Apart from the lane hogging bus, who is more at fault here?

Jeremy Sproket

On a 3 laned stretch of motorway, there is a bus driving in the middle lane (double decker so driving at 65 km/h).

A car approaches from behind in the leftmost lane at the 80 km/h speed limit.

Coming up behind the car is a lorry.

The car carefully overtakes the bus at 80 km/h and no more, as to exceed this speed would be extremely dangerous and life threatening.

When the car is overtaking the bus, the lorry increases to an extremely dangers and reckless speed (90 km/h which is the max for the lorry and simply undertakes the bus as the car is overtaking it correctly).

When the car returns to the leftmost lane, it is smashed into by the lorry driving at a disgraceful speed.

Who is at fault?

The lorry imo.

Witcher

Car driver failed to observe before they entered the left lane. You can't just fly across into a lane.

Jeremy Sproket

You also can't undertake on the left or speed. It's a crime.

At least it is in my country (Sweden). The driving is poor here. Some cars don't have nearside mirrors btw (some vintage cars).

MacDanger

The lorry driver breaks the rules of the road by undertaking (and possibly dangerous driving) but the driver of the car bears primary responsibility for the crash imo; the earlier infringements by the lorry driver don't absolve the car driver of his responsibilities to check the left lane before entering it

_Kaiser_

This is why the undertaking that is regularly advocated for on here is an issue. This is the result.

All three at fault really..

- Truck driver for undertaking the bus
- Car driver for not using proper observation
- Bus driver in the middle lane (double-decker on a 3 lane road.. bet I can guess the colour!)

MacDanger

OSI wrote: »

You can legally undertake if the traffic is moving slowly. A bus doing a little over half the speed limit is moving slowly. A HGV is also not allowed in the outermost lane so the safest way for it proceed is to remain in it's lane doing the speed it is legally allowed to do.

The car driver however, driving significantly below the limit and moving across 3 lanes without checking their mirrors or blind spots is a death waiting to happen and has absolutely no one to blame for other than themselves.

Are they not allowed out for overtaking? Didn't know that

Staplor

Sounds like the car didn't look to see if it was safe to move into the left lane, or perhaps the car swung wildly across the 2 lanes, the bus blocking the view of the inside lane?

_Kaiser_

OSI wrote: »

You can legally undertake if the traffic is moving slowly. A bus doing a little over half the speed limit is moving slowly.

Nope.

Slow in the context that's intended refers to congested bumper to bumper traffic, not traffic moving at between 60-90 km/h

How this isn't understood is beyond me.

Pintman Paddy Losty

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

Nope.

Slow in the context that's intended refers to congested bumper to bumper traffic, not traffic moving at between 60-90 km/h

How this isn't understood is beyond me.

Wrong.

cpoh1

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

Nope.

Slow in the context that's intended refers to congested bumper to bumper traffic, not traffic moving at between 60-90 km/h

How this isn't understood is beyond me.

Its not understood because its not explicit. the other persons context and meaning of slow moving may be every bit as relevant and correct as yours. Have spoken to traffic cops on this and even they are not 100% clear.

Either way truck is not at fault for the collision. Driver who entered his lane is.

arccosh

if there was correct defensive driving on the car's part, the accident wouldn't happen, even though the other 2 are major contributing factors...

You can't control anyone else, but you can control your driving.... if due care was taken entering back into the left lane, even though the truck was speeding, the car shouldn't have entered the lane until it was deemed clear....

You could argue you couldn't see it behind the bus, but that would mean:
-you didn't enter the lane when you were sure it was fully clear
-you didn't pay due care and attention

ThewhiteJesus

Car driver is the main cause of the crash imo

Jeremy Sproket

Jeremy Sproket wrote: »

On a 3 laned stretch of motorway, there is a bus driving in the middle lane (double decker so driving at 65 km/h).

A car approaches from behind in the leftmost lane at the 80 km/h speed limit.

Coming up behind the car is a lorry.

