Covid vaccines - thread banned users in First Post

Igotadose

You're also asking for a complete nonsense here. Your asking people to prove a negative. 

Really, this is standard antivaxxer nonsense: asking to prove a negative. And, its the anti-vaxxer asking someone else to prove their negative, always. What they miss is, they're asserting a positive - "vaccines cause X" and when asked to prove it, state "You can't prove they don't." Which is logical nonsense.

King Mob

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119417865#Comment_119417865

"You can't prove they don't cause these deaths, therefore it's possible they caused them. Therefore they definitely did cause them."

*ignores the fact that this thread has shown conclusively that there's nothing to support the idea that the vaccine is any more dangerous than any other medicine.*

As before, there's nothing at all to connect those Spanish deaths to the vaccine, it's just the usual twitter grifters making the implication knowing that their audience will eat it up.

hometruths

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119417865#Comment_119417865

I am not "asserting a positive" - I am saying nobody knows what the cause of excess mortality is.

In the absence of a definitive explanation of why there is a consistent trend of excess mortality, it seems plausible to me that the vaccines could be a contributing factor.

This plausibility is based on the assumption that the excess mortality must be down to something significant that has happened over the past 12 months. The vaccine roll out is indeed something significant that has happened over past 12 months. Thus, in the absence of it being definitively ruled out as a contributing factor, it remains a plausible possibility.

What is illogical about that?

hometruths

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119417774#Comment_119417774

Ive never read an article where the study was used as proof to support a cause of death which is not referenced in the study

Are you referring to an article/study cited here? If so which one?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119419023#Comment_119419023

I am indeed referring to you claiming the Spanish report linked, in any way supports your assertion that the deaths are linked to vaccines. While I admit dragon deaths are an unlikely cause, there could be a plethora of reasons for the increased mortality rate which have nothing to do with Covid/vaccines.

It really is a unique perspective to take a report like that, and then claim that because it doesn’t rule out vaccines as a contributing factor, it must therefore be a contributing factor. That type of illogical thinking could be applied to any cause not explicitly ruled out, maybe they were all murdered, because it wasn’t specifically excluded as an explanation.

hometruths

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119419072#Comment_119419072

I didn't say it supports my view. I said the whole point of the article is nobody knows. The expert quoted in the article came up with five plausible hypotheses, all of which he says are unlikely. i.e he does not know.

While I admit dragon deaths are an unlikely cause, there could be a plethora of reasons for the increased mortality rate which have nothing to do with Covid/vaccines.

Are you prepared to give an example of the plethora of reasons for the increased mortality rate?

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119418949#Comment_119418949

Something significant that had happened??

How about a worldwide pandemic resulting in multiple lockdowns.

Have you any idea what the fall out from this would be? Medical procedures and checks not done. People's health deteriorated beyond normal levels.

Plus a very significant heat wave in central Spain and the associated fall out from that. Emergency services and first responders stretched beyond capacity, leading again to people's health being effected.

There is no conspiracy here. It's obvious common sense. Just cause the reasons haven't been recorded yet doesn't mean there's some huge singular "unknown" source that's killing people in such significant numbers.

That is in your head only, because you are a vaccine denier.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119419125#Comment_119419125

Using your logic, anything that isn’t mentioned in the report would be on a list of possible causes of death. Pick any non-Covid cause of death you want, if you want to include vaccines as a cause, then you also have to include the non-Covid cause you picked.

hometruths

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119419154#Comment_119419154

But that's silly to believe anything that isn't mentioned in the report as a possible cause, and I haven't said that.

You acknowledged that yourself, some are more likely than others. I just wondered if in saying there could be a plethora of reasons, there was one or some you thought to be more likely than others.

Are you saying that you think vaccines are definitely not a contributing factor to the trend in excess mortality?

hometruths

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119419135#Comment_119419135

Have you any idea what the fall out from this would be? Medical procedures and checks not done. People's health deteriorated beyond normal levels.

Interestingly the expert quoted in the EL PAIS article does not have much confidence in this theory.

sydthebeat

It is easy to believe the excess mortality is not caused by the vaccines, because there is ZERO evidence the vaccines are causing any significant mortality numbers. It's a proven fact that they are safer than most medicines

robinph

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119419196#Comment_119419196

What makes you think that vaccines have only caused an issue in Spain?

hometruths

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119419234#Comment_119419234

Nothing. No idea where you got the impression I think that.

