Why are trade unions declining?

Exceltrup

I know a few people in their 20s who are in typically union dominated industries, and it seems that youth membership is virtually non-existant. Why are unions declining?

AndrewJRenko

Exceltrup wrote: »

I know a few people in their 20s who are in typically union dominated industries, and it seems that youth membership is virtually non-existant. Why are unions declining?

Are they actually declining?

Dyr

Because their subs are overpriced and they're generally useless. Run by lads like Brendan Ogle who just treat them as slush funds for their political nonsense.

Because they're run by people and people are ****. :pac:

My dad can recall just about every job he had there'd be a mouthy fella who was all about the union, rights, giving out about absolutely everything. Once they became Steward or higher they'd fall in line and downplay everything, they had a position to protect all of a sudden.

On top of that the unions are obsessed with disruption and politics rather than workers rights. The low level of legal protections we actually have in this country is surprising to a lot of people when they find out. A lot of what people assume are rights are just custom and practice.

jimmycrackcorm

Our labour laws are very strong with plenty of worker protection. E.g. you can't be just fired off the cuff without due process.

So unions are only effective when they can hold the public ransom or get public support. Witness the Luas workers getting cushy money because of the stranglehold over the states tram assets, vs the same unions who had to eventually give up on bus Eireann because there were private alternatives.

AndrewJRenko

Here's some actual evidence, on the off-chance that anyone is interested in facts over anecdote:

From https://www.worker-participation.eu/National-Industrial-Relations/Countries/Ireland/Trade-Unions

Union density – the proportion of employees who are union members – has been as much affected by the changes in overall employment in Ireland as by changes in union membership itself. The figures from the Central Statistical Office show that during the employment boom in the late 1990s and the early 2000s the number of union members rose by about 100,000, but union density fell – from 46% in 1994 to 30% in 2007 – as unions found it difficult to break into many of the growing sectors of the economy.

In the economic crisis that began in 2008, union density initially went up – rising to 32% in 2010 – as union membership fell less rapidly than overall employment. However, from 2011 to 2016 both union membership and union density fell, with membership dropping from 498,000 to 416,000 while density fell more sharply from 32% in 2011 to 23% in 2016.

In the most recent period, union membership has again risen – to 461,000 in 2018, but density has increased only slightly to 24%, as overall employment has also grown.

The ICTU figures reflect this change as its membership in in the Republic of Ireland grew gradually to a peak of 612,676 in 2009 but has since fallen by 15.5% to 517,830 in 2019.[4]

SupaCat95

Bambi wrote: »

Because their subs are overpriced and they're generally useless. Run by lads like Brendan Ogle who just treat them as slush funds for their political nonsense.

In all fairness you are never going to see lads like Brendan Ogle or Jimmy Kelly in power again. To have a strike like Waterford Crystal in the 1980's (look them up they were legendary, they held the city ransom for nearly a year on both occasions), you must be able to do financial damage and have the reserves to hold out longer than management. Those times dont exist anymore. There is NO blue collar industry in Ireland anymore that would have to reserves to hold out that long. For what Siptu won in Waterford, there have been very few MNCs that dare invest in the same scale as Waterford Crystal in the 1980's.

It wasnt the Waterford Crystal executives that suffered or the workforce, it was the rest of the city when the main source of income dried up. Blue collar unions are dead and gone.

El_Duderino 09

I'm a union member and it's pretty good. They do all the pay negotiation and they handle lots of other issues. Lots of things don't become a big fight because the union just deals with them so it's easy to overlook their role.

I'm mates with one of the main reps and he's a man I would trust with it. He's very effective but has no interest in power or the other things people criticise union people for.

I also find it interesting that people give out that unions are bothe terrible and impotent. It's like the woody Allen joke about the restaurant that's terrible: the food is inedible, and such small portions.

Workers rights are in recession. Wages don't grow anymore, and union membership is declining. Its a bad combination.

Two reasons.

An absence of the right to be represented, as exists in many countries in the E.U., means that unions have limited authority in the (growing) private sector.

