Formula 1

The Golden Miller

I'd be interested to hear a few general opinions on this, which is why I'm posting here, because I was just pondering it earlier. Is F1 really the global juggernaut we're led to believe it is? I used to follow it in passing until Jordan sold, and after that up until about 09 when Alonso started getting the better of Schumacher. Some great races, as there was with Schumacher and Hakkinen and many before that. But it's a bore since.

I genuinely don't know one other person who follows it, not anymore anyway, despite the fact it gets moderate media attention, even here. I've heard experts say it used to be about 60% car/40% driver and then in the 90's/00's maybe 80% car/20% driver skill. I'd reckon now it's 97% car/3 % driver now. What really is the point of the sport anymore when the driver has so little influence? Maybe I'm just ignorant on the nuances, but the whole f1 season seem's rubbish now.

From what I'm led to believe, the Williams Senna put on poll in the 94 San Marino grand prix that he died in, was quite poor, but it was driver skill that got him that top spot. You just wouldn't see that now. So I don't know about anyone else, but I think the sport has become a bore and an absolute waste of time. It wasn't always been but has become so over time. No driver skill being the difference anymore. I'd be interested to hear how others view the sport?

I'm old enough to remember the fierce rivalry in the late 80s/early 90s among Prost, Mansell, Piquet and the charismatic dynamo Senna. When the latter died in that ****box Williams, a large part of Formula 1 died with him. Schumi took over, and the sport turned into a rote procession with the exception of the Flying Finn rattling his cage for a years. There used to be some great characters like Berger and Villeneuve before the current crop of automatons. Post millennium, I tuned out as it was all about the car. Tweak here and tweak there, I couldn't give a hoot if Hamilton reaches double digits in championships and gets more dodgy hair plugs.

YFlyer

And not Nicky Lauda?

.anon.

It's not 97% car, 3% driver, or anything like it. If you put them all into identical cars, Hamilton would still win. And it wouldn't be Formula 1 because it's always been an engineering championship as much as a driving one. The best drivers generally find their way into the best cars.

I haven't watched it in years because it's hidden away on some expensive satellite channel. I'd say that's what'll kill it in the end.

YFlyer

.anon. wrote: »

It's not 97% car, 3% driver, or anything like it. If you put them all into identical cars, Hamilton would still win. And it wouldn't be Formula 1 because it's always been an engineering championship as much as a driving one. The best drivers generally find their way into the best cars.

I haven't watched it in years because it's hidden away on some expensive satellite channel. I'd say that's what'll kill it in the end.

Senna would. He proved it in La Mon

.anon.

.anon. wrote: »

It's not 97% car, 3% driver, or anything like it. If you put them all into identical cars, Hamilton would still win. And it wouldn't be Formula 1 because it's always been an engineering championship as much as a driving one. The best drivers generally find their way into the best cars.

I haven't watched it in years because it's hidden away on some expensive satellite channel. I'd say that's what'll kill it in the end.

Well he didn't win it in '16 :pac:

You've hit the nail on the head with them losing out with it being on Sky. They sold the rights for short term gain. Used to be any Monday after a race the back page would be about F1 (unless there was a big soccer game on) and a British driver winning the title would be Sports Personality of the Year almost by default.

YFlyer

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Well he didn't win it in '16 :pac:

You've hit the nail on the head with them losing out with it being on Sky. They sold the rights for short term gain. Used to be any Monday after a race the back page would be about F1 (unless there was a big soccer game on) and a British driver winning the title would be Sports Personality of the Year almost by default.

Jemson no

YFlyer

YFlyer wrote: »

Jemson no

Nico Rosberg.

YFlyer

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Nico Rosberg.

Silk knickers man

Potential-Monke

I think, like soccer, the more technical it got, the less entertaining to the general fans. The "real" F1 fans will debate millisecond time increases due to efficiency in modern engines with modern tyres, etc, etc. Most general consumers don't care about that, they want to see head to head battles, overtaking, close calls, crashes. It's all gone very safe (probably rightly so too) but I think that takes some of the thrill out of it. I used to watch a good bit in the late 90s, and watching some modern races, they barely overtake anymore. The sense of danger is gone, and that's part of the thrill of F1 for me, like basically any rally stage, the unknown of what could happen, the close calls or last millisecond saves.

I'm sure someone can come along and explain why there's less overtaking, most likely due to the technological marvels that are the cars these days. But it's like watching soccer, very few games are actually entertaining. And the players, or in F1 case, drivers, it's nearly more about them than the event. Maybe some day the danger will come back, and we'll slowly move towards a Death Race scenario. I'd pay money to see that!

Potential-Monke

Potential-Monke wrote: »

I'm sure someone can come along and explain why there's less overtaking

I doubt it, mostly because there's far, far more overtaking than there was in the 90s or 00s.

Potential-Monke

Deleted User wrote: »

I doubt it, mostly because there's far, far more overtaking than there was in the 90s or 00s.