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119419217#Comment_119419217

I suggest you read the article again.

"The exact causes cannot be known or attributed to a single specific reason. The heat of these weeks, the covid, the consequences of the pandemic [there are indirect ones of many kinds, such as socio-health, less access to the health system due to healthcare difficulties or fear, the isolation that many older people have suffered], can influence the fragility of vulnerable people in relation to all of the above. These are estimates that must be handled with caution, consolidate data and study in the future”, these sources point out."

You are trying to see something that is clearly and obviously not there.

You are doing this because you are biased against the vaccine and think there is some global conspiracy here (yet you wont come out directly and state this). Instead you suggest implicit non corporeal ethereal reasons for which you have ZERO evidence, and you try to argue that the lack of evidence against your ethereal suggesting is proof of plausibility. That's illogical and fantastical and not surprising from a vaccine denier.

hometruths

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119419284#Comment_119419284

I read the article again and found the bit that the expert quoted does not have much confidence in the theory:

Peiró's second hypothesis is one that is also pointed out by the sources consulted in the ISCIII: there are people who die due to the long lack of control in the management of chronic pathologies and the low detection of cancer in the last two years. “Again I find it difficult to fit in. On the one hand, I would expect to see more hospital admissions for decompensated diabetes, heart failure, and other classic chronic diseases. And the colleagues I ask tell me that they are not seeing this. They do say that there are more advanced cancers, but here the latency to death should be longer. It might explain some, but not all, of the excess mortality. And it should be accompanied by an uptick in emergency room hospitalizations due to chronic ailments,” he notes.

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119419305#Comment_119419305

First off one person "asking colleagues" isn't a very scientific way of assessing situation. The article clearly states that more in-depth data analysis must be done.

It also states there isn't one single reason for the excess.

So when perio says that this may account for some and not all excess, he's correct.

No one is suggesting there's one reason for this. What we're suggesting is there's a myriad of reasons, and that the vaccine isn't in any way a significant player in this

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119419305#Comment_119419305

Why didn't you include the rest of his comments???

* The third and fourth hypotheses have to do with the fact that the MoMo is not measuring the excesses well. “They are models and they are probably not built for such a long-lasting heat wave,” says the epidemiologist, who also believes that he could perhaps be underestimating mortality in general, beyond temperatures. “But I checked the model and it seemed correct. I don't know if it could have any effect, but not that much”, he assures.

* The fifth hypothesis, which is perhaps the most plausible for him, is a mixture of all the previous ones. “But in two years a lot of people have died. Sick people, very old people who had died (from non-covid causes) in the months following their death from covid. The so-called harvest effect (the excess mortality in one season advances the deaths of the next) should mean that at this point we have a defect (not an excess) of mortality, which further complicates the interpretation”, adds Peiró. In his opinion, "the sensible thing to do" would be to advance the coding and analysis of mortality by cause to try to verify what is happening, if anything, because "at this time, mortality becomes relevant data for decision-making ”.

robinph

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119419281#Comment_119419281

That the entire subject of the report is to do with excess deaths in Spain which haven't been seen elsewhere.

King Mob

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119419376#Comment_119419376

The same reason the vaccine only seemed to be making news readers and sports people keel over it seems.

hometruths

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119419368#Comment_119419368

I've already referenced the fact that he doesn't have much confidence in any of the five hypotheses he offers. From the comments you quoted:

* The third and fourth hypotheses have to do with the fact that the MoMo is not measuring the excesses well. “They are models and they are probably not built for such a long-lasting heat wave,” says the epidemiologist, who also believes that he could perhaps be underestimating mortality in general, beyond temperatures. “But I checked the model and it seemed correct. I don't know if it could have any effect, but not that much”, he assures.

* The fifth hypothesis, which is perhaps the most plausible for him, is a mixture of all the previous ones. “But in two years a lot of people have died. Sick people, very old people who had died (from non-covid causes) in the months following their death from covid. The so-called harvest effect (the excess mortality in one season advances the deaths of the next) should mean that at this point we have a defect (not an excess) of mortality, which further complicates the interpretation”, adds Peiró. In his opinion, "the sensible thing to do" would be to advance the coding and analysis of mortality by cause to try to verify what is happening, if anything, because "at this time, mortality becomes relevant data for decision-making ”.

Perhaps the most plausible, but he qualifies that by pointing out we should be seeing less deaths not more.