Secondly, in the public sector, unions have made a name for themselves as being disruptive, and actively harmful to service provision. Nobody likes to talk about how unions have hamstrung access to basic services like healthcare, but healthcare unions, in particular, constantly engage in what can only be described as an attack on the provision of public services. They have earned some public resentment. It's a pity.

There's more than the unions to blame, in fairness. The prevailing culture is one that uses the above to exaggerate any legitimate argument against unions.

I am a member of SIPTU and have always been a member of one union or other. Overall, I think unions do more good than harm, but I would not at all be surprised to learn that membership is falling.

Exceltrup

I don't think wages are stagnant, in fact before Covid19 Irelands wage growth was one of the highest in the EU. I think the difference is that now the most effective way to get a payrise is to move job, whereas in the past it was incremental with time served etc.

uptherebels

Exceltrup wrote: »

I know a few people in their 20s who are in typically union dominated industries, and it seems that youth membership is virtually non-existant. Why are unions declining?

well I've only worked in one business where there was union. It was basically used to look after the conditions and pay of the long term members. We "had" to join the union and pay the dues but when it came to any negotiations the lifers were looked after first, basically a two tier system. All in it together only when it suited them.

Rustyman101

SupaCat95 wrote: »

In all fairness you are never going to see lads like Brendan Ogle or Jimmy Kelly in power again. To have a strike like Waterford Crystal in the 1980's (look them up they were legendary, they held the city ransom for nearly a year on both occasions), you must be able to do financial damage and have the reserves to hold out longer than management. Those times dont exist anymore. There is NO blue collar industry in Ireland anymore that would have to reserves to hold out that long. For what Siptu won in Waterford, there have been very few MNCs that dare invest in the same scale as Waterford Crystal in the 1980's.

It wasnt the Waterford Crystal executives that suffered or the workforce, it was the rest of the city when the main source of income dried up. Blue collar unions are dead and gone.

14 weeks on strike, i know plenty of the workforce who suffered and for a long time after as well, there was a v militant group there at the time, if i told you the catalyst for that strike you would not believe it ! too their defence they did sort the pension debacle after the closure, no worker would have had the funds to bring the case to Europe, the union was very much on the back foot after 1990, they actually had very little hand in the closure in 09, multiple factors, product went out of vogue, poor acquisitions over the years, bad management, dilution of the brand, cosco and other poor marketing. millennium was a dead cat bounce, made a lot of money around 2000, so unions pros n cons, necessary evil ? who knows

PommieBast

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Secondly, in the public sector, unions have made a name for themselves as being disruptive, and actively harmful to service provision. Nobody likes to talk about how unions have hamstrung access to basic services like healthcare, but healthcare unions, in particular, constantly engage in what can only be described as an attack on the provision of public services. They have earned some public resentment. It's a pity.

The way that INIS has shut down completely and is in turn costing people their jobs pretty much sums up why the unions are so hated.



Incidentally there's a piece in the FT (firewalled) about unionisation of the gig economy, where the established unions have been shunned in favour of up-start ones.

Randle P. McMurphy

PommieBast wrote: »

The way that INIS has shut down completely and is in turn costing people their jobs pretty much sums up why the unions are so hated.

Did you link to the wrong article? There's nothing in this one about unions causing the backlog. It seems to be about the level 5 restrictions

"This is because the Passport Service has paused most of its operations in line with Level 5 restrictions currently in place in Ireland since late December"

"The Department of Foreign Affairs has said it will resume operations once the country returns to Level 4 restrictions and that any backlog will be cleared within “six to eight weeks”.

blanch152

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Two reasons.

An absence of the right to be represented, as exists in many countries in the E.U., means that unions have limited authority in the (growing) private sector.

Secondly, in the public sector, unions have made a name for themselves as being disruptive, and actively harmful to service provision. Nobody likes to talk about how unions have hamstrung access to basic services like healthcare, but healthcare unions, in particular, constantly engage in what can only be described as an attack on the provision of public services. They have earned some public resentment. It's a pity.

There's more than the unions to blame, in fairness. The prevailing culture is one that uses the above to exaggerate any legitimate argument against unions.

