85yo man investigated for a "non-crime hate incident"

Shield

Old guy in the winter years of his life send a cordial letter to an activist. Instead of engaging him in dialogue, she calls the cops and the letter gets recorded as a 'hate incident'. These "non-criime hate incidents" are such a drain on police resources. Nobody in the job thinks they're a good idea. Give me strength.

https://www.henleystandard.co.uk/news/sonning-common/159476/mans-anger-at-police-record-of-hate-crime.html

tdf7187

Can't we have a generic 'I'm disgusted at this political correctness gorn mad in other countries' thread?

timmyntc

The UK police should be more concerned with stopping knife crime and grooming gangs than this crap

tdf7187 wrote:

Can't we have a generic 'I'm disgusted at this political correctness gorn mad in other countries' thread?

In fairness is this letter even anti-PC? There's "PC gone mad" and then theres this.

tdf7187

Ah I see the OP is a serving cop.

Well, my suggestion is that some of these people making complaints over trivial issues should be charged with wasting police time. It is an actual offense, still on the statute books, though rarely used.

landofthetree

But we have a right-wing government.

MrMusician18

Every report to police gets recorded on their computer system. This was probably what the cop felt was the best fit from a drop down list as waste of time isn't selectable.

joseywhales

What a well written letter. Perfectly balanced and he clearly articulates his point without hysteria except for the "disgracefully" adjective which might have been avoided. How is this defined as a hate incident?

lawred2

Shield wrote: »

Old guy in the winter years of his life send a cordial letter to an activist. Instead of engaging him in dialogue, she calls the cops and the letter gets recorded as a 'hate incident'. These "non-criime hate incidents" are such a drain on police resources. Nobody in the job thinks they're a good idea. Give me strength.

https://www.henleystandard.co.uk/news/sonning-common/159476/mans-anger-at-police-record-of-hate-crime.html

strange letter to write

Gatling

It's like the chap in the UK who got phone call from a police force to check his thinking when it came to Sharing a tweet that apparently offended trans activist.

Coming to your nearest police force , the thought squad

riffmongous

It doesn't say she's an activist in your article.. which I guess is why the police have to keep a record. There's enough nutjobs out there who track down someone's home address to harass them.

If he wanted to reply he should have replied to the Newspaper

Overheal

Where is the alleged hate crime here? Should be a slam dunk appeals process for the accused.

One eyed Jack

Shield wrote: »

Old guy in the winter years of his life send a cordial letter to an activist.

Overheal

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Ah here he wrote a fairly cogent letter of disagreement arguing several reasoned points to the sensitive cloud

AdrianBalboa

All of this “vulnerable old man in the last years of his life” stuff is hogwash. He was spry enough to be able to find her address online after all.

He shouldn’t be writing letters to her home because of something she wrote into the newspaper about. It would be akin to somebody sending me a letter over a disagreement on boards.ie after parsing my identity from the scant details I have given about my own life: While it would not necessarily be threatening it would certainly be invasive and most unwelcome. He should have the book thrown at him to be honest.

NickNickleby

Its totally ridiculous that the letter should have ended up in a police report.
But...... what kind of clown writes an unsolicited, critical and personal letter to a complete stranger. A real life Victor Meldrew, I'd say. He should have sent to to the Times letters page as a response.

If I started receiving letters like that, in the first instance I'd be FIRMLY telling the person to take a hike.

lawred2

Overheal wrote: »

Where is the alleged hate crime here? Should be a slam dunk appeals process for the accused.

why is he writing to her directly? unsolicited?

One eyed Jack

Overheal wrote: »

Ah here he wrote a fairly cogent letter of disagreement arguing several reasoned points to the sensitive cloud

And then searched for her home address online to send it to her…

alchemist33

The headline of the article says hate crime. The article clearly says it isn't a crime. Even the English equivalents of the Ballyboggy Examiner are at the oul clickbait, it seems.

jimmycrackcorm

To be totally fair, the above letter should show the man's address, so we can all write to him to find out what he thinks of people sending him letters giving an opinion. I think I would find it disconcerting that someone went out of their way to find my address online and posted a letter to me. AFAIK newspaper leters don't publish the full address in their letters column so it shouldn't be taken as an invitation to get into personal correspondence.

alchemist33

lawred2 wrote: »

why is he writing to her directly? unsolicited?

