Workplace recording

Polycom

One of my team members has lodged a complaint against my company. He mentions me in the complaint and stated that he didn't trust me, so recorded our conversations without my knowledge but I didn't say anything incriminating. As far as I know, there is nothing negative in the recordings. I don't have clarity of them being audio or video and not sure if they have been destroyed. The recordings have been while I'm working from him with my kids routinly on the video

Is it legal to record people in this manner?

Dublin Lad2021

Hi OP,

I'm not an expert on recording people, this might be better posted on legal discussion as it's more of a legal thing even though it happened in the workplace I get it.

Anyways this article might help: www.irishtimes.com/culture/tv-radio-web/is-it-legal-to-record-someone-without-their-consent-1.3598275%3fmode=amp

1hnr79jr65

Legally one of the parties that is present needs to know of the recording, as the team member is the aware person he can record without informing anyone else. Its refereed to as single party consent.

TheBoyConor

You could allege to management that the kids being in the recording is a serious matter and that he ought to be disciplined for recording children and have him challenged on why he done it.

Mrs OBumble

TheBoyConor wrote: »

You could allege to management that the kids being in the recording is a serious matter and that he ought to be disciplined for recording children and have him challenged on why he done it.

You could. But management might just say "keep your kids out of your workspace, you'reat fault for being so unprofessional".

This wouldn't be justified in the context of Covid. But if WFH is standard, then a private child-free workspace would be a minimum.

TheBoyConor

TheBoyConor wrote: »

You could allege to management that the kids being in the recording is a serious matter and that he ought to be disciplined for recording children and have him challenged on why he done it.

In practical terms it may not be possible to keep kids off screen during work related calls, but it would be safe for a caller to assume they would not be in the room and identifiable . The caller is recording a conversation, not the children. Why would he be disciplined?

As another poster said, only one party is required to consent to a call being recorded as long as that person is a party to the conversation. The op should check his/her employee handbook to see if there is any policy relating to recordings at work.

Grumpypants

Polycom wrote: »

One of my team members has lodged a complaint against my company. He mentions me in the complaint and stated that he didn't trust me, so recorded our conversations without my knowledge but I didn't say anything incriminating. As far as I know, there is nothing negative in the recordings. I don't have clarity of them being audio or video and not sure if they have been destroyed. The recordings have been while I'm working from him with my kids routinly on the video

Is it legal to record people in this manner?

From the sounds of it you are working, on a zoom call and they record you. Which is not legal.

You can record a phone conversation with the one party consent rule but that does not extend to video conference such as Skype, zoom, WhatsApp.

You also have some options with GDPR (if personal info was shared on the call and then passed on by them) and there is some protection from the right to privacy. Covert recording in the work place usually requires a Garda operation.

And if they constantly record you, you could go the criminal harassment route.

I'd make a formal complaint to your management. That them saying they don't trust you and constantly recording you is harassment and they need to address it.

Grumpypants

Grumpypants wrote: »

From the sounds of it you are working, on a zoom call and they record you. Which is not legal.

You can record a phone conversation with the one party consent rule but that does not extend to video conference such as Skype, zoom, WhatsApp.

You also have some options with GDPR (if personal info was shared on the call and then passed on by them) and there is some protection from the right to privacy. Covert recording in the work place usually requires a Garda operation.

And if they constantly record you, you could go the criminal harassment route.

I'd make a formal complaint to your management. That them saying they don't trust you and constantly recording you is harassment and they need to address it.

What are you basing this on? In Ireland a participant can give single party consent to record a conversation, it is not harassment and does not require a Gardai “operation”.

TheBoyConor

I don't think that extends to the recording of underage children.
Good luck to anyone trying to defend that, monster what the circumstance.

TheBoyConor

TheBoyConor wrote: »

I don't think that extends to the recording of underage children.
Good luck to anyone trying to defend that, monster what the circumstance.

He wasn’t recording under age children though, he was recording a conversation with an adult, work related, where do children factor in a work related call?

Mrs OBumble

Dav010 wrote: »

He wasn’t recording under age children though, he was recording a conversation with an adult, work related, where do children factor in a work related call?

Especially its with a colleague who you don't trslust because you have no idea who else is in the room with him/her.

TheBoyConor

My point was more that if you brought it up you could hope that HR would pin him on the whole "recording of children" thing. If word got out in the company that he was in trouble for the quoted bit, he wouldn't be recording anymore again that is for sure.

GerardKeating

Dav010 wrote: »

He wasn’t recording under age children though, he was recording a conversation with an adult, work related, where do children factor in a work related call?

OP mentions that kids were in the room with him during the call

GerardKeating

GerardKeating wrote: »

OP mentions that kids were in the room with him during the call

I appreciate that, but he was entitled to give one party consent to record a conversation. If the call was work related and during work hours, I’m struggling to see why this would be an issue with the op’s colleague recording this conversation.

