The myth/propaganda that the troubles was a conflict between nationalists and loyalis

Marco23d

I see far too many ill informed Irish and British people believing the conflict was between nationalists and loyalists mainly due to propaganda by the British I'd just like to say a few reasons why this is simply not true.

1. The vast majority of the combatants in the conflict were not even from Northern Ireland (even the entire IRA leadership in the 70s) they were from the republic of Ireland and mainland Britain not Northern Ireland, so that alone should show that the conflict was nothing to do with protestants and Catholics apart from being a factor in the conflict.

2. 99% of the military presence (the most militarized zone on the planet during certain years Northern Ireland actually had more British soldiers than were in the whole of Ireland during the war of independence) was confined to Catholic areas proving that this was a guerilla war and not some sort of peacemaking mission like they would have you believe.

3. There is overwhelming evidence that loyalist paramilitaries were being controlled by British intelligence, out of the 300 top loyalists investigated during the Stevens inquiry all but 7 of them were agents almost all of them were working for British intelligence. (Feel free to look this up if you don't believe me).

4. Colin Wallace former top MI6 officer in Northern Ireland who has exposed numerous scandals including the kincora boys home claimed that British intelligence had begun a pseudo war using loyalist paramilitaries to bring the IRA away from its war against the state and into a sectarian conflict therefore draining it's support and making the IRA non viable leading to quick victory for the British, during the most sectarian part of the conflict 74-76 loyalist paramilitaries killed nearly 300 innocent Catholics while the IRA killed less than 80 protestants, the IRA was regarded as one of the most sophisticated guerilla armies in the world so the reason that loyalists were getting far more kills was clearly not because loyalists were far better killers than the IRA but because hardcore IRA members realised the game that was being played and tried their best to avoid sectarian conflict but clearly could not control all of it's members.

Marco23d

Hhy

EmmetSpiceland

Who was behind the nationalists, and loyalists, getting into the drugs trade?

Marco23d

EmmetSpiceland wrote: »

Who was behind the nationalists, and loyalists, getting into the drugs trade?

Well people get involved in drugs same as anywhere in the world, if you're referring to the PIRA they had no involvement in drug dealing and if you think they did you clearly have no idea what you are talking about.

Loyalist paramilitaries were involved in drugs no doubt about it but the IRA were not even loyalist political parties and the British dont try to make out that the IRA were involved in drugs because there is no substance to it whatsoever.

Marco23d

Iii

Killing of RUC officer joe cambell in cushendall would fill an entire conspiracy forum on its own

What did he know

Marco23d

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Killing of RUC officer joe cambell in cushendall would fill an entire conspiracy forum on its own

What did he know

I just googled "Joe Campbell RUC" and nothing came up.... Can you elaborate?

the beer revolu

Thread closed in 3......2.......

Marco23d

Marco23d wrote: »

I just googled "Joe Campbell RUC" and nothing came up.... Can you elaborate?

Was inclined towards exposing collusion and was taken out....some ruc officers tried to pressurise pira informers to do it


https://www.google.com/amp/s/patriciadevlin.com/2018/03/25/the-ruc-widow-left-with-a-collusion-legacy/amp/


https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.irishtimes.com/news/family-sends-evidence-on-father-s-killing-to-o-loan-1.353421%3fmode=amp


https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/sep/19/catholic-policemans-1977-linked-to-uvf



Im.suprised nothing showed up,try include cushendall aswell??

Sheeps

Who cares? I'm voting no to a United Ireland anyway

corner of hells

Marco23d wrote: »

Well people get involved in drugs same as anywhere in the world, if you're referring to the PIRA they had no involvement in drug dealing and if you think they did you clearly have no idea what you are talking about.

Loyalist paramilitaries were involved in drugs no doubt about it but the IRA were not even loyalist political parties and the British dont try to make out that the IRA were involved in drugs because there is no substance to it whatsoever.

IRA were happy to shoot dealers in the south who wouldn't pay protection money.Foran and Judge were both shot dead in the Finglas area , so , ya know , in a round about way , they were involved in drugs.

