Apart from the lane hogging bus, who is more at fault here?

Jeremy Sproket

On a 3 laned stretch of motorway, there is a bus driving in the middle lane (double decker so driving at 65 km/h).

A car approaches from behind in the leftmost lane at the 80 km/h speed limit.

Coming up behind the car is a lorry.

The car carefully overtakes the bus at 80 km/h and no more, as to exceed this speed would be extremely dangerous and life threatening.

When the car is overtaking the bus, the lorry increases to an extremely dangers and reckless speed (90 km/h which is the max for the lorry and simply undertakes the bus as the car is overtaking it correctly).

When the car returns to the leftmost lane, it is smashed into by the lorry driving at a disgraceful speed.

Who is at fault?

The lorry imo.

Witcher

Car driver failed to observe before they entered the left lane. You can't just fly across into a lane.

Jeremy Sproket

You also can't undertake on the left or speed. It's a crime.

At least it is in my country (Sweden). The driving is poor here. Some cars don't have nearside mirrors btw (some vintage cars).

MacDanger

The lorry driver breaks the rules of the road by undertaking (and possibly dangerous driving) but the driver of the car bears primary responsibility for the crash imo; the earlier infringements by the lorry driver don't absolve the car driver of his responsibilities to check the left lane before entering it

_Kaiser_

This is why the undertaking that is regularly advocated for on here is an issue. This is the result.

All three at fault really..

- Truck driver for undertaking the bus
- Car driver for not using proper observation
- Bus driver in the middle lane (double-decker on a 3 lane road.. bet I can guess the colour!)

MacDanger

OSI wrote: »

You can legally undertake if the traffic is moving slowly. A bus doing a little over half the speed limit is moving slowly. A HGV is also not allowed in the outermost lane so the safest way for it proceed is to remain in it's lane doing the speed it is legally allowed to do.

The car driver however, driving significantly below the limit and moving across 3 lanes without checking their mirrors or blind spots is a death waiting to happen and has absolutely no one to blame for other than themselves.

Are they not allowed out for overtaking? Didn't know that

Staplor

Sounds like the car didn't look to see if it was safe to move into the left lane, or perhaps the car swung wildly across the 2 lanes, the bus blocking the view of the inside lane?

_Kaiser_

OSI wrote: »

You can legally undertake if the traffic is moving slowly. A bus doing a little over half the speed limit is moving slowly.

Nope.

Slow in the context that's intended refers to congested bumper to bumper traffic, not traffic moving at between 60-90 km/h

How this isn't understood is beyond me.

Pintman Paddy Losty

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

Nope.

Slow in the context that's intended refers to congested bumper to bumper traffic, not traffic moving at between 60-90 km/h

How this isn't understood is beyond me.

Wrong.

cpoh1

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

Nope.

Slow in the context that's intended refers to congested bumper to bumper traffic, not traffic moving at between 60-90 km/h

How this isn't understood is beyond me.

Its not understood because its not explicit. the other persons context and meaning of slow moving may be every bit as relevant and correct as yours. Have spoken to traffic cops on this and even they are not 100% clear.

Either way truck is not at fault for the collision. Driver who entered his lane is.

arccosh

if there was correct defensive driving on the car's part, the accident wouldn't happen, even though the other 2 are major contributing factors...

You can't control anyone else, but you can control your driving.... if due care was taken entering back into the left lane, even though the truck was speeding, the car shouldn't have entered the lane until it was deemed clear....

You could argue you couldn't see it behind the bus, but that would mean:
-you didn't enter the lane when you were sure it was fully clear
-you didn't pay due care and attention

ThewhiteJesus

Car driver is the main cause of the crash imo

Jeremy Sproket

Jeremy Sproket wrote: »

On a 3 laned stretch of motorway, there is a bus driving in the middle lane (double decker so driving at 65 km/h).

A car approaches from behind in the leftmost lane at the 80 km/h speed limit.

Coming up behind the car is a lorry.

The car carefully overtakes the bus at 80 km/h and no more, as to exceed this speed would be extremely dangerous and life threatening.
.

OSI wrote: »

The car driver however, driving significantly below the limit and .

How? How is the car driving too slowly? The limit in this scenario is 80.