Writing a reply to the newspaper like normal (or whatever normal in the Writing to Newspaper community is) people isn't enough for some reason. He must have thought his opinion is so important that taking the chance she wouldn't see his reply in the paper, or even the newspaper not printing it, is unconscionable.

riffmongous

alchemist33 wrote: »

Writing a reply to the newspaper like normal (or whatever normal in the Writing to Newspaper community is) people isn't enough for some reason. He must have thought his opinion is so important that taking the chance she wouldn't see his reply in the paper, or even the newspaper not printing it, is unconscionable.

Yeah I wonder if she's the first person to get an unsolicited letter from him

Overheal

AdrianBalboa wrote: »

All of this “vulnerable old man in the last years of his life” stuff is hogwash. He was spry enough to be able to find her address online after all.

He shouldn’t be writing letters to her home because of something she wrote into the newspaper about. It would be akin to somebody sending me a letter over a disagreement on boards.ie after parsing my identity from the scant details I have given about my own life: While it would not necessarily be threatening it would certainly be invasive and most unwelcome. He should have the book thrown at him to be honest.

For writing a letter and looking up a mailing address?! That’s “massively invasive,” I think not. Forgive me but I grew up with the Yellow Pages. I’ve also grown up being advised that if you want to reach someone in a formal or polite matter that a personalized letter is a prime format for doing so, preferred by generations above a phone call, email, or text in that descending order. I hope you’re joking but it’s hard to tell when uptight people are accusing old men of hate crimes for letters of cordial disagreement.

Overheal

lawred2 wrote: »

why is he writing to her directly? unsolicited?

He wants to respond directly to her?

I think it’s fair to say her viewpoint solicited debate response by any member of the public when it was published wittingly in a journal of record.

If you knew JK Rowling’s home address and you wanted to send a letter do her do you go to the publisher of the Harry Potter series? I think not.

AdrianBalboa

Overheal wrote: »

For writing a letter and looking up a mailing address?! That’s “massively invasive,” I think not. Forgive me but I grew up with the Yellow Pages. I’ve also grown up being advised that if you want to reach someone in a formal or polite matter that a personalized letter is a prime format for doing so, preferred by generations above a phone call, email, or text in that descending order. I hope you’re joking but it’s hard to tell when uptight people re charging old men with hate crimes for letters of cordial disagreement.

The Golden Pages were for businesses.

It has never been au fait to send people replies to their homes in riposte over letters to the paper, not even back in your day, grandpa.

And all this “he’s an old man” rubbish doesn’t hold any water. If he’s savvy enough to find out where she lives online, he’s big enough to suffer the punishment for hassling her.

WrenBoy

I see these hate speech laws are quite the boon to society.

timmyntc

lawred2 wrote: »

why is he writing to her directly? unsolicited?

He wanted to respond to her, not the public perhaps?
Or he didnt trust that she would see his letter were it published in the paper.

Her contact information and address were obviously a matter of public record, if she didnt want to be contacted at her home she should not have this stuff listed. Its like having your phone number searchable in yellow pages - you can opt out if you dont want to be contacted there.

lawred2

Overheal wrote: »

He wants to respond directly to her?

I think it’s fair to say her viewpoint solicited debate response by any member of the public when it was published wittingly in a journal of record.

If you knew JK Rowling’s home address and you wanted to send a letter do her do you go to the publisher of the Harry Potter series? I think not.

And?

If you knew JK Rowling’s home address and you wanted to send a letter

I still wouldn't

Since when does wanting to do something make that something an acceptable thing to do?

Overheal

One eyed Jack wrote: »

And then searched for her home address online to send it to her…

Is that in and of itself, any way a crime in the UK or a jurisdiction familiar to you?

I have unsolicited mail sent to me quite often. Some of it clearly triggered by information obtained from privileged sources, like the department of motor vehicles, credit unions and the like. I have an expunged arrest from years back, but the moment it was on the books I had lawyers from all over my region mailing me their canned solicitations. I find this unnerving, but is it criminal, threatening behavior? Or is it only threatening if the person doing it doesn’t want to sell me anything or demand a phantom debt from me? I fail to see where the line is that it crosses into becoming a crime.

lawred2

Overheal wrote: »

Is that in and of itself, any way a crime in the UK or a jurisdiction familiar to you?