It's a mystery, which is why the only thing he says with confidence is that they need to "advance the coding and analysis of mortality by cause to try to verify what is happening, if anything, because "at this time, mortality becomes relevant data for decision-making ”.

hometruths

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119419345#Comment_119419345

No one is suggesting there's one reason for this. 

Including me.

What we're suggesting is there's a myriad of reasons, and that the vaccine isn't in any way a significant player in this

Good for you. But I don't share your confidence in that view, and have no idea why you are so sure of it.

King Mob

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119418949#Comment_119418949

Nope, both you and the grifters this story was shared by avoid asserting positives directly because you are "just asking questions". This enables you to make the implication that these deaths have something to do with the vaccine, but when you're challenged you can backpeddle and avoid providing any actual evidence.

There is no evidence that links these deaths to the vaccines. You believing it's plausible is not evidence. You are not an expert and you are highly biased towards anto-vaccine explanations, so your level of plausibility is suspect.

You've been asked several times to explain what evidence you have or if you have any evidence. You won't state the truth about this. You aren't able to simply state you've nothing to support the connection.

And as always you ignore all of the context around this. Like the fact that there's been no other evidence that the vaccine is killing people at rates that would account for these excess deaths. There's no evidence that the vaccine is causing these deaths in other places. If the vaccine was the cause, then these things would be very clear and apparent. They are not.

The vaccines are heavily scrutinised by tons of organisations, so it's not plausible or rational to suggest that they just missed this level of death in the vaccine or were somehow unable to make the same connection you did. And we also know that you will not outright state that there's a global cover up of this, so that possibility can be excluded also. And in the absence of another explanation that we all know that you will never attempt to provide, we can conclude there's no rational explanation for this.

This shows that the vaccines causing these deaths is not plausible as an explanation.

hometruths

I guess if this guy had got his way in August 2021, we might have more conclusive evidence, one way or the other:

The chief pathologist at the University of Heidelberg, Peter Schirmacher, is pushing for many more autopsies of vaccinated people. In addition to corona deaths, the corpses of people who die in connection with a vaccination should also be examined more frequently

The reason he wanted to do many more, is because of the ones that were completed, he came to some alarming conclusions:

More than 40 people have already been autopsied who died within two weeks after a vaccination. Schirmacher assumes that 30 to 40 percent of them died from the vaccination. In his view, the frequency of fatal vaccination consequences is underestimated - a politically explosive statement in times when the vaccination campaign is losing momentum, the Delta variant is spreading rapidly and restrictions on non-vaccinated people are being discussed.

Of course there were no shortage of people to tell him he was wrong. But this is one of the world's top pathologists, with the expertise to reply:

Schirmacher insists on his opinion. "The colleagues are definitely wrong because they cannot judge this specific question competently," he reacted. He doesn't want to spread panic and is by no means an opponent of vaccination, says the professor, who claims to have been vaccinated against Corona himself. Vaccination is an essential part of the fight against the virus, he clarifies. But you have to weigh the medical reasons for vaccination individually. From his point of view, the "individual protection considerations" are overlaid by the idea of ​​quickly vaccinating society.

And within his profession of pathology in Germany, he was not some lone crank going against the consensus:

The Federal Association of German Pathologists is also pushing for more autopsies of vaccinated people. This is the only way that connections between deaths and vaccinations can be ruled out or proven, says Johannes Friemann, head of the autopsy working group in the association. However, from his point of view, there are still too few autopsies to speak of an unreported number. "You don't know anything yet." General practitioners and health authorities must be made aware. The federal states would have to instruct the health authorities to order autopsies on site. The Federal Association of Pathologists had already requested this in a letter to Health Minister Jens Spahn (CDU) in March. He remained unanswered, says Friemann.

https://www.sueddeutsche.de/wissen/wissenschaft-heidelberg-chef-pathologe-pocht-auf-mehr-obduktionen-von-geimpften-dpa.urn-newsml-dpa-com-20090101-210801-99-647273

Dohnjoe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119418949#Comment_119418949

If you were genuinely seeking information or were concerned about medical treatment, logically you wouldn't be seeking it on a conspiracy theory forum.

Logically and by definition, as a layperson, you don't know more than the world's expert consensus

In terms of probability, you haven't spotted something they haven't.

Any poster with an ounce of logic can see you have no objectivity on this subject.

Your entire position is illogical.

hometruths

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119419800#Comment_119419800

Any poster with an ounce of logic can see you have no objectivity on this subject.