I am a member of SIPTU and have always been a member of one union or other. Overall, I think unions do more good than harm, but I would not at all be surprised to learn that membership is falling.

There is an additional factor that you have failed to consider - increasingly unions have been targetted by parties like Sinn Fein and PBP as ways of increasing political influence. Many people have been elected to union positions with a political agenda and not one attuned to workers wishes.

One of the few things that is keeping unions alive is their income continuance plans in the public sector.

PommieBast

Randle P. McMurphy wrote: »

Did you link to the wrong article? There's nothing in this one about unions causing the backlog. It seems to be about the level 5 restrictions

The only reason for them shutting down completely rather than operating at reduced capacity is the unions. There is no other explaination as to why I am still waiting for an Irish passport yet I got my British one renewed within 5 days.


Maybe I am just being reactionary

Mrs OBumble

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

Or labor laws are very strong with plenty of worker protection. E.g. you can't be just fired off the cuff without due process.

Eh?

No paid sick leave. Probation. Redundabcy without compensation up to the first two years of service. Only 9 public holidays. Only 4 weeks holidays.

Not what I'd call strong.

PommieBast

blanch152 wrote: »

There is an additional factor that you have failed to consider - increasingly unions have been targetted by parties like Sinn Fein and PBP as ways of increasing political influence. Many people have been elected to union positions with a political agenda and not one attuned to workers wishes.

When I was at university (in the UK) I saw how the Students Union and the NUS was basically a training ground for the Labour Party. Real killer was how many former NUS presidents went on to become MPs and voted for tuition fees. Only difference between this and workplace unions I have seen is a bit more subtlety.

TheValeyard

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Eh?

No paid sick leave. Probation. Redundabcy without compensation up to the first two years of service. Only 9 public holidays. Only 4 weeks holidays.

Not what I'd call strong.

Yeah unions help keep employers in check whose only goal is to maximise their profit and minimise the expense. Without unions society would be back to the race to the bottom.

blanch152

blanch152 wrote: »

There is an additional factor that you have failed to consider - increasingly unions have been targetted by parties like Sinn Fein and PBP as ways of increasing political influence. Many people have been elected to union positions with a political agenda and not one attuned to workers wishes.

This sounds like a complaint that is local to you, tbf. Let's not swap anecdotes, because mine would be as unreliable as yours (with respect).

I'm not aware or any evidence of unions being infiltrated by SF or PBF, although admittedly, I'd be surprised to find a Blueshirt amongst us.

jimmycrackcorm

El_Duderino 09 wrote:

Workers rights are in recession. Wages don't grow anymore, and union membership is declining. Its a bad combination.

I've two siblings who made carer changes from low paying jobs to successful alternative careers after retraining later in life. Nobody is forced to stay in a low paying job. They choose to

Mrs OBumble wrote:

No paid sick leave. Probation. Redundabcy without compensation up to the first two years of service. Only 9 public holidays. Only 4 weeks holidays.

None of these have anything to do with unions. The only thing that unions do is protect bad practices. That's why you never see a bad teacher get fired.

MrMusician18

I know Union membership in the PS if falling, particularly among the young recent recruits. I couldn't blame them since it was the same unions that sold out their future members to protect the conditions of the current

rossie1977

In a society where huge corporations dominate and control vast amounts of the overall wealth then union membership and worker rights will erode over time. Just look at the US as an example.

coinop

Bambi wrote: »

...Run by lads like Brendan Ogle...

What an odious, despicable little c*nt. I could tell a few stories about Brendan but I don't want to get banned. His lack of friends in his personal life speaks volumes.

AndrewJRenko

PommieBast wrote: »

When I was at university (in the UK) I saw how the Students Union and the NUS was basically a training ground for the Labour Party. Real killer was how many former NUS presidents went on to become MPs and voted for tuition fees. Only difference between this and workplace unions I have seen is a bit more subtlety.

Must have been shocking all right to find that people involved in left wing politics in college continued to be involved in left wing politics after college.