Did you read the OP?

ratracer

The idiot car driver who moved across a lane without checking if it was clear is 100% at fault. Other factors don’t come into play. If the driver observed caution, the collision wouldn’t have happened.
No side mirror is no excuse either, shoulder checks should be used in that case.

R.O.R

Jeremy Sproket wrote: »

On a 3 laned stretch of motorway,

Jeremy Sproket wrote: »

The limit in this scenario is 80.

Where in Ireland is there a 3 lane stretch of Motorway with an 80km/h limit?

Jeremy Sproket

R.O.R wrote: »

Where in Ireland is there a 3 lane stretch of Motorway with an 80km/h limit?

Between Dublin Airport and Dublin CC.

duffman13

Car driver at fault from my reading of that, he moved to overtake a bus so was in the far right lane, then moved across in front of the bus and then again in front of the truck. Dashcam footage from the truck ma help here but failure from the driver to check his mirrors is a very basic error.

Thoie

Regardless of what the lorry or bus were or weren't doing, the car pulled back across without checking the way was clear to do so.

There's no way for the bus or the car to precisely say what speed the lorry was doing. It may not have been breaking the speed limit.

R.O.R

OSI wrote: »

There's about a 100m stretch of the M1, where we can only assume the lorry grew booster rockets to be able to out accelerate a car in the time it takes to overtake a bus.

Ah yes, forgot about that. Should have remembered considering I drive it every Mon-Fri on the way home.

Frequently happens at that section where trucks "undertake" other slow moving traffic. Busses / Trucks will move out of the inside lane to accommodate traffic joining from the M50.

In the scenario in the OP, it's totally the stupid car drivers fault.

Guy:Incognito

Jeremy Sproket wrote: »

Between Dublin Airport and Dublin CC.

All that stretch is either 2 lanes or separate lanes leading to different exits denoted by thicker and closer together broken white lines or , at the section closest to the port tunnel entrance , the left lane is a lane that is the slip road that joins and becomes a 3rd lane so at any stage there could be traffic in that lane that has just joined the motorway.

Not that it's relevant because if you just swing in to a lane that someone is already in and hit them, it's your fault

Jeremy Sproket

OSI wrote: »

There's about a 100m stretch of the M1, where we can only assume the lorry grew booster rockets to be able to out accelerate a car in the time it takes to overtake a bus.

It's nearly 5 km of the M1.

Guy:Incognito

Jeremy Sproket wrote: »

It's nearly 5 km of the M1.

The port tunnel and the section as far as J1 is the m50

bladespin

Always the up to the one entering the lane to be sure it's clear.

Henry Ford III

cpoh1 wrote: »

Its not understood because its not explicit. the other persons context and meaning of slow moving may be every bit as relevant and correct as yours. Have spoken to traffic cops on this and even they are not 100% clear.

Either way truck is not at fault for the collision. Driver who entered his lane is.

We've been here before. Many times.

I'll paraphrase here for clarity....

Pass only on the right except:-

1/. You are turning left. I'd take that to mean pretty much immediately. It's not ok to have your left indicator lit and pass lots of cars on the lhs before eventually turning left some time later. I've seen this happen btw.
2/. Car in front is turning right. That's a rarity as nearly all dual carriageway/motorway exits are to the left.
3/. In slow moving traffic your lane is making better progress than the outside lane(s).

The key here is the word slow. It doesn't mean slower. So if you're in lane 1 doing 120kph, and there's a another vehicle doing less in lane 2 then legally you must move out 2 lanes, pass them, and then filter back into lane 1 again.

https://www.garda.ie/en/crime/traffic-matters/rules_of_the_road.pdf

Page 55.

I think it's quite clear tbh.

Henry Ford III

Should have put in a p.s. above.

p.s. None of these rules apply obviously on the M50, which is more of a jungle than a motorway.

Midnight_EG

Passing on the left is not the same as undertaking... Once that's understood, the car is at fault

Henry Ford III

Midnight_EG wrote: »

Passing on the left is not the same as undertaking... Once that's understood, the car is at fault

It's exactly the same. See above.

Del2005

Henry Ford III wrote: »

We've been here before. Many times.