TheBoyConor wrote: »

My point was more that if you brought it up you could hope that HR would pin him on the whole "recording of children" thing. If word got out in the company that he was in trouble for the quoted bit, he wouldn't be recording anymore again that is for sure.

Why would he be in trouble? He recorded a work conversation, which he may be entitled to do. He wasn’t intentionally recording children, why would you have your children visible during a work call?

https://www.irishtimes.com/culture/tv-radio-web/is-it-legal-to-record-someone-without-their-consent-1.3598275?mode=amp


Run through here

Short answer- "single party consent can be ok in ireland" is not a carte blanche answer at all, those are limited circumstances and may still breach GDPR and privacy depending on what's recorded.

"GDPR forbids it" is not a guarantee against, in general

It's down to context and tbh I'd be very surprised if your HR/management weren't able to put a stop to this very quickly indeed.

Kid Charlemagne

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

You could. But management might just say "keep your kids out of your workspace, you'reat fault for being so unprofessional".

This wouldn't be justified in the context of Covid. But if WFH is standard, then a private child-free workspace would be a minimum.

On what planet?

Kid Charlemagne

TheBoyConor wrote: »

My point was more that if you brought it up you could hope that HR would pin him on the whole "recording of children" thing. If word got out in the company that he was in trouble for the quoted bit, he wouldn't be recording anymore again that is for sure.

Those kind of allegations should never be tossed around in that kind of "ulterior motive" way.

Kid Charlemagne

Kid Charlemagne wrote: »

On what planet?

Presumably on planet work.

qwerty13

‘Show and tell’ type meetings (calls) are routinely recorded in my workplace. I know of 2 people who record calls for the purposes of doing minutes. Would HR necessarily have a problem with someone recording a work related call, if they were told the reason was for clarification/keeping a record purposes?

Fake Scores

qwerty13 wrote: »

Would HR necessarily have a problem with someone recording a work related call, if they were told the reason was for clarification/keeping a record purposes?

The lad has already committed himself to a reason for the recording. Lack of trust or whatever it was. Said that in a verbal comment to the OP. Perhaps the OP recorded comment for proof

Not a crime.

Audio call is ok, video is not of it's your home.

You can record Kids in public. That in itself is not a crime. Private home is a breach of privacy.

I would see what the work rule is on it and if none exists, what they intend to do about one. Wfh brings in aspects not previously considered in certain places. Zoom, etc conference calls

qwerty13

Fake Scores wrote: »

The lad has already committed himself to a reason for the recording. Lack of trust or whatever it was. Said that in a verbal comment to the OP. Perhaps the OP recorded comment for proof

Yeah, but he could say that the lack of trust was down to prior misunderstandings/the OP going back on something he’d previously agreed. Obviously I don’t know any details! Just speculating that there’s ways of describing the recording that sound reasonable enough (at least to a lay person like me).

Mrs OBumble

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

You can record Kids in public. That in itself is not a crime. Private home is a breach of privacy.

But if the house is being used as a workplace, it's no longer just a private home.

Grumpypants

qwerty13 wrote: »

‘Show and tell’ type meetings (calls) are routinely recorded in my workplace. I know of 2 people who record calls for the purposes of doing minutes. Would HR necessarily have a problem with someone recording a work related call, if they were told the reason was for clarification/keeping a record purposes?

Everyone should get a pop up saying it is being recorded and they can accept or leave at that point.

AndrewJRenko

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

But if the house is being used as a workplace, it's no longer just a private home.

Yes, it is. It is still a private home. The status of the property hasn't changed.

OP - GDPR issues arise around the storage and retention of the recordings of you and your children. There is a question as to whether he was acting for the organisation or individually. Either way, you should be seeking confirmation that he has deleted the recordings, and that HR hasn't retained any copy of the recordings.

Niner leprauchan

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

Audio call is ok, video is not of it's your home.

Is this an opinion or is there legislation relating to recording work audio/video conversations during remote working by a participant?

AndrewJRenko

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Yes, it is. It is still a private home. The status of the property hasn't changed.

OP - GDPR issues arise around the storage and retention of the recordings of you and your children. There is a question as to whether he was acting for the organisation or individually. Either way, you should be seeking confirmation that he has deleted the recordings, and that HR hasn't retained any copy of the recordings.

What are the GDPR issues if the recording is made by a participant? Only one party needs give consent.

AndrewJRenko

Dav010 wrote: »

What are the GDPR issues if the recording is made by a participant? Only one party needs give consent.

GDPR gives the person to right to know where their information is held, the purpose for which it is being held, how long it will be held for and when it will be deleted.

AndrewJRenko

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

GDPR gives the person to right to know where their information is held, the purpose for which it is being held, how long it will be held for and when it will be deleted.