AndrewJRenko

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

I've two siblings who made carer changes from low paying jobs to successful alternative careers after retraining later in life. Nobody is forced to stay in a low paying job. They choose to

As long as we have minimum wage jobs, such as those staff who look after our toddlers and our elderly parents, we'll have minimum wage employees. No one chooses minimum wage as a preference. Many people have limited options and limited opportunities and limited confidence.

FTA69

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

I've two siblings who made carer changes from low paying jobs to successful alternative careers after retraining later in life. Nobody is forced to stay in a low paying job. They choose to




None of these have anything to do with unions. The only thing that unions do is protect bad practices. That's why you never see a bad teacher get fired.

Rubbish from start to finish. I often hear this canard - “why don’t you just get a better job?”. Do you think everyone in our society can become a computer programme or a barrister? Who then will collect the bins, cook food, staff our supermarkets, care for our elderly, work in our industries? Basically what you’re suggesting here is that the people who do these jobs are somehow undeserving of a decent wage and living - ironic considering the low-paid jobs are often the most socially necessary. There is astronomical amounts of wealth in society today, more and more it is concentrated at the very top and more and more people are struggling to make ends meet. That’s wrong.

As for your second point; all of those things have everything to do with unions. How do you think they were achieved? Stuff like sick pay, the weekend, limits on the working day were won only via collective struggle by working people coming together to demand better. The likes of you back in the day would no doubt have been arguing against them and telling the plebs to be happy with their lot.

These sort of things are also being squeezed hugely by employers who can get away with taking the p*ss and it’s something that needs to be responded to again with collective action.

FTA69

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Must have been shocking all right to find that people involved in left wing politics in college continued to be involved in left wing politics after college.

I wouldn’t call them left wing; most of the NUS lot in Labour are borderline sociopaths and self-interested careerists who have no intention of challenging the political or economic status quo.

Richard Hillman

They could be a force for good but they get involved in such nonsense. They have also been replaced by NGOs in terms of having any political influence.

Workers are being treated like **** in the likes of Retail, Finance, hospitality and construction. Deliveroo drivers, they could do with a hand. Not LUAS drivers, Bus drivers (apart from safety from customers) and teachers. If bus drivers wanted to go on strike because of driver safety, they'd get support.

They just don't know how or when to pick their battles.

Don't get me started on the Teachers Unions recently, **** me read the room.

AndrewJRenko

Richard Hillman wrote: »

They could be a force for good but they get involved in such nonsense. They have also been replaced by NGOs in terms of having any political influence.

Workers are being treated like **** in the likes of Retail, Finance, hospitality and construction. Deliveroo drivers, they could do with a hand. Not LUAS drivers, Bus drivers (apart from safety from customers) and teachers. If bus drivers wanted to go on strike because of driver safety, they'd get support.

They just don't know how or when to pick their battles.

Don't get me started on the Teachers Unions recently, **** me read the room.

If only anyone in the union movement had spotted the issues for delivery riders before you, eh?

https://www.dublininquirer.com/2021/03/31/as-deliveroo-workers-push-for-better-work-conditions-there-s-debate-about-how-to-organise

AndrewJRenko

FTA69 wrote: »

I wouldn’t call them left wing; most of the NUS lot in Labour are borderline sociopaths and self-interested careerists who have no intention of challenging the political or economic status quo.

Amazing how people keep voting them into representative positions so. What's wrong with being careerist btw?

FTA69

I work as a union organiser in England and could write about this forever to be honest so I’ll try and keep it as short as I can.

For my own union, the decline in industry is a major reason behind the decline in numbers covered by collective bargaining; instead there is a rise in precarious, atomised and tertiary sector service jobs. That’s a product of neoliberal capitalism in the west and an economic process that is very hard to acclimatise to. Financialisation over industrialisation is always going to affect blue-collar unions.

Aside from that I think the main reason unions are floundering is the fact they’re clinging to this nonsense idea of partnership. Working people are facing unprecedented attacks on their terms and conditions, working longer and harder for less money while wages across society have been stagnant for decades. There has also been a massive rise in precarity alongside other social pressures such as the decline in home ownership, privatisation of public services and high rents. A massive race to the bottom has been initiated and meanwhile unions for the most part delude themselves there is some two way street going on here and act almost as mediators as opposed to challenging this stuff head on.