I have unsolicited mail sent to me quite often. Some of it clearly triggered by information obtained from privileged sources, like the department of motor vehicles, credit unions and the like. I have an expunged arrest from years back, but the moment it was on the books I had lawyers from all over my region mailing me their canned solicitations. I find this unnerving, but is it criminal, threatening behavior? Or is it only threatening if the person doing it doesn’t want to sell me anything or demand a phantom debt from me?

that's entirely different

everyone gets junk mail

not remotely equivalent

RWCNT

alchemist33 wrote: »

Writing a reply to the newspaper like normal (or whatever normal in the Writing to Newspaper community is) people isn't enough for some reason. He must have thought his opinion is so important that taking the chance she wouldn't see his reply in the paper, or even the newspaper not printing it, is unconscionable.

This got a massive belly laugh out of me for some reason

timmyntc

Fan mail to musicians and actors is something thats happened for decades.

In some cases its harrassment - dependent on content. But this letter is neither harrassment or hate crime. Its just a man who cordially disagrees with someone.

Mrs OBumble

timmyntc wrote: »

The UK police should be more concerned with stopping knife crime and grooming gangs than this crap


In fairness is this letter even anti-PC? There's "PC gone mad" and then theres this.

No -it's pro PC.

He's saying that if pregnant people want to have their own foetus aborted because they learn it has a disability, that's OK and that she is disgusting for judging them.

Overheal

lawred2 wrote: »

that's entirely different

everyone gets junk mail

not remotely equivalent

It is remotely equivalent of course. Both involve a lookup of a persons address and a letter sent. Not entirely different at all. Remote equivalence plainly demonstrable.

Help explain how those examples aren’t a crime and how this man’s letter is. I’m going to presume that @Shield will happily cite any statute of it applies, which I have my sincere doubts that any do

Ronaldinho

Welcome to the 2020s

All bad/wrong think must be shut down.

F freedom of speech / open debate / respectfulness for alternative viewpoints.

AdrianBalboa

timmyntc wrote: »

Fan mail to musicians and actors is something thats happened for decades.

In some cases its harrassment - dependent on content. But this letter is neither harrassment or hate crime. Its just a man who cordially disagrees with someone.

It’s not cordial, he sent her a letter to her home. Just because he didn’t use abusive language doesn’t mean what he did was polite.

paw patrol

AdrianBalboa wrote: »

He should have the book thrown at him to be honest.

lawred2 wrote: »

why is he writing to her directly? unsolicited?

what's wrong with writing to somebody unsolicited ? You can post a letter to anybody and rightly so. Like how dare he?
I don't know how some of you leave your house each day with such precious attitudes.:rolleyes:

Fandymo

lawred2 wrote: »

why is he writing to her directly? unsolicited?

The humanity. Sending a piece of paper with some ink on it. He probably phones people off a private number too.

Jesus wept. Is society really this far gone??

lawred2

timmyntc wrote: »

Fan mail to musicians and actors is something thats happened for decades.

In some cases its harrassment - dependent on content. But this letter is neither harrassment or hate crime. Its just a man who cordially disagrees with someone.

I actually agree wholly with the content. And the manner is genteel. He'd actually have found a very receptive audience for such a position were it printed in that same newspaper.

I just don't think he should be sending it to anyone's home.

Zilch will come of this.

crossman47

AdrianBalboa wrote: »

The Golden Pages were for businesses.

It has never been au fait to send people replies to their homes in riposte over letters to the paper, not even back in your day, grandpa.

And all this “he’s an old man” rubbish doesn’t hold any water. If he’s savvy enough to find out where she lives online, he’s big enough to suffer the punishment for hassling her.

He didn't "hassle" her. He sent a polite letter.

Overheal

AdrianBalboa wrote: »

It’s not cordial, he sent her a letter to her home. Just because he didn’t use abusive language doesn’t mean what he did was polite.

She got mail from a reader and we’re to take that as offensive in and of itself?

I suspect there are stark generational divides present in attitudes here? I’m an 80s kid myself I didn’t grow up with a Nokia in my hand, I bicycled alone for miles and hours in suburb and urban areas alike, I played outside, To Catch A Predator hadn’t put the fear of god into parents yet, Swatting wasn’t practiced and neither was doxing - people had their home addresses in the white pages, businesses in the yellow pages, etc. and I was told that if you wanted to contact someone there was no more formal or polite way than a handwritten letter. And this guy has decades on me in terms of sensibilities about what is considered impolite.

GreeBo

joseywhales wrote: »

What a well written letter. Perfectly balanced and he clearly articulates his point without hysteria except for the "disgracefully" adjective which might have been avoided. How is this defined as a hate incident?