The car carefully overtakes the bus at 80 km/h and no more, as to exceed this speed would be extremely dangerous and life threatening.
.

OSI wrote: »

The car driver however, driving significantly below the limit and .

How? How is the car driving too slowly? The limit in this scenario is 80.

Did you read the OP?

ratracer

The idiot car driver who moved across a lane without checking if it was clear is 100% at fault. Other factors don’t come into play. If the driver observed caution, the collision wouldn’t have happened.
No side mirror is no excuse either, shoulder checks should be used in that case.

R.O.R

Jeremy Sproket wrote: »

On a 3 laned stretch of motorway,

Jeremy Sproket wrote: »

The limit in this scenario is 80.

Where in Ireland is there a 3 lane stretch of Motorway with an 80km/h limit?

Jeremy Sproket

R.O.R wrote: »

Where in Ireland is there a 3 lane stretch of Motorway with an 80km/h limit?

Between Dublin Airport and Dublin CC.

duffman13

Car driver at fault from my reading of that, he moved to overtake a bus so was in the far right lane, then moved across in front of the bus and then again in front of the truck. Dashcam footage from the truck ma help here but failure from the driver to check his mirrors is a very basic error.

Thoie

Regardless of what the lorry or bus were or weren't doing, the car pulled back across without checking the way was clear to do so.

There's no way for the bus or the car to precisely say what speed the lorry was doing. It may not have been breaking the speed limit.

R.O.R

OSI wrote: »

There's about a 100m stretch of the M1, where we can only assume the lorry grew booster rockets to be able to out accelerate a car in the time it takes to overtake a bus.

Ah yes, forgot about that. Should have remembered considering I drive it every Mon-Fri on the way home.

Frequently happens at that section where trucks "undertake" other slow moving traffic. Busses / Trucks will move out of the inside lane to accommodate traffic joining from the M50.

In the scenario in the OP, it's totally the stupid car drivers fault.

Guy:Incognito

Jeremy Sproket wrote: »

Between Dublin Airport and Dublin CC.

All that stretch is either 2 lanes or separate lanes leading to different exits denoted by thicker and closer together broken white lines or , at the section closest to the port tunnel entrance , the left lane is a lane that is the slip road that joins and becomes a 3rd lane so at any stage there could be traffic in that lane that has just joined the motorway.

Not that it's relevant because if you just swing in to a lane that someone is already in and hit them, it's your fault

Jeremy Sproket

OSI wrote: »

There's about a 100m stretch of the M1, where we can only assume the lorry grew booster rockets to be able to out accelerate a car in the time it takes to overtake a bus.

It's nearly 5 km of the M1.

Guy:Incognito

Jeremy Sproket wrote: »

It's nearly 5 km of the M1.

The port tunnel and the section as far as J1 is the m50

bladespin

Always the up to the one entering the lane to be sure it's clear.

Henry Ford III

cpoh1 wrote: »

Its not understood because its not explicit. the other persons context and meaning of slow moving may be every bit as relevant and correct as yours. Have spoken to traffic cops on this and even they are not 100% clear.

Either way truck is not at fault for the collision. Driver who entered his lane is.

We've been here before. Many times.

I'll paraphrase here for clarity....

Pass only on the right except:-

1/. You are turning left. I'd take that to mean pretty much immediately. It's not ok to have your left indicator lit and pass lots of cars on the lhs before eventually turning left some time later. I've seen this happen btw.
2/. Car in front is turning right. That's a rarity as nearly all dual carriageway/motorway exits are to the left.
3/. In slow moving traffic your lane is making better progress than the outside lane(s).

The key here is the word slow. It doesn't mean slower. So if you're in lane 1 doing 120kph, and there's a another vehicle doing less in lane 2 then legally you must move out 2 lanes, pass them, and then filter back into lane 1 again.

https://www.garda.ie/en/crime/traffic-matters/rules_of_the_road.pdf

Page 55.

I think it's quite clear tbh.