In other words, unions have become corporatised and often conduct themselves as some sort of professional outside third body rather than the expression of the members themselves. They need to be more grassroots orientated, be more aggressive in driving up pay and have an organising strategy that takes in workers who are fed up and want to fight back. And the proof is in the pudding; here in the UK the unions who are growing are the most militant and democratic ones while the ones that are dying on their ass are the most conciliatory and business-like.

FTA69

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Amazing how people keep voting them into representative positions so. What's wrong with being careerist btw?

Well from a left wing point of view if your only goal as an MP is to advance your own political career and personal ambition as opposed to advocating for change and seeking to empower people to do it then that’s a very negative thing. Hence why lots of people who were student politicians ended up voting for privatisation and wars in the Middle East.

Wanderer78

Exceltrup wrote:

I know a few people in their 20s who are in typically union dominated industries, and it seems that youth membership is virtually non-existant. Why are unions declining?

Common across the western world, particularly since the neoliberal era, demonising union movements has worked, it can clearly be seen here to, particularly with public sector unions. And what have workers gotten from this? Only lower wage inflation, significant increase in the precariousness of employment and productivity levels, it's worked out well for us I guess!

Dyr

SupaCat95 wrote: »

In all fairness you are never going to see lads like Brendan Ogle or Jimmy Kelly in power again..

All thats coming through the ranks with full time trade union offiicials now are political types who work in the public sector, not a notion of life in the real world.

Mad_maxx

Unions are a good thing broadly speaking , worker's should have representation, however, politicians should not cow tow to union demands at every turn as happened with Bertie Ahern pre crash

Politicians serve voters, not union chiefs who happen to have the backing of a large number of vested interests

Dyr

FTA69 wrote: »

Aside from that I think the main reason unions are floundering is the fact they’re clinging to this nonsense idea of partnership. Working people are facing unprecedented attacks on their terms and conditions, working longer and harder for less money while wages across society have been stagnant for decades. There has also been a massive rise in precarity alongside other social pressures such as the decline in home ownership, privatisation of public services and high rents. A massive race to the bottom has been initiated and meanwhile unions for the most part delude themselves there is some two way street going on here and act almost as mediators as opposed to challenging this stuff head on.
.

Yeah, it's basically everyones fault but the unions that they're a busted flush. That's why you can't bring in members, an inability to look in the mirror and take responsibility.

Unions are packed with idealogues and time servers pushing the same tired old tactics from 30 years ago. People make choices based on impressions and when Union officials come across as incompetent then no-ones interested in forking out a monthly fee. The only ones who are actually motivated are the political headbangers and they're a liability.

Youse still wheeling that inflatable rat out for building site disputes? 30 years on like.

Eric Cartman

uptherebels wrote: »

well I've only worked in one business where there was union. It was basically used to look after the conditions and pay of the long term members. We "had" to join the union and pay the dues but when it came to any negotiations the lifers were looked after first, basically a two tier system. All in it together only when it suited them.

This is it, if youre 55, stuck in your ways and at the same job for the last 20 years, the union will shirld you from having to do extra work or losing your job if you cant be arsed figuring out how to use new software, ofcourse the work still needs doing so these people are just screwing over the young

Jimbob1977

1. Many companies have established employer-employee forums to discuss matters before they become serious.... in a bid to dissuade union membership

2. Rightly or wrongly... unions are perceived as intransigent. Finding fault with everything. Sometimes holding laughable and untenable positions. Headed up by idealists and lazy people that would endanger your jobs on a point of principle.

There is a need for unions, if they are sensible rather than infantile

FTA69

Bambi wrote: »

Yeah, it's basically everyones fault but the unions that they're a busted flush. That's why you can't bring in members, an inability to look in the mirror and take responsibility.

Unions are packed with idealogues and time servers pushing the same tired old tactics from 30 years ago. People make choices based on impressions and when Union officials come across as incompetent then no-ones interested in forking out a monthly fee. The only ones who are actually motivated are the political headbangers and they're a liability.

Youse still wheeling that inflatable rat out for building site disputes? 30 years on like.