And Irish law allows a participant in a conversation to record that conversation without consent from the other parties in that conversation. Could the Gardai have instructed Maurice MCCabe to delete his recordings under GDPR regs? No

Fake Scores

Dav010 wrote: »

And Irish law allows a participant in a conversation to record that conversation without consent from the other parties in that conversation. Could the Gardai have instructed Maurice MCCabe to delete his recordings under GDPR regs? No

Recordings amounted to evidence of a criminal offence(s)
He would be allowed to, compelled to in fact, retain them.

Fake Scores

Fake Scores wrote: »

Recordings amounted to evidence of a criminal offence(s)
He would be allowed to, compelled to in fact, retain them.

Has legislation been enacted relating to video recordings yet? I ask that because I don’t know myself, I haven’t heard. As far as I’m aware, the right to record a conversation you are a party to is not limited to criminal activity. In the op’s case, his/her employer may have policies relating to recording conversations. This is a new situation, but in relation to the children, an employee working remotely has a responsibility to identify a suitable area to work in, and take reasonable care of yourself and other people who may be affected by the work you are doing.

https://www.hsa.ie/eng/topics/remote_working/

In the op’s case, his/her colleague has lodged a complaint against the employer, this recording may be evidence to support that complaint. This may well end up in the WRC.

Fake Scores

Dav010 wrote: »

Has legislation been enacted relating to video recordings yet? I ask that because I don’t know myself, I haven’t heard. As far as I’m aware, the right to record a conversation you are a party to is not limited to criminal activity.

I was just saying that gdpr doesn't apply to a policeman retaining evidence in regard to McCabe being mentioned. That is unrelated to the OPs case.


The workplace recording doesn't involve crime at all. There could be and should be internal organisational rules and protocols. In the context of GDPR and single-party consent.

Fake Scores

Fake Scores wrote: »

I was just saying that gdpr doesn't apply to a policeman retaining evidence in regard to McCabe being mentioned. That is unrelated to the OPs case.


The workplace recording doesn't involve crime at all. There could be and should be internal organisational rules and protocols. In the context of GDPR and single-party consent.

A complaint has been made against the employer, whatever it is, the op’s colleague appears to think the op is part of that complaint. Can internal rules over ride a person’s rights to record a conversation they are a participant in? I don’t know, but the right to make that recording is established.

I wouldn’t be at all surprised if there is a spate of these types of issues in the next year due to the numbers now working from home. They may be produced in evidence of bullying, misconduct, crime etc.

Fake Scores

Dav010 wrote: »

A complaint has been made against the employer, whatever it is, the op’s colleague appears to think the op is part of that complaint. Can internal rules over ride a person’s rights to record a conversation they are a participant in? I don’t know, but the right to make that recording is established.

Seperate the two to begin with.

Firstly the act of recording someone.

Secondly what you do with the recording afterwards (Retaining/publishing/circulating)


The recording of something audio or visual is governed by ideas about whether they have to consent to it or not. Expectations of privacy.

Holding on to someone's data brings in issues of GDPR.

Fake Scores

Fake Scores wrote: »

Seperate the two to begin with.

Firstly the act of recording someone.

Secondly what you do with the recording afterwards (Retaining/publishing/circulating)


The recording of something audio or visual is governed by ideas about whether they have to consent to it or not. Expectations of privacy.

Holding on to someone's data brings in issues of GDPR.

But that expectation of privacy does not apply where one participant gives consent to the recording. Someone not party to the conversation for instance cannot record that conversation because the participants do have an expectation of privacy.

I agree with you, this is not clear cut, no doubt the WRC will have to rule on this given the extent of wfh and use of audiovisual media. These conversations now form the “new” workplace interactions, and as far as I am aware, there is no law against you recording a conversation with a work colleague in the workplace.

AndrewJRenko

Dav010 wrote: »

And Irish law allows a participant in a conversation to record that conversation without consent from the other parties in that conversation. Could the Gardai have instructed Maurice MCCabe to delete his recordings under GDPR regs? No

Fake Scores wrote: »

Seperate the two to begin with.

Firstly the act of recording someone.

Secondly what you do with the recording afterwards (Retaining/publishing/circulating)


The recording of something audio or visual is governed by ideas about whether they have to consent to it or not. Expectations of privacy.

Holding on to someone's data brings in issues of GDPR.

Couldn't have said it better.

The obligations under GDPR around retaining data are not trumped or cancelled out by Irish law.

AndrewJRenko

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Couldn't have said it better.

The obligations under GDPR around retaining data are not trumped or cancelled out by Irish law.

Except where GDPR do not apply. Is there a law preventing me recording a conversation with you in your office at work?

Dav010

Dav010 wrote: »

What are the GDPR issues if the recording is made by a participant? Only one party needs give consent.