EmmetSpiceland

Marco23d wrote: »

Well people get involved in drugs same as anywhere in the world, if you're referring to the PIRA they had no involvement in drug dealing and if you think they did you clearly have no idea what you are talking about.

Loyalist paramilitaries were involved in drugs no doubt about it but the IRA were not even loyalist political parties and the British dont try to make out that the IRA were involved in drugs because there is no substance to it whatsoever.

Are you honestly saying that the nationalist terrorist groups, in their various guises, up there are not involved in the drug trade?

Come on, get real, chief. What’s been going on up there for the last number of decades amounts to nothing more than a drug “turf war”. The grand politics and ideals are just a smoke screen and a way for them to sucker in new recruits.

Marco23d

EmmetSpiceland wrote: »

Are you honestly saying that the nationalist terrorist groups, in their various guises, up there are not involved in the drug trade?

Come on, get real, chief. What’s been going on up there for the last number of decades amounts to nothing more than a drug “turf war”. The grand politics and ideals are just a smoke screen and a way for them to sucker in new recruits.

Do you not think if the IRA were involved in drugs that this would have been shoved down our throats by the British and loyalist parties for the last 50 years?

An internal British Army document written by General Sir Mike Jackson and two other senior officers was released in 2007 under the Freedom of Information Act. It examined the British Army's 37 years of deployment in Northern Ireland, and described the IRA as "a professional, dedicated, highly skilled and resilient force", while loyalist paramilitaries and other republican groups were described as "little more than a collection of gangsters".

Weren’t three good Republicans caught over in Colombia with a bunch of narco terrorists? Or did I make that up?

Marco23d

EmmetSpiceland wrote: »

Are you honestly saying that the nationalist terrorist groups, in their various guises, up there are not involved in the drug trade?

Come on, get real, chief. What’s been going on up there for the last number of decades amounts to nothing more than a drug “turf war”. The grand politics and ideals are just a smoke screen and a way for them to sucker in new recruits.

"Little more than a drug turf war"

The Battle of Newry Road was a running gun battle between British Army helicopters and Provisional Irish Republican Army (IRA) armed trucks, fought along the lanes east of Crossmaglen, County Armagh, on 23 September 1993. The engagement began when an IRA motorized team from the South Armagh Brigade attempted to ambush three helicopters lifting off from the British Army base at Crossmaglen.

Do these sort of actions sound like "little more than a drug turf war" to you?

corner of hells

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Weren’t three good Republicans caught over in Columbia with a bunch of narco terrorists? Or did I make that up?

Ah , ya see , they were just on holidays.

EmmetSpiceland

EmmetSpiceland wrote: »

Are you honestly saying that the nationalist terrorist groups, in their various guises, up there are not involved in the drug trade?

Come on, get real, chief. What’s been going on up there for the last number of decades amounts to nothing more than a drug “turf war”. The grand politics and ideals are just a smoke screen and a way for them to sucker in new recruits.

If they were involved,the brits would highlight to fcuk to discredit em....but evidence of it,seems non-existant from what i can ascertain??

Marco23d

Marco23d wrote: »

"Little more than a drug turf war"

The Battle of Newry Road was a running gun battle between British Army helicopters and Provisional Irish Republican Army (IRA) armed trucks, fought along the lanes east of Crossmaglen, County Armagh, on 23 September 1993. The engagement began when an IRA motorized team from the South Armagh Brigade attempted to ambush three helicopters lifting off from the British Army base at Crossmaglen.

Do these sort of actions sound like "little more than a drug turf war" to you?

never forget,dispite propaganda to opposite,from a pure military perspective the ira were and viewed emaelves as at their peak in the 90s

Ability to strike at will,increased lengths of battles,more and more sophistcated attacks,running rings around the brits....

People have been duped to believe,the british passed up a military victory that would haved crushed republicans and nationlist morale for a generation and secured their.colony.....to.negociate with gerry adams and co

EmmetSpiceland

There’s no appetite for “The Cause” anymore. Groups on either side are scrambling for possession of areas to push drugs. The Brits don’t want the north and neither do we.