I'll paraphrase here for clarity....

Pass only on the right except:-

1/. You are turning left. I'd take that to mean pretty much immediately. It's not ok to have your left indicator lit and pass lots of cars on the lhs before eventually turning left some time later. I've seen this happen btw.
2/. Car in front is turning right. That's a rarity as nearly all dual carriageway/motorway exits are to the left.
3/. In slow moving traffic your lane is making better progress than the outside lane(s).

The key here is the word slow. It doesn't mean slower. So if you're in lane 1 doing 120kph, and there's a another vehicle doing less in lane 2 then legally you must move out 2 lanes, pass them, and then filter back into lane 1 again.

https://www.garda.ie/en/crime/traffic-matters/rules_of_the_road.pdf

Page 55.

I think it's quite clear tbh.

If I'm driving on a 1 lane road just below the speed limit and there's slow moving traffic ahead I can legally cross into the oncoming traffic lane and pass them once it's safe and legal. If I'm on a multi lane road driving just below the speed limit in the driving lane and there is slow moving traffic ahead I can move into the overtaking lane to pass once it's safe and legal to do so. If I'm driving on multi lane road below the speed limit in the driving lane and there is slow moving traffic in the outside lane I can pass, its up to the other driver to ensure that they change lanes when it's safe and legal. The traffic is the same in all the above scenarios.


None of which matters to the OP's story because they entered an already occupied lane, they are lucky that they hit a truck and not a bike.

"(3) A driver shall overtake on the right and shall not move in towards the left until it is safe to do so."

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1964/si/294/made/en/print

Henry Ford III

Del2005 wrote: »

If I'm driving on a 1 lane road just below the speed limit and there's slow moving traffic ahead I can legally cross into the oncoming traffic lane and pass them once it's safe and legal. If I'm on a multi lane road driving just below the speed limit in the driving lane and there is slow moving traffic ahead I can move into the overtaking lane to pass once it's safe and legal to do so. If I'm driving on multi lane road below the speed limit in the driving lane and there is slow moving traffic in the outside lane I can pass, its up to the other driver to ensure that they change lanes when it's safe and legal. The traffic is the same in all the above scenarios.


None of which matters to the OP's story because they entered an already occupied lane, they are lucky that they hit a truck and not a bike.

"(3) A driver shall overtake on the right and shall not move in towards the left until it is safe to do so."

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1964/si/294/made/en/print

I've no idea what you're on about. Your post makes no sense and your statutory reference doesn't support it either.

Wishbone Ash

MacDanger wrote: »

Are they not allowed out for overtaking? Didn't know that

Not where there are 100 and 120km/h limits. They are permitted in the rightmost lane where the speed limit is 80km/h.

.anon.

arccosh wrote: »

You can't control anyone else, but you can control your driving.... if due care was taken entering back into the left lane, even though the truck was speeding, the car shouldn't have entered the lane until it was deemed clear....

The highlighted bit is so important and seems to be forgotten by a lot of drivers. Regardless of whose insurance company has to pay up, it takes two to have an accident. It doesn't matter that the truck was undertaking and very slightly exceeding the limit. It doesn't matter that the bus was, for whatever reason, in the middle lane at that moment in time. It's your responsibility to be aware of your own surroundings when changing lanes. That's why your car has mirrors.

I was overtaken recently on the M50 (driving a bus at 65km/h in the inside lane) by an SUV that had both mirrors folded inwards. I beeped as he passed me. I could see him looking at me in the rear view mirror, but the side ones remained folded as he drove off into the distance.

Dirty Nails

Jeremy Sproket wrote: »

On a 3 laned stretch of motorway, there is a bus driving in the middle lane (double decker so driving at 65 km/h).

A car approaches from behind in the leftmost lane at the 80 km/h speed limit.

Coming up behind the car is a lorry.

The car carefully overtakes the bus at 80 km/h and no more, as to exceed this speed would be extremely dangerous and life threatening.

When the car is overtaking the bus, the lorry increases to an extremely dangers and reckless speed (90 km/h which is the max for the lorry and simply undertakes the bus as the car is overtaking it correctly).