And likewise.

patnor1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119419435#Comment_119419435

Unbelievable stuff. Absolute fanatical tunnel vision where no other way is possible. Perhaps some sort of a buyers remorse?

King Mob

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119419826#Comment_119419826

Yea, the "nuh uh, you are too" tactic doesn't really work, or address any of the points raised against you man.

You started off on this thread under the pretense of not being an anti-vaxxer.

No one buys this.

EyesClosed

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119419840#Comment_119419840

Buyers remorse? But the vaccine has been shown to be overwhelming safe.

If it was killing people... You think you'd be able to show that.

King Mob

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119419840#Comment_119419840

Nope. That's more you trying to assign beliefs to people to explain away why no one has been convinced by your conspiracy theories.

"It can't be that I'm wrong and my arguments are bad, it must bet that you guys are all fanatics."

But again, you ignore the actual arguments that people have been presenting.

It's not plausible to suggest that the vaccines are the cause because:

1. There's no evidence that they are.
2. That evidence should be clear and obvious and being reported on.
3. it's not possible that experts and organisations have missed this while you guys somehow caught it using no evidence, education or anything more than twitter.
4. it's not possible that there's a global conspiracy to cover it up, as none of you guys will even directly suggest that.

Which of these points do you disagree with?

King Mob

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119419899#Comment_119419899

Also, I got my vaccine and booster for free...

Dohnjoe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119419826#Comment_119419826

You've just admitted to having no objectivity on the matter.

Also, since I am reflecting the views of the consensus of medical science on this, you're equating that on the same level as your own personal opinions.

"My personal openly biased opinion is greater than their science" - narcissists everywhere.

Dohnjoe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119419840#Comment_119419840

Absolutely fanatical tunnel vision that there's something, anything wrong with vaccines. Validating anyone who expresses any sort of anti-vax belief, even if it's completely contradictory, even if it's some batshiat insane claim they are killing huge numbers, or that silly-beyond-belief conspiracies are occurring

What I can only presume are adults, playing make-believe about medicine, on a conspiracy forum, having to post here because their views are too idiotic for any normal forums.

Being so deluded that they can't see any of this and believe they know more than doctors, physicians, scientists, experts, virologists

That type of fanaticism?

King Mob

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119419951#Comment_119419951

Also, based on the vague, wishy washy definition we've been getting all doctors and experts are also "extreme pro vaxxers."

patnor1011

Sure, it is ABV disease (Anything But Vaccines) which is causing injuries and excess death. I do have no problem with people on this thread who do not want to see it. Multiple insurance companies begs to differ.

With this unprecedented scale of vaccination in the middle of pandemic using new technology which was not tested enough (compared to how other vaccines were developed and tested), no wonder there is more injuries and also deaths.

https://frettin.is/2022/07/22/107-tilkynningar-um-aukaverkanir-medal-barna-thar-af-11-alvarlegar-hvad-thydir-thad-i-raun/

hometruths

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119419951#Comment_119419951

I'm a believer in evidence based medicine. But sadly the events of the vaccine roll out have shaken that belief, and in my confidence on the views of the consensus of medical science. That consensus has been shown to be driven by commercial interests and an industry that suppresses negative trial results and fails to report adverse events.

I will happily admit my objectivity on the subject has suffered the longer I spend in this thread listening to the desperate clutching at straws and deflection that goes on here.

But my opinion has not changed much, it has just been strengthened. I have always said that I am emphatically not against covid vaccines for elderly, immunocompromised etc.

But what I am very anti is the relentless pressure to get every man, woman and child vaccinated regardless of the individual risk/benefit profile. And also the divide and conquer strategy, which appears to have been significantly more successful than the vaccine. And the constant revisionism.

If that is narcissistic, in your opinion, then so be it.

EyesClosed

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119420036#Comment_119420036

Link dump for yet another independent "truth" right wing media site... Yea I don't trust them

robinph

I'm a believer in evidence based medicine.

Yet provide zero evidence to back up your claims regarding vaccines.

King Mob

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119420069#Comment_119420069

But you keep ignoring all of the anti-vaxx stuff coming from your pals.

And when you're asked about that stuff, you either pretend it doesn't exist, or when you do dain to comment on it, you agree with it.

Even now, you're supporting pat's claims with one hand while saying you don't agree with the other.

Igotadose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119420123#Comment_119420123

Not sure the OP understands what evidence-based medicine means. Would love to hear his/her definition.