The whole unites Ireland dream is with O’Leary at this stage and anyone who thinks these thugs, on either side, are patriots or role models is just plain deluded.

EmmetSpiceland

EmmetSpiceland wrote: »

There’s no appetite for “The Cause” anymore. Groups on either side are scrambling for possession of areas to push drugs. The Brits don’t want the north and neither do we.

The whole unites Ireland dream is with O’Leary at this stage and anyone who thinks these thugs, on either side, are patriots or role models is just plain deluded.

ah yes....who needs evidence of said involvement in drug dealing when it simply feels right to just say it over and over again :yawn:


The brits want the north,its a myth,believed by many tbf, to say they want out,the empire is taught as a good thing in schools there....they still pine after it.

iffandonlyif

Let me guess which party you support.

EmmetSpiceland

[Deleted User] wrote: »

ah yes....who needs evidence of said involvement in drug dealing when it simply feels right to just say it over and over again :yawn:


The brits want the north,its a myth,believed by many tbf, to say they want out,the empire is taught as a good thing in schools there....they still pine after it.

Do a quick Google search there, compadre. You’ll see for yourself, drug dealing, importing, demanding protection money, murdering other drug lords. It’s all there. On both sides of “the wire”

Look, you can view these thugs as heroes if you want but they are laughing all the way to the bank.

And, oh yeah, the Brits love having that place. That’s why they’re ignoring the fact the place is about blow, double crossing the DUP and trying to put a border down the Irish Sea. Some pining there, alright.

EmmetSpiceland

EmmetSpiceland wrote: »

Do a quick Google search there, compadre. You’ll see for yourself, drug dealing, importing, demanding protection money, murdering other drug lords. It’s all there. On both sides of “the wire”

Look, you can view these thugs as heroes if you want but they are laughing all the way to the bank.

And, oh yeah, the Brits love having that place. That’s why they’re ignoring the fact the place is about blow, double crossing the DUP and trying to put a border down the Irish Sea. Some pining there, alright.

Ah yes.....i googled and only about RAAD come up (personally speaking,ive no issue with anyone doing drugs)....but have yet to see an iota of evidemce supporting yous position....its almost as if,your parroting propaganda without critiqueing it??


They do....mate,they fought a 30 year war to cling onto it....looks to me,catholics now outnumber protestants and yet they still use excuse after excuse and rile up street protests to paper over and imagine excuses to not hold a unity poll??

They havnt double crossed the dup,the ni protocol is a result of dup policies....they put all eggs in one basket of eu forcing a border here,and it failed,but lack.leadership skills to admit they've fcuked it up


Like,they could put to bed,the critism of em.not wanting out and call a border poll,but dont....says enough to me anyway

Hangdogroad

Nice theory OP but this woman called Gemma says the Troubles never happened and they were all actors, that's good enough for me.

Your Face

There's an lot of unsung heroes in the Gardai who had to deal with what crept out of the northern sewers during the 70s and 80s.
No parade for them though.

For Forks Sake

Deleted User wrote: »

Weren’t three good Republicans caught over in Colombia with a bunch of narco terrorists? Or did I make that up?

Ah now, they were merely enthusiastic amateur ornithologists :rolleyes:

Marco23d

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Weren’t three good Republicans caught over in Colombia with a bunch of narco terrorists? Or did I make that up?

They were giving them training actually.

Marco23d

For Forks Sake wrote: »

Ah now, they were merely enthusiastic amateur ornithologists :rolleyes:

Don't know why I'm replying to these comments people spouting the same nonsense with nothing to back it up apart from 3 IRA members caught in Colombia

The Colombia Three are three individuals – Niall Connolly, James Monaghan and Martin McCauley – who are currently living in the Republic of Ireland, having fled from Colombia, where they were sentenced to prison terms of seventeen years for training FARC rebels.

No one has ever mentioned anything about drugs apart from you few lads on boards who just connect the word Colombia with drugs.