This +1.
An excellent letter.

AdrianBalboa

paw patrol wrote: »

what's wrong with writing to somebody unsolicited ? You can post a letter to anybody and rightly so. Like how dare he?
I don't know how some of you leave your house each day with such precious attitudes.:rolleyes:

It’s wrong because he doesn’t know her, and she didn’t engage with him in anyway. She sent a letter to a newspaper and instead of sending one to the newspaper himself he found out where she lived and sent her a letter to her home.

Incidentally there is nothing in his letter indicating that he is a “harmless” old man, for all she knew he could have been some mental-case who was itching to take this confrontation a step further.

People are bleating about freedom of speech etc in this thread but the reality is if anyone here got a letter like that out of the blue they would be at the very least concerned.

AdrianBalboa

crossman47 wrote: »

He didn't "hassle" her. He sent a polite letter.

He did hassle her. Any veneer of politeness or cordiality was washed off when he decided to send her the letter personally instead of to the editor of the newspaper she wrote into.

Overheal

paw patrol wrote: »

what's wrong with writing to somebody unsolicited ? You can post a letter to anybody and rightly so. Like how dare he?
I don't know how some of you leave your house each day with such precious attitudes.:rolleyes:

Imagine getting triggered by an unsolicited birthday invitation. “How did the Archbold’s get our home address? By what else: HATE CRIME.” It’s silly to me.

Letters to the editor usually contain address of the letter writer- if you don’t want random people writing letters to you then don’t write to newspapers

lawred2

Deleted User wrote: »

Letters to the editor usually contain address of the letter writer- if you don’t want random people writing letters to you then don’t write to newspapers

at most it would say a name and a broad geographic region... never an actual address

Not that I've ever seen

biko

You'll just have to learn that in NewSpeak criticism = hate.

gormdubhgorm

There was a thread which discussed Hate Crime's last year also in relation to disability and whether it should be classed a hate crime. It was an incident relating to an Irish woman with a disability. An individual who is a self styled 'activist'. It was picked up by an Irish paper and they ran with it.

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=109915223

There currently is no hate crime legislation in Ireland. And I argued why not in the above thread.

Personally I do not believe it is necessary as it the creation of a unnecessary layer which is already more than adequately covered by regular Irish legislation.

I believe the creation of 'hate crimes' in legislation only succeeds in creating yet another box to put people in. When we should be encouraging people to look beyond differences rather than unnecessarily highlighting them. It only serves certain people with agenda's and bodies with those agendas who can engage in a box ticking exercise.

The example the OP gives is how the phrase 'hate crime' becomes used beyond it's intention. And is actually used by people where they are just a bit annoyed about something. Something that does not cause them any actual harm or threat.

So the whole intention of the creation of the 'Hate Crime' in the first place becomes diluted.

lawred2

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

There was a thread which discussed Hate Crime's last year also in relation to disability and whether it should be classed a hate crime. It was an incident relating to an Irish woman with a disability. An individual who is a self styled 'activist'. It was picked up by an Irish paper and they ran with it.

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=109915223

There currently is no hate crime legislation in Ireland. And I argued why not in the above thread.

Personally I do not believe it is necessary as it the creation of a unnecessary layer which is already more than adequately covered by regular Irish legislation.

I believe the creation of 'hate crimes' in legislation only succeeds in creating yet another box to put people in. When we should be encouraging people to look beyond differences rather than unnecessarily highlighting them. It only serves certain people with agenda's and bodies with those agendas who can engage in a box ticking exercise.

The example the OP gives is how the phrase 'hate crime' becomes used beyond it's intention. And is actually used by people where they are just a bit annoyed about something. Something that does not cause them any actual harm or threat.

So the whole intention of the creation of the 'Hate Crime' in the first place becomes diluted.

does it not say "non crime hate incident"

so not a hate crime

kravmaga

MrMusician18 wrote: »

Every report to police gets recorded on their computer system. This was probably what the cop felt was the best fit from a drop down list as waste of time isn't selectable.

There is also a drop down box on the UK PNC system for NFA also..

joseywhales

We must remember that he comes from a generation of personal accountability, not this current culture of anonymity. For him it is perfectly reasonable to engage any person via letter writing in reasonable debate. It's a beautiful practice that we are losing as that generation disappears. The narrative about him being a nice old man or whatever is a red herring, the contents of the letter is all he should be judged on and in my opinion they were perfectly reasoned without personal insult or threat.