Dohnjoe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119420069#Comment_119420069

Dude..

You're on a forum for people who believe that space travel is fake, that Covid was a big conspiracy, that there's a secret world government trying to enslave us, not only that you're in the same thread as them, and alongside them with the same views, validating each other.

At what point do you question your personal beliefs, because if not at that extreme point, I doubt there is any hope.

hometruths

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119420123#Comment_119420123

I've provided evidence for everything I have claimed as a fact - eg the vaccine received EUA specifically to prevent symptomatic COVID infection, and not to prevent hospitalisation and death.

And I have acknowledge everything that is without evidence and merely my opinion, and is worth no more or less than your own opinion.

King Mob

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119420188#Comment_119420188

So that's about as close to an admission we'll get that there's no evidence linking the deaths in Spain to covid...

Also, no, you didn't present evidence for that claim. You were substituting your opinion on what was said while ignoring all of the explanations being spoon fed to you as well as all of the context.

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119420188#Comment_119420188

Your opinion is worth a hell of a lot less than the medical and scientific professionals who say otherwise than you

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119419787#Comment_119419787

The numbers are bonkers.

Look at the population of Germany.

Look at how many vaccines they rolled out.

This guy is linking 30 - 40 percent of all autopsied deaths to the vaccines.

Those numbers map to huge numbers of deaths.

He took a wrong turn somewhere there.

I suspect this is why we've never heard of similar results from anyone else, or seen the study that supported this claim.

hometruths

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119420220#Comment_119420220

Sure but to give two examples, my opinion on the possibility of vaccines being a contributory factor in some deaths is shared by Peter Schirmacher, German Pathologist I quoted earlier.

And my opinion that vaccinating everybody regardless of age is unnecessary, and potentially harmful, is shared by Dr Martin Kulldorff, who previously was a Professor of Medicine in the Division of Pharmacoepidemiology and Pharmacoeconomics at Harvard Medical School

One thing that I believe is a key aspect of COVID-19 is that while anybody can get infected, there is more than a 1000-fold difference in the risk of dying from it among the oldest versus the youngest. This is something we’ve known from the very beginning in the spring and winter of 2020. For older people, this vaccine is very important, because we know the vaccine can prevent death for this group. However, for younger people, it is not so clear cut, because for older people, even if there are small risks from the vaccine that we may not know about yet, the benefits far outweigh the risks. In the case of children, we don't know these risks yet as it takes time to learn the safety profile of a vaccine, but we do know there's a very minuscule risk for mortality from COVID-19 for this group.

It's not clear what the risks and benefits are for younger people, and I think that public health authorities have made a huge mistake by pushing it for everybody instead of just focusing on older people. For example, there have been mandates for people working to get vaccinated, and the bill also mandated for students and some children too as well. However, the people who really need it are retired people and for them, there are no mandates. The focus should have been on reaching older people and by making a huge controversy with mandates, and I believe that a lot of older people refused the vaccine because of that. I think that those vaccine fanatics who have been pushing this vaccine have actually damaged vaccine confidence in the country. Not just for the COVID-19 vaccine, but other very important vaccines such as the measles vaccine, polio vaccine, and so on.

http://www.hhpronline.org/articles/2022/5/7/rebuilding-trust-after-covid-with-dr-martin-kulldorff

hometruths

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119420229#Comment_119420229

This guy is linking 30 - 40 percent of all autopsied deaths to the vaccines.

No he is linking 30-40% of the 40 autopsies he did on deaths within two weeks of vaccination to the vaccines. Quite a significant difference.

King Mob

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119420258#Comment_119420258

Ok.

And all of the other doctors, professionals and experts who were behind the effort to get people vaccinated?

What about their opinion? Why trust this one doctor over them? Why do you trust him over them?

King Mob

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119420269#Comment_119420269

So at best, that's 16 people who be believes were possibly killed by the vaccine.

What's the issue?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119420298#Comment_119420298

16 who he ASSUMES were killed by the vaccine. He doesn't have any proof.

Language is important.

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119420269#Comment_119420269

What were his findings for the next 40 he did? Why haven't we heard of them???

It is bonkers. So what stopped two weeks later? They were vaccinating for months in Germany.

The numbers don't add up. The story doesn't add up.

If he did the autopsies in the 'study' claimed, he should have documented proof and evidence that can be shown to other pathologists.

So where is this study?