I will admit to not watching a full race in a while, so that has changed since I was last watching it. Or maybe I just felt like there wasn't enough. I dunno. I was only ever casual anyway. Even the highlights of modern races aren't that interesting tbh. Something is missing.

KungPao

No real characters any more, and even if they have something about them, the team and sponsors comes first, no controversy please.

The only ones with a bit of edge are Verstappen and Vettle really. Australian lad is cool, but too nice.

I miss the days of Rothmans and Marlboro, random massive engine blowouts, fights in the pit lane. You used to smell the petrol through the telly in the 90s. Way too clean and technical now. Cars sound like toys compared to the screams of yesteryear.

Too many boring tracks, in some god forsaken desert or made up street track that’s impossible to overtake.

fergiesfolly

I've been watching the Formula 1 series on Netflix recently. These guys aren't automatons. Very passionate, driven, sometime viciously confident, other times crushingly paranoid. The in-team politics, tensions and backstabbing really gives another layer to what we see on screen on Sunday afternoon.
What I would love to see, is some of today's top drivers take an 80s or 90s car round a track and compare lap times to the likes of Senna, Prost, Schumacher or Mansell.

gifted

Turn it on....watch the start as far as the first corner....switch channels for 50 or so minutes...turn back to race to see chequered flag.....or you could throw a bit of paint on the wall and watch thst.

antodeco

Driver names being spelled incorrectly bis really breaking my heart

Anyway, F1 is still 75% predictable. When you get to watch the 25% that's when F1 is really good. I'd recommend watching Formula E. It's like F1 bumper cars

Hangdogroad

Very popular in England, I used to work in a call centre trying to flog Sky Sports via cold calls to UK customers. Youd be surprised at how many of them said theyd no interest in football but a huge amount of them followed F1. Also worked with an English guy who was a F1 fanatic, all hed talk about.

BanditLuke

So little of it is to do with the drivers anymore it's just beyond boring.

Wanderer78

It has fallen foul to what has happened to many sports, 'corporatisation', it's as good as fcuked now!

I still watch a bit but it’s far too sanitary in every respect now.

Sky King

Wanderer78 wrote: »

It has fallen foul to what has happened to many sports, 'corporatisation', it's as good as fcuked now!

Yes, no commercial interests when Bernie was in charge eh?

Like many here, I watched every week in the 90s but it got boring so I lost interest.

Wanderer78

Sky King wrote:

Yes, no commercial interests when Bernie was in charge eh?

Yup, that was the start of the corporatisation process, it's gone super sized now, so it's as good as fcuked now, at least during the Bernie era, privateers had some sort of chance, now, they can't even get on the grid. Another element of isolating the fans was selling the viewing rights, no wonder many watch illegally, including myself. You can go on and on.....

dulpit

I suspect 2 big reasons that people are saying they used to watch in 90s but not anymore are that it's no longer shown on rte, and there's no Jordan.

Shame really, I used be the person who got up early for grand prix, eating my Sunday dinner in the sitting room away from everyone watching them.

Once the Middle East gets too involved in a sport it’s on the downhill.

Mantis Toboggan

Love drive to survive on Netflix, well worth a watch if you've not seen it already.

Wanderer78

ReginaldSmythV wrote:

Once the Middle East gets too involved in a sport it’s on the downhill.

I wouldn't necessarily say it's a region or race problem, more of a money and wealth problem

Wanderer78

Wanderer78 wrote: »

I wouldn't necessarily say it's a region or race problem, more of a money and wealth problem

Don’t do that, it’s a sneaky low act going out of your way to get someone carded. I never mentioned religion or race, it’s purely based on wealth and we’re seeing the sport becoming centred around the area more and more. It’s not the only sport either.

SEPT 23 1989

the general public turned off when the chance off men dying was reduced to near nothing

greenspurs

i was a massive F1 fan through the 90s, went to a couple of Races also.

I then just stopped watching it , once Hamilton took over.
Races were dull traffic jams after the first corner.
But the major reason that has killed the spontaneity and the thrill of F1 is the technology.
Fractions of a second, and pure overkill of margins to gain a millisecond is boring.

FIA meddling (abit like the law makers in football) with rules and restrictions is killing the mainstream love of F1 , all you have left now really, is the hardcore follower that would sit down and watch a 2hr race.

I think the netflix series has rekindled interest in the formula though. It shows the drivers behind the helmet that you see doing a couple of hundred kmph on a sunday.
These lads are supremely talented, and it is a cutthroat profession.

Also the tracks dont help, most of the street circuits make it very difficult to overtake, and the ones in the deserts seem to concentrate on the bling around the track, than on the track itself.. but i guess they pay big bucks!

I think this years championship will be very close, as Red Bull seem to have the car to really bother Hamilton and Mercedes!
I really hope so!

lertsnim

I still watch as do a few more I know. Most people I know who would watch stopped when it went to Sky Sports. Not the juggernaut it once was since they