You clearly didn’t read my post because I outlined how the approach within trade unions themselves has led to their decline.

BanditLuke

TheValeyard wrote: »

Yeah unions help keep employers in check whose only goal is to maximise their profit and minimise the expense. Without unions society would be back to the race to the bottom.

Back to? It is in a full on race to the bottom at present. Bus drivers, truck drivers, airline pilots, mechanics etc... are just a few to name who's wages have decreased or stagnated over the last 20 years. A lot of unions have done the square root of fcuk all to stop it.

Unions can be very dangerous for workers. Especially if being encouraged by external union reps trying to make a name for themselves. One such union rep was infamous in the Midwest.

One particular company well paying for skilled labour in a very niche area. The company claimed inability to pay an increase. The rep encouraged the workers to strike. The company folded. Now, it wasn't all the reps fault. It needs to be remembered that older workers with a lot of years service benefited from redundancy. But a lot of those workers (I suspect) would not have seen again the colour of the money they were on. Plus, it was one of those jobs where sons followed dad's into jobs. So, not only were they led to lose their jobs, but possibly the next generation.

Also, strange things can happen when unions get involved. Here's an example. One person is pleading with management for another person to be taken on in their department to help with workload, but the unions (there's two) are against more hires until a condition is met.

As management do you laugh or cry in that situation?

end of the road

Deleted User wrote: »

Also, strange things can happen when unions get involved. Here's an example. One person is pleading with management for another person to be taken on in their department to help with workload, but the unions (there's two) are against more hires until a condition is met.

As management do you laugh or cry in that situation?

neither because it doesn't happen.

end of the road

end of the road wrote: »

neither because it doesn't happen.

It has. You can decide to disbelieve it if you like. That's fair enough.

Workers Council model and representation on Board for employees as done in Germany is better than Union. It is certainly less confrontational and doesn't feel like the Game of Thrones scenario where Unions are using workers like pawns to advance their own agendas which don't align with the interests of the workers in that particular company. It prevents Unions from killing the Goose that laid the Golden Egg as they are wont to do.

ILoveYourVibes

Honestly if they are I think its because they don't have good leaders.

Three things you need to be a great trade unionist ...balls ...character ...and a brilliant ability to argue.

You don't even see one of those in people these days.

Plus the people who want to be stewarts etc ..are usually young people just out of college who should be stepping aside for people with experience. The young people want to take over.

Also and I personally think this is a BIG factor and the biggest con in the corporate world.

For some reason .....young people going to work for the first time in big companies ..seem to think that HR ....now does some of the work a union would do for them. Whereas the older people working in that same company are wiser and KNOW that HR has a mole in their department spying on them.

HR spies are very VERY real thing.

I have spken to many people who really think HR is there to help employees settle disbutes bleh bleh.

I will tell you this ....what side of the table is HR on when the union negotiates with a company?? exactly ..the union negotiates with hr.





https://www.irishtimes.com/news/power-of-unions-has-crumbled-with-rise-of-hr-1.962110


A lot of people IN trade unions saw this was happening and switched sides. They had EXACTLY the right skills HR wanted ...great industrial relations and an ability to argue. A lot of it is ...conditioning through the environment. Which is all highly orchestrated.

People used to TAKE action over things and stewards would be called IN to talk about any changes. ...now they get chirpy anon memos telling them AFTER the changes have taken place.

Weirdly HR seem to be taking over EVERYTHING ...some HR depts even do payroll now ...

AndrewJRenko

Deleted User wrote: »

Workers Council model and representation on Board for employees as done in Germany is better than Union. It is certainly less confrontational and doesn't feel like the Game of Thrones scenario where Unions are using workers like pawns to advance their own agendas which don't align with the interests of the workers in that particular company. It prevents Unions from killing the Goose that laid the Golden Egg as they are wont to do.

You forget that unions are controlled by the members through democratic processes. Members vote for Council members, and vote on resolutions every year.