Henry Ford III

Should have put in a p.s. above.

p.s. None of these rules apply obviously on the M50, which is more of a jungle than a motorway.

Midnight_EG

Passing on the left is not the same as undertaking... Once that's understood, the car is at fault

Henry Ford III

Midnight_EG wrote: »

Passing on the left is not the same as undertaking... Once that's understood, the car is at fault

It's exactly the same. See above.

Del2005

Henry Ford III wrote: »

We've been here before. Many times.

I'll paraphrase here for clarity....

Pass only on the right except:-

1/. You are turning left. I'd take that to mean pretty much immediately. It's not ok to have your left indicator lit and pass lots of cars on the lhs before eventually turning left some time later. I've seen this happen btw.
2/. Car in front is turning right. That's a rarity as nearly all dual carriageway/motorway exits are to the left.
3/. In slow moving traffic your lane is making better progress than the outside lane(s).

The key here is the word slow. It doesn't mean slower. So if you're in lane 1 doing 120kph, and there's a another vehicle doing less in lane 2 then legally you must move out 2 lanes, pass them, and then filter back into lane 1 again.

https://www.garda.ie/en/crime/traffic-matters/rules_of_the_road.pdf

Page 55.

I think it's quite clear tbh.

If I'm driving on a 1 lane road just below the speed limit and there's slow moving traffic ahead I can legally cross into the oncoming traffic lane and pass them once it's safe and legal. If I'm on a multi lane road driving just below the speed limit in the driving lane and there is slow moving traffic ahead I can move into the overtaking lane to pass once it's safe and legal to do so. If I'm driving on multi lane road below the speed limit in the driving lane and there is slow moving traffic in the outside lane I can pass, its up to the other driver to ensure that they change lanes when it's safe and legal. The traffic is the same in all the above scenarios.


None of which matters to the OP's story because they entered an already occupied lane, they are lucky that they hit a truck and not a bike.

"(3) A driver shall overtake on the right and shall not move in towards the left until it is safe to do so."

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1964/si/294/made/en/print

Henry Ford III

Del2005 wrote: »

If I'm driving on a 1 lane road just below the speed limit and there's slow moving traffic ahead I can legally cross into the oncoming traffic lane and pass them once it's safe and legal. If I'm on a multi lane road driving just below the speed limit in the driving lane and there is slow moving traffic ahead I can move into the overtaking lane to pass once it's safe and legal to do so. If I'm driving on multi lane road below the speed limit in the driving lane and there is slow moving traffic in the outside lane I can pass, its up to the other driver to ensure that they change lanes when it's safe and legal. The traffic is the same in all the above scenarios.


None of which matters to the OP's story because they entered an already occupied lane, they are lucky that they hit a truck and not a bike.

"(3) A driver shall overtake on the right and shall not move in towards the left until it is safe to do so."

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1964/si/294/made/en/print

I've no idea what you're on about. Your post makes no sense and your statutory reference doesn't support it either.

Wishbone Ash

MacDanger wrote: »

Are they not allowed out for overtaking? Didn't know that

Not where there are 100 and 120km/h limits. They are permitted in the rightmost lane where the speed limit is 80km/h.

.anon.

arccosh wrote: »

You can't control anyone else, but you can control your driving.... if due care was taken entering back into the left lane, even though the truck was speeding, the car shouldn't have entered the lane until it was deemed clear....

The highlighted bit is so important and seems to be forgotten by a lot of drivers. Regardless of whose insurance company has to pay up, it takes two to have an accident. It doesn't matter that the truck was undertaking and very slightly exceeding the limit. It doesn't matter that the bus was, for whatever reason, in the middle lane at that moment in time. It's your responsibility to be aware of your own surroundings when changing lanes. That's why your car has mirrors.

I was overtaken recently on the M50 (driving a bus at 65km/h in the inside lane) by an SUV that had both mirrors folded inwards. I beeped as he passed me. I could see him looking at me in the rear view mirror, but the side ones remained folded as he drove off into the distance.