Here's an article from the independent.co.uk they explain in the article that the PIRA never got involved in drug dealing while loyalists got heavily involved by the 80s.

ulster

Marco23d wrote: »

Do you not think if the IRA were involved in drugs that this would have been shoved down our throats by the British and loyalist parties for the last 50 years?

An internal British Army document written by General Sir Mike Jackson and two other senior officers was released in 2007 under the Freedom of Information Act. It examined the British Army's 37 years of deployment in Northern Ireland, and described the IRA as "a professional, dedicated, highly skilled and resilient force", while loyalist paramilitaries and other republican groups were described as "little more than a collection of gangsters".

Republicans were (and probably still are) fairly singular in their objective. But I wouldn't fawn over them like you're doing in this thread. They killed a lot of people and still didn't achieve the United Ireland they dreamed of.

Marco23d

Marco23d wrote: »

Don't know why I'm replying to these comments people spouting the same nonsense with nothing to back it up apart from 3 IRA members caught in Colombia

The Colombia Three are three individuals – Niall Connolly, James Monaghan and Martin McCauley – who are currently living in the Republic of Ireland, having fled from Colombia, where they were sentenced to prison terms of seventeen years for training FARC rebels.

No one has ever mentioned anything about drugs apart from you few lads on boards who just connect the word Colombia with drugs.

Here's an article from the independent.co.uk they explain in the article that the PIRA never got involved in drug dealing while loyalists got heavily involved by the 80s.

FARC were narco terrorists heavily involved in the production and sale of cocaine. It's kinda hard to avoid making the link, dude.

6541

The Catholics in the North were treated as second class citizens. This is a fact. Protestants supremacy was all about keeping the Irish Catholics down. A population can only take that for so long. The IRA stood up and protected Irish Catholic people. They brought a sectarian, bigoted state to the negotiation table. That same bigoted people are currently throwing the toys out off the pram as they realise they have to share the same piece off earth as equals with the same people that they actually genetically hate without the backing of a world army. The Prodestant people of the North should collectively hang their heads in shame for the mayhem they have caused.

forgottenhills

Marco23d wrote: »

I see far too many ill informed Irish and British people believing the conflict was between nationalists and loyalists mainly due to propaganda by the British I'd just like to say a few reasons why this is simply not true.

1. The vast majority of the combatants in the conflict were not even from Northern Ireland (even the entire IRA leadership in the 70s) they were from the republic of Ireland and mainland Britain not Northern Ireland, so that alone should show that the conflict was nothing to do with protestants and Catholics apart from being a factor in the conflict.

2. 99% of the military presence (the most militarized zone on the planet during certain years Northern Ireland actually had more British soldiers than were in the whole of Ireland during the war of independence) was confined to Catholic areas proving that this was a guerilla war and not some sort of peacemaking mission like they would have you believe.

3. There is overwhelming evidence that loyalist paramilitaries were being controlled by British intelligence, out of the 300 top loyalists investigated during the Stevens inquiry all but 7 of them were agents almost all of them were working for British intelligence. (Feel free to look this up if you don't believe me).

4. Colin Wallace former top MI6 officer in Northern Ireland who has exposed numerous scandals including the kincora boys home claimed that British intelligence had begun a pseudo war using loyalist paramilitaries to bring the IRA away from its war against the state and into a sectarian conflict therefore draining it's support and making the IRA non viable leading to quick victory for the British, during the most sectarian part of the conflict 74-76 loyalist paramilitaries killed nearly 300 innocent Catholics while the IRA killed less than 80 protestants, the IRA was regarded as one of the most sophisticated guerilla armies in the world so the reason that loyalists were getting far more kills was clearly not because loyalists were far better killers than the IRA but because hardcore IRA members realised the game that was being played and tried their best to avoid sectarian conflict but clearly could not control all of it's members.

You're on a fool's errand idolising the PIRA. Some of us are old enough to have lived through that era and we know what went on and who were the goodies and the baddies and are sick of attempts at revisionism by commentators with an agenda who weren't there or who are trying to rewrite history.

