include a lot of handyman jobs e.g. new light, new light switch, new socket.
I mean a like for like replacement can go wrong e.g. earth not looped to next socket, dropped neutral.

Also POE/IOT wiring is becoming very common and although lower and DC voltage it may involve overlap with existing AC circuits. Is replacing a light switch with a WiFI switch allowed, how about a socket or WiFi controlled relay and you can't say these are specialist items anymore.

maxamillius

knipex wrote: »

Not all electricans wire houses. Many spend their entire careers doing "motor control etc."

I served my time as an electrician and the only time I wired a socket or a light switch was in phase 2 and 5 or when my employer made me demonstrate before signing off that section of my handbook, and when I installed one in my own house.

I'm far from unique guys (in the non gender specific meaning) served their time in the ESB working as lines men on high voltage. Guys building panels, working facilities or industrial wiring, building panels, in automation houses, machine tool maintenance etc..

Most of my career (bar 3 years when I did some high voltage panel work) was (and to an extent still is) low voltage controls, automation, signalling etc..

In fact when the new apprenticeship launched back in the mid 90's it was more focused on the "motor control's etc" but the failure rates and demand from unions and construction industry rapidly refocused it. Unions also fought against splitting the trade at the time..

No offence but domestic wiring is only the a small part of the trade, and to be honest if that's all apprentices we're trained to do it wouldn't require 4 full years..

Two years (year 3 and 4) wiring motor control panels in FAS is too much in my opinion. Why focus on it when the electrical industry is so diverse? Yes domestic is only a small part, but testing and verification spans the entire industry so why put so much effort into motor control, which to be fair is only another small part.

ESB linesmen are a completely different kettle of fish and again would have no particular use for motor control.

Anyway my point is there should be more of a focus on testing and verification, there may be now but there wasn’t when I served my time.

Bruthal.

aido79 wrote: »

I think that may be part of it but I don't believe it was the main reason. The amount of revenue missed out on would be negligible.
Do you honestly believe it doesn't make homes safer by ensuring electrical work is done and tested by registered contractors rather than handymen?

Are plumbers still wiring entire domestic heating control systems these days? I dont keep up with it now as im little more than a handyman myself at this stage.

2011

Bruthal. wrote: »

Are plumbers still wiring entire domestic heating control systems these days? I dont keep up with it now as im little more than a handyman myself at this stage.

Yes, and they are permitted to.

Bruthal.

2011 wrote: »

Yes, and they are permitted to.

Revenue it is so.

aido79

2011 wrote: »

I think I answered before this, but I was entitled to a completion cert before Safe Electric existed.



I have no idea, I would like to think that this problem has reduced.

I think that the significant change since is that now an unsatisfactory response from RECI / Safe Electric can be raised the issue with the CRU.
When I was having issues with my house that option was not open to me.

Having said that I still think that Safe Electric is a good idea, the thread has just veered into other areas.

I think it was poor form for the REC not to issue you with a certificate and would hope that safe electric is a step towards ensuring that certificates are issued when anything other than minor works is undertaken especially wiring a whole house.

aido79

Bruthal. wrote: »

Revenue it is so.

I honestly don't believe so. How much do you think revenue make from safe electric? I imagine that the amount would be negligible in the grand scheme of things compared to what they previously would have made pre safe electric.

I think it's more a case of the person doing the work taking responsibility for it legally.

I have no idea about the plumber installing wiring for a heating system but maybe someone else can provide information on whether or not they have to supply a certificate for the work they do.

Bruthal.

aido79 wrote: »

I honestly don't believe so. How much do you think revenue make from safe electric? I imagine that the amount would be negligible in the grand scheme of things compared to what they previously would have made pre safe electric.

I think it's more a case of the person doing the work taking responsibility for it legally.

I have no idea about the plumber installing wiring for a heating system but maybe someone else can provide information on whether or not they have to supply a certificate for the work they do.

No testing required. I guess once the REC tests as far as the spur, it doesnt matter who installs what after it. It will be safe then. I wonder why plumbers can do that (not minor work in terms of size) but a qualified person cant change an MCB in his own DB. Safety I guess.

I suppose the fact legally I should call in a REC to change an MCB on my DB is safer than me doing it also.

The safest of all was, person installs, and independent person inspects after.

The majority of domestic (nixer) installations were likely done by qualified people, cash in hand. Im sure it was more than a negligible amount.

aido79

Bruthal. wrote: »

No testing required. I guess once the REC tests as far as the spur, it doesnt matter who installs what after it. It will be safe then. I wonder why plumbers can do that (not minor work in terms of size) but a qualified person cant change an MCB in his own DB. Safety I guess.

I suppose the fact legally I should call in a REC to change an MCB on my DB is safer than me doing it also.

The safest of all was, person installs, and independent person inspects after.

The majority of domestic (nixer) installations were likely done by qualified people, cash in hand. Im sure it was more than a negligible amount.

It doesn't make sense really does it that a plumber can do more electrical work in a house than a qualified electrician.

Every trade has people doing nixers and that will always be the case. Domestic installations done as nixers are rarely done for huge amounts of money when the cost of the gear is taken out of it so I would still say the amount is negligible.

Bruthal.

aido79 wrote: »

It doesn't make sense really does it that a plumber can do more electrical work in a house than a qualified electrician.

Not if safety was the primary motive.

Every trade has people doing nixers and that will always be the case. Domestic installations done as nixers are rarely done for huge amounts of money when the cost of the gear is taken out of it so I would still say the amount is negligible.