When the car returns to the leftmost lane, it is smashed into by the lorry driving at a disgraceful speed.

Who is at fault?

The lorry imo.

Just to be clear-car & lorry in lane 1,bus in lane 2. The car crosses from lane 1 to lane 3 to overtake. That should be 2 manoeuvres. The car overtakes the bus & decides to go back to lane 1 in 1 manoeuvre. Surely the car driver should have been checking their mirrors before crossing each lane?

Jeremy Sproket

Jeremy Sproket wrote: »

You also can't undertake on the left or speed. It's a crime.

At least it is in my country (Sweden). The driving is poor here. Some cars don't have nearside mirrors btw (some vintage cars).

Can't you though? Follow the logic. A car drives at half the limit in the right lane, is every single other car on the road obliged to form a long double lane queue behind?

For me, if you are within the limit and don't change lanes to pass the slow vehicle, it's fine.

Dirty Nails

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

Can't you though? Follow the logic. A car drives at half the limit in the right lane, is every single other car on the road obliged to form a long double lane queue behind?

For me, if you are within the limit and don't change lanes to pass the slow vehicle, it's fine.

I have no idea if that's legal or not,but I'd agree with you.
You don't expect people in cars wobbling across lanes without looking.

.anon.

As an aside, it might be worth contacting the bus company (assuming that the bus was clearly branded), either by email or through their social media accounts, about their driver's poor road positioning. There are very few scenarios in which a vehicle limited to 65km/h should be in the middle lane.

_Kaiser_

.anon. wrote: »

As an aside, it might be worth contacting the bus company (assuming that the bus was clearly branded), either by email or through their social media accounts, about their driver's poor road positioning. There are very few scenarios in which a vehicle limited to 65km/h should be in the middle lane.

If it's the crowd I'm thinking of then they aren't limited to 65 km/h or possibly at all.

Dirty Nails

Dirty Nails wrote: »

I have no idea if that's legal or not,but I'd agree with you.
You don't expect people in cars wobbling across lanes without looking.

True. In the op I think the car is at fault for the actual collision.

Del2005

Henry Ford III wrote: »

I've no idea what you're on about. Your post makes no sense and your statutory reference doesn't support it either.

It's legal to pass traffic on a single lane road by crossing into the oncoming lane, it's legal to pass traffic on a multi lane road by changing to the outside lane, it's legal to pass traffic on the inside if they aren't making as much progress as you.


My statutory reference was that regardless of what the truck or bus driver were doing the person doing the passing has to ensure that they merge safely back to the right. You can't say that the HGV driver was in the wrong and ignore that the car driver appears to have crossed 2 lanes of traffic without checking that's it safe.

athlone573

Del2005 wrote: »

, it's legal to pass traffic on the inside if they aren't making as much progress as you.
.

Oh no it's not

Only in slow moving traffic

Midnight_EG

.anon. wrote: »

As an aside, it might be worth contacting the bus company (assuming that the bus was clearly branded), either by email or through their social media accounts, about their driver's poor road positioning. There are very few scenarios in which a vehicle limited to 65km/h should be in the middle lane.

Depends on the section of road the OP is referring to though. Having worked in the Harristown depot of DB, going special to Clongriffin or into CC using the tunnel meant having to use the middle lane of the M50 as if you stick to the left lane you end up going towards the M1 northbound and then have to try jostle for position with little road space at that stage.

Del2005

athlone573 wrote: »

Oh no it's not

Only in slow moving traffic

The bus was doing 65km/h that's slow moving.

A Law

Midnight_EG wrote: »

Depends on the section of road the OP is referring to though. Having worked in the Harristown depot of DB, going special to Clongriffin or into CC using the tunnel meant having to use the middle lane of the M50 as if you stick to the left lane you end up going towards the M1 northbound and then have to try jostle for position with little road space at that stage.

Yea, this isn't a three lane motorway If it's from Junction 1 to the Port Tunnell. If the bus was using the tunnel if had to be in the middle lane. The inside lane is for the CC/santry turn off. Lorry probably coming off the M50. I can't see how the bus or lorry are at fault.

Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime

There's no argument here

The car is at fault for moving into a lane when unsafe to do so

Unless we know exactly where the incident happened, we can't speculate on the bus and truck

But the previous is correct, it is illegal for a truck to be in the overtaking lane of a motorway so they took the blue sensible option.


Also I don't know what the OP is going on about dangerously overtaking a bus on a motorway, you overtake it like any other vehicle, end of. There's no need to slow down for it.

knucklehead6

The car carefully overtakes the bus at 80 km/h and no more, as to exceed this speed would be extremely dangerous and life threatening.

When the car is overtaking the bus, the lorry increases to an extremely dangers and reckless speed (90 km/h which is the max for the lorry and simply undertakes the bus as the car is overtaking it correctly).

Look at the emotive language. “Carefully” “exceed speed...extremely dangerous and life threatening”

“Extremely dangerous (sic) .... reckless speed”

I think the op is on a windup.

soundman45

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

If it's the crowd I'm thinking of then they aren't limited to 65 km/h or possibly at all.

What "crowd" are you thinking of? Also there are different regulations regarding speed limits for double deckers. A typical Dublin Bus/Go Ahead bus is restricted to 65kph as they have no seat belts fitted and are allowed to carry standing passengers.Same bus with seat belts fitted and no standing passengers this does not apply and some of these deckers are used by private companies one I know of does a Bus Eireann run every evening Dublin to Navan. Also a Double Decker Coach as used by Dublin Coach on their route 726 can also legally travel at 100kph.

Henry Ford III

Del2005 wrote: »

The bus was doing 65km/h that's slow moving.

It's not. It's slower moving.

Read the link I provided earlier and you'll see that slow moving has been defined as stop/start.

While that's not a statutory definition it's a RSA publication on the Garda website.

Jim_Hodge

The wording in the OP makes it perfectly clear who they think/want to be at fault, so any advice to the contrary is not helpful to them.


But the car driver is still primarily responsible.

FishOnABike

MacDanger wrote: »

Are they not allowed out for overtaking? Didn't know that

HGVs not allowed in lane 3 of a 3 lane carriageway.

twin_beacon

Jeremy Sproket wrote: »

On a 3 laned stretch of motorway, there is a bus driving in the middle lane driving at 65 km/h.

A car approaches from behind in the leftmost lane at the 80 km/h speed limit.

Coming up behind the car is a lorry.

The car overtakes the bus at 80 km/h

When the car is overtaking the bus, the lorry undertakes the bus

When the car returns to the leftmost lane, it is smashed into by the lorry

Who is at fault?

updating the original post to just give the facts.
Who is responsible for the crash? Clearly the car, nobody else. If the lorry was speeding (if we even know the exact speed it was doing?), they are still not responsible for the crash, as the car did not correctly check their mirrors and blind spot before entering the left lane, into the path of the lorry.

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

Nope.

Slow in the context that's intended refers to congested bumper to bumper traffic, not traffic moving at between 60-90 km/h

How this isn't understood is beyond me.

The law does not have any context, it just states if traffic is moving more "slowly". There is no mention of what defines "slow", or if the slowness is being caused by traffic congestion, or just a single slow moving vehicle.



From page 55 of the Rules of the Road

REMEMBER You must normally overtake on the right. However, you are allowed to overtake on the left in the situations listed below.

• You want to go straight ahead when the driver in front of you has moved out and signalled that they intend to turn right.
• You have signalled that you intend to turn left.
• Traffic in both lanes is moving slowly but traffic in the left-hand lane is moving more quickly than the right-hand lane – for example, in slow moving stop/start traffic conditions.

Del2005

Henry Ford III wrote: »

It's not. It's slower moving.

Read the link I provided earlier and you'll see that slow moving has been defined as stop/start.

While that's not a statutory definition it's a RSA publication on the Garda website.

Until there is a case taken we can discuss this till the sun expands and destroys the planet.

Still doesn't change the fact that the car driver was responsible for the crash. Even if the HGV did an illegal pass of the bus the car driver failed to check the lanes they crossed were clear

Henry Ford III

Del2005 wrote: »

Until there is a case taken we can discuss this till the sun expands and destroys the planet.

I really don't think there's much to discuss tbh. I've reasoned the case with both statutory and non statutory references supporting that.