Again, this is for calls not for video

[Deleted User]

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Again, this is for calls not for video

Link please.

Has legislation been enacted relating to this form of communication?

I posted a thorough run-through two hours ago

[Deleted User]

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I posted a thorough run-through two hours ago

Which Act/ruling did you refer to?

AndrewJRenko

Dav010 wrote: »

Except where GDPR do not apply. Is there a law preventing me recording a conversation with you in your office at work?

Again, the GDPR issue is not about recording. It is about retention of the recording.

Why would GDPR not apply to retention of a recording a conversation with me in the workplace? Are you claiming artistic or journalistic exemption?

AndrewJRenko

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Again, the GDPR issue is not about recording. It is about retention of the recording.

Why would GDPR not apply to retention of a recording a conversation with me in the workplace? Are you claiming artistic or journalistic exemption?

Are recording of conversations in the workplace by a participant prohibited by law? It’s not a rhetorical question, I don’t know the answer to that. In the op’s case, given that a complaint has been made against the employer and the op may be a party in that complaint, I’d say that might be a pretty good reason to retain that recording. No doubt the WRC/Courts will have to rule on this type of issue soon enough.

I don’t know the answers to the questions being posed, but I’m not nearly as sure as you seem to be that the recording of a conversation by a participant is prohibited by law just because it is in the workplace.

It’s a brave new world of remote digital communication, the article snoopsheep linked to has a lot of ambiguous opinions, the rules will have to be rewritten to account for situations like this, but as far as I’m aware, they aren’t there yet. You can be sure that a case in the WRC will have a video recording of a boss screaming at an employee over Skype/zoom etc as part of a bullying claim, that’s when we get clarity.

Edit: leaving aside the op’s specific case, I’ve posted a question in the Legal Discussion forum relating to AV recordings at work, we might get some insight into the legality of it there.

Mrs OBumble

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

But if the house is being used as a workplace, it's no longer just a private home.

Yes, it is. It does not become a commercial premises

Dav010

Dav010 wrote: »

Link please.

Has legislation been enacted relating to this form of communication?

Are you suggesting that visual recording and the data retained is not subject to separate treatment?

Niner leprauchan

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

Yes, it is. It does not become a commercial premises

In a way it does, both the employer and employee have responsibilities in relation to the designated workspace in the home.

https://www.hsa.ie/eng/topics/remote_working/

Niner leprauchan

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

Are you suggesting that visual recording and the data retained is not subject to separate treatment?

I am not suggesting that, I am asking what separates a visual recording by a participant from a phone/in person conversation, do you have the answer?

I’ve posted this question over in LD, maybe some of the legal professionals there can shed some light on this.

AndrewJRenko

Dav010 wrote: »

In a way it does, both the employer and employee have responsibilities in relation to the designated workspace in the home.

https://www.hsa.ie/eng/topics/remote_working/

It's not an agreed arrangement though, as set out by the HSA. It is a one-sided emergency imposition done without agreement. My house is still my house. No one else gets to decide how things work in my house.

AndrewJRenko

Dav010 wrote: »

Are recording of conversations in the workplace by a participant prohibited by law? It’s not a rhetorical question, I don’t know the answer to that. In the op’s case, given that a complaint has been made against the employer and the op may be a party in that complaint, I’d say that might be a pretty good reason to retain that recording. No doubt the WRC/Courts will have to rule on this type of issue soon enough.

I don’t know the answers to the questions being posed, but I’m not nearly as sure as you seem to be that the recording of a conversation by a participant is prohibited by law just because it is in the workplace.

It’s a brave new world of remote digital communication, the article snoopsheep linked to has a lot of ambiguous opinions, the rules will have to be rewritten to account for situations like this, but as far as I’m aware, they aren’t there yet. You can be sure that a case in the WRC will have a video recording of a boss screaming at an employee over Skype/zoom etc as part of a bullying claim, that’s when we get clarity.

Edit: leaving aside the op’s specific case, I’ve posted a question in the Legal Discussion forum relating to AV recordings at work, we might get some insight into the legality of it there.

Again, I'm not saying that recording is prohibited anywhere.

I'm saying that retention of recordings are subject to GDPR.

Mrs OBumble

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

IMy house is still my house. No one else gets to decide how things work in my house.

They do though. You cannot beat your wife, starve your kids or manufacture controlled drugs, just for starters.

By actually doing any work from home, you are implicitly agreeing to have it as your workplace. Agree that you were coerced into this with Covid - but you could have said "sorry, there's no way I can work, put me on leave".

Dav010

Dav010 wrote: »

In a way it does, both the employer and employee have responsibilities in relation to the designated workspace in the home.

https://www.hsa.ie/eng/topics/remote_working/

That link does not show any single legislation. None. It's pointless. It places no responsibilities and states itself that it's 'guidance'