PIRA were basically a bunch of stupid and/or misguided people who thought they could kill and bomb their way to a United Ireland. Their preferred methods were indiscriminate car bombs killing many innocents or shooting at people from hundreds of yards away so don't try and glorify them or their methods.

The only heroes of the sad tale of the Troubles were John Hume and the SDLP who eventually manoeuvred them to stop their murderous and pointless campaign. When Ireland is united it will not be sectarian terror groups who will have done anything to have achieved it.

BalcombeSt4

It was a 3-way conflict, which isn't uncommon.

Republicans (PIRA, OIRA, INLA, IPLO, CIRA, RIRA) vs Loyalists (UPV, UVF, UDA, RHC, LVF, URS OVF) vs British & Irish state forces (RUC, British Army, RAF, Royal Navy, UDR, Gardai, IDF and various intelligence agencies & specialist units i.e MI5, FRU, MRF).
Of course all 3 sides colluded with all 3 others, the main collusion by far was Loyalists with state forces mainly the UDR & RUC. But less known would be Loyalists colluding with Republicans to get other Loyalists killed which is how Lenny Murphy, William "Frenchie" Marchant, John McMichael, Robert Seymour, George Seawright & John Bingham all very high ranking UDA & UVF men were killed. The IPLO & UDA colluded to sell drugs together. And in the early 90's English radical socialist militants from Red Action carried out the IRA's incendiary bombing campaign in Britain, two of Red Actions members were convicted of the 1993 Harrods bombing which caused about one million pound worth of damage.

Some great books on the Troubles I'd recommend are, Ed Moloney's "A Secret History of the IRA" & "Voices From the Grave", Tommy McKearney's "PIRA: From Insurrection to Parliament, Jack Holland & Henry McDonalds's "INLA: Deadly Divisions", Henry McDonalds & Jim Cusack's "UVF: Behind The Mask" & "The UDA: Inside the Heart of Loyalist Terror, Joe Tiernan's "The Dublin & Monaghan bombings & the Murder Triangle", Anne Cadwallader's "Lethal Allies: British Collusion in Ireland". And Peter Taylors great series "Provos", "Loyalists" & "Brits"which he turned into documentaries. C

Marco23d

forgottenhills wrote: »

You're on a fool's errand idolising the PIRA. Some of us are old enough to have lived through that era and we know what went on and who were the goodies and the baddies and are sick of attempts at revisionism by commentators with an agenda who weren't there or who are trying to rewrite history.

PIRA were basically a bunch of stupid and/or misguided people who thought they could kill and bomb their way to a United Ireland. Their preferred methods were indiscriminate car bombs killing many innocents or shooting at people from hundreds of yards away so don't try and glorify them or their methods.

The only heroes of the sad tale of the Troubles were John Hume and the SDLP who eventually manoeuvred them to stop their murderous and pointless campaign. When Ireland is united it will not be sectarian terror groups who will have done anything to have achieved it.

The only thing John Hume could manoeuvre was his pay checks out of the bank, you claim to have "lived through it all" so you think you know what you're on about.

How exactly did you live through it all? In some suburb in South Dublin watching the news every few days?

You claim to know who the "goodies and baddies were so can you elaborate?

Strumms

Deleted User wrote: »

ah yes....who needs evidence of said involvement in drug dealing when it simply feels right to just say it over and over again :yawn:


The brits want the north,its a myth,believed by many tbf, to say they want out,the empire is taught as a good thing in schools there....they still pine after it.

The north to the Brits is a tactical landmass, only.. all the other shît they’d give up in a heartbeat...

Costs them billions a year.

corner of hells

Marco23d wrote: »

The only thing John Hume could manoeuvre was his pay checks out of the bank, you claim to have "lived through it all" so you think you know what you're on about.

How exactly did you live through it all? In some suburb in South Dublin watching the news every few days?

You claim to know who the "goodies and baddies were so can you elaborate?