Negligible is a relative term. The state doesnt like losing any of its its revenue streams, no matter how negligible a particular source is.

maxamillius

Had my boiler replaced recently, Plumber did the internal wiring of the boiler and left flex out of burner and pump for me to connect to mains.

Switched on and burner didn’t fire, I opened up the thermostat on the boiler and there was a link missing and the connections to the thermostats were an absolute disaster.

Plumber was a very capable plumber and I wouldn’t knock him, however there is absolutely no reason a plumber should be allowed carry out any sort of electrical terminations, ahead of me, a qualified electrician (not a REC).

You could go around the houses with this discussion, I do think there has to be a process in place whereby installations are verified to be safe, but also in the same breath I say, I know my capabilities and my limits, if a family member or friend asks for help I wouldn’t say no.

Although I must say I do like telling the vast majority that I cant help them as I’m not a REC. it’s a great excuse to get out of doing nixers, which I absolutely hate doing!!!!

2011

aido79 wrote: »

It doesn't make sense really does it that a plumber can do more electrical work in a house than a qualified electrician.

This is not the case. Anyone can do “minor works”. It is not limited to plumbers. I’m not saying I agree with this I’m say that is how it is. I emailed CER (now the CRU) about this years ago. A link to the email and the official response is in the forum charter.

maxamillius

2011 wrote: »

This is not the case. Anyone can do “minor works”. It is not limited to plumbers. I’m not saying I agree with this I’m say that is how it is. I emailed CER (now the CRU) about this years ago. A link to the email and the official response is in the forum charter.

Apologies yes I stand corrected on that, I suppose it goes for anyone doing minor works. Not much difference in All reality changing a socket and changing an MCB (domestic single phase), both require correct terminations and safe isolation before working on,so i don’t really see why “minor” works can be undertaken by anyone.

aido79

2011 wrote: »

This is not the case. Anyone can do “minor works”. It is not limited to plumbers. I’m not saying I agree with this I’m say that is how it is. I emailed CER (now the CRU) about this years ago. A link to the email and the official response is in the forum charter.

Sorry I phrased that wrong. So in terms of minor works is an unregistered electrician allowed to connect anything to a spur as long as they're not touching the board?

aido79

maxamillius wrote: »

Had my boiler replaced recently, Plumber did the internal wiring of the boiler and left flex out of burner and pump for me to connect to mains.

Switched on and burner didn’t fire, I opened up the thermostat on the boiler and there was a link missing and the connections to the thermostats were an absolute disaster.

Plumber was a very capable plumber and I wouldn’t knock him, however there is absolutely no reason a plumber should be allowed carry out any sort of electrical terminations, ahead of me, a qualified electrician (not a REC).

You could go around the houses with this discussion, I do think there has to be a process in place whereby installations are verified to be safe, but also in the same breath I say, I know my capabilities and my limits, if a family member or friend asks for help I wouldn’t say no.

Although I must say I do like telling the vast majority that I cant help them as I’m not a REC. it’s a great excuse to get out of doing nixers, which I absolutely hate doing!!!!

There really should be some proper training for plumbers if they are going to undertake this kind of work.
I used to work in Australia where all electricians need to be licenced whether contractors or not. A plumber there can apply for a restricted electrical licence to allow them to do work like this but they need to do a course to get the licence.

I also use that excuse to avoid doing nixers as well. They really aren't worth it.

Bruthal.

maxamillius wrote: »

Apologies yes I stand corrected on that, I suppose it goes for anyone doing minor works. Not much difference in All reality changing a socket and changing an MCB (domestic single phase), both require correct terminations and safe isolation before working on,so i don’t really see why “minor” works can be undertaken by anyone.

The difference with working on the DB is, by restricting it, you ensure only RECs can do most installation work. Its a sort of border which only RECs can cross legally. It is no safer for a REC to work on one than a non rec qualified person.

Most working on them are probably not RECs themselves, but their employees.

As others said, it is great for now avoiding all things electrical in houses when asked.

I think it's safer install a new radial than running spurs.

2011

aido79 wrote: »

Sorry I phrased that wrong. So in terms of minor works is an unregistered electrician allowed to connect anything to a spur as long as they're not touching the board?

Essentially yes and not just an unregistered electrician, anyone at all can and it can be any number of points too. See link.

aido79

2011 wrote: »

Essentially yes and not just an unregistered electrician, anyone at all can and it can be any number of points too. See link.

Thanks for that. It's a bit of an eye opener and doesn't make a lot of sense why anyone can connect whatever they want to a spur but a qualified electrician can still only do minor works. My biggest problem with it would be the fact that they are under no obligation to test their wiring.

alan4cult

I think minor works needs a cleanup. A spur can covers a lot of ground and like for like replacement covers practically every light switch, ceiling light and socket.

Junglejoe

alan4cult wrote: »

I think minor works needs a cleanup. A spur can covers a lot of ground and like for like replacement covers practically every light switch, ceiling light and socket.

The spur always seeme an issue alright because of the amount of wiring and equipment that can be connected load side

And of course adding fixed wiring without testing(extra socket)

How much work is being driven into the black market now with increasing regulation ?

Black Market?!¿

Right to Repair!



I support darwinism more than the HSA.

Besides, it'll never work what's the difference between a spur and a plugboard other than a fuse and the terminations being on a different side of a socket plate?

You can make anything compliant with a PAT test sticker and a 13A plug.

Junglejoe

The wiring on the load side of a spur can be extensive