Jimbob1977 wrote: »

1. Many companies have established employer-employee forums to discuss matters before they become serious.... in a bid to dissuade union membership

2. Rightly or wrongly... unions are perceived as intransigent. Finding fault with everything. Sometimes holding laughable and untenable positions. Headed up by idealists and lazy people that would endanger your jobs on a point of principle.

There is a need for unions, if they are sensible rather than infantile

Eric Cartman wrote: »

This is it, if youre 55, stuck in your ways and at the same job for the last 20 years, the union will shirld you from having to do extra work or losing your job if you cant be arsed figuring out how to use new software, ofcourse the work still needs doing so these people are just screwing over the young

You've been watching too many 1970 UK comedies lads. This bears no relation to what's happening in the real world in Ireland today.

Bambi wrote: »

All thats coming through the ranks with full time trade union offiicials now are political types who work in the public sector, not a notion of life in the real world.

Well, if they're full time trade union officials, then by definition, they don't work in the public sector.

FTA69 wrote: »

Well from a left wing point of view if your only goal as an MP is to advance your own political career and personal ambition as opposed to advocating for change and seeking to empower people to do it then that’s a very negative thing. Hence why lots of people who were student politicians ended up voting for privatisation and wars in the Middle East.

If your only goal is your own career, the people who vote for you tend to see through this fairly quickly. So you need to manage your own career and personal ambition while advocating for change and seeking to empower people.

AndrewJRenko

Deleted User wrote: »

Unions can be very dangerous for workers. Especially if being encouraged by external union reps trying to make a name for themselves. One such union rep was infamous in the Midwest.

One particular company well paying for skilled labour in a very niche area. The company claimed inability to pay an increase. The rep encouraged the workers to strike. The company folded. Now, it wasn't all the reps fault. It needs to be remembered that older workers with a lot of years service benefited from redundancy. But a lot of those workers (I suspect) would not have seen again the colour of the money they were on. Plus, it was one of those jobs where sons followed dad's into jobs. So, not only were they led to lose their jobs, but possibly the next generation.

Also, strange things can happen when unions get involved. Here's an example. One person is pleading with management for another person to be taken on in their department to help with workload, but the unions (there's two) are against more hires until a condition is met.

As management do you laugh or cry in that situation?

Most such manufacturing enterprises were/are on borrowed time. It's almost impossible to complete with low cost labour in Poland or elsewhere in eastern Europe or beyond.

What was the 'condition that needed to be met' btw?

Dyr

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Well, if they're full time trade union officials, then by definition, they don't work in the public sector.

Read the post, "coming through the ranks" the younger generation of full time officials are coming through from the public sector. Not suprising given that the private sector is dying for union representation

Somone mentioned that an ability to argue is the most important thing a steward has but knowing employment law is more important otherwise you'll just be bamboozled, when you get the to the LRC its a lottery even then. Probably the only benefit a union gives you in the private sector is legal representation in those cases.

AndrewJRenko

Bambi wrote: »

Read the post, "coming through the ranks" the younger generation of full time officials are coming through from the public sector. Not suprising given that the private sector is dying for union representation

Somone mentioned that an ability to argue is the most important thing a steward has but knowing employment law is more important otherwise you'll just be bamboozled, when you get the to the LRC its a lottery even then. Probably the only benefit a union gives you in the private sector is legal representation in those cases.

I read the post. It said; "political types who work in the public sector" [present tense[. It didn't say; "political types who worked in the public sector" [past tense].

Don't blame me for your sloppy terminology. Certainly, knowing employment law is very important, which is probably why most unions have extensive training programmes and services for staff and representatives.

Dyr

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

I read the post. It said; "political types who work in the public sector" [present tense[. It didn't say; "political types who worked in the public sector" [past tense].

Don't blame me for your sloppy terminology. Certainly, knowing employment law is very important, which is probably why most unions have extensive training programmes and services for staff and representatives.

"Coming through the ranks" is also in the present tense, i.e. not yet full time officials on a union payroll. Of course you have people still employed in the public sector who are full time union reps so either way it works

You could have tried to argue the point rather than engange in forum pedantry but that wouldnt have gone better for you.

I spent about 20 years as a workplace union rep, I could write a ****ing book on how badly organised and amateurish Irish unions are.