I lived through it too , id a neighbour killed by a no warning bomb and two more shot dead by the IRA.Im from south Dublin.

6541

Question, in your opinion did the PIRA, protect Irish people from a relentless onslaught from sectarian Unionist people ?

Marco23d

corner of hells wrote: »

I lived through it too , id a neighbour killed by a no warning bomb and two more shot dead by the IRA.Im from south Dublin.

Another anecdotal story in a pathetic attempt to make a point.

corks finest

corner of hells wrote: »

IRA were happy to shoot dealers in the south who wouldn't pay protection money.Foran and Judge were both shot dead in the Finglas area , so , ya know , in a round about way , they were involved in drugs.

They weren't

BalcombeSt4

BalcombeSt4 wrote: »

Some great books on the Troubles I'd recommend are, Ed Moloney's "A Secret History of the IRA" & "Voices From the Grave"

Two brilliant books. The Secret History should be renamed as A Secret History of Gerry Adams though.

corner of hells

Marco23d wrote: »

Another anecdotal story in a pathetic attempt to make a point.

Unlike yourself, i don't live in some fantasy dreamland rattling on about Newry Road battles and a couple of chancers who were lucky to get out of South America.

corner of hells

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Two brilliant books. The Secret History should be renamed as A Secret History of Gerry Adams though.

Bandit Country a good read too.

StupidLikeAFox

Marco23d wrote: »

The only thing John Hume could manoeuvre was his pay checks out of the bank

Is the accusation here that John hume was only in it for the money?

For Forks Sake

For Forks Sake wrote: »

Ah now, they were merely enthusiastic amateur ornithologists :rolleyes:

Marco23d wrote: »

Don't know why I'm replying to these comments people spouting the same nonsense with nothing to back it up apart from 3 IRA members caught in Colombia

The Colombia Three are three individuals – Niall Connolly, James Monaghan and Martin McCauley – who are currently living in the Republic of Ireland, having fled from Colombia, where they were sentenced to prison terms of seventeen years for training FARC rebels.

No one has ever mentioned anything about drugs apart from you few lads on boards who just connect the word Colombia with drugs.

Here's an article from the independent.co.uk they explain in the article that the PIRA never got involved in drug dealing while loyalists got heavily involved by the 80s.

Ahem.

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/colombia-three-agitator-offers-no-details-to-gardai-26211672.html

Jim Monaghan, a former IRA bomb maker, his IRA sidekick Martin McCauley, caught at Bogota airport on false British passports, and Niall Connolly, Sinn Fein's Cuban envoy, who travelled on a bogus Irish passport, claimed they were observing the peace process and bird watching.

Marco23d

StupidLikeAFox wrote: »

Is the accusation here that John hume was only in it for the money?

Well with the money he was making I'd say it would have certainly been a factor.

corner of hells

Marco23d wrote: »

Well with the money he was making I'd say it would have certainly been a factor.

He did alright when you think about , winning a Nobel Peace Prize , i mean they throw them around like forged Irish passports.

retalivity

Marco23d wrote: »

The only thing John Hume could manoeuvre was his pay checks out of the bank, you claim to have "lived through it all" so you think you know what you're on about.

You've shown your hand here.
Oiche mhaith.

For Forks Sake

Obvious Shinnerbot is really bloody obvious. How's the weather in Serbia comrade?

Effects

Marco23d wrote: »

They were giving them training actually.

And how were they being paid for the training?

The only thing SF online activists hate more than FG at the moment is the resurgent SDLP. Mopping up the votes amongst young nationalists in NI by all accounts.

EmmetSpiceland

[Deleted User] wrote: »

The only thing SF online activists hate more than FG at the moment is the resurgent SDLP. Mopping up the votes amongst young nationalists in NI by all accounts.

Can you blame them? Imagine voting for a party who’s elected officials are heading down the road to some shady backroom to confer with unelected persons, of dubious character, to get “permission” on how to vote on certain parliamentary matters.

Shocking stuff, really. Here’s hoping the SDLP continue to grow up there. Bring some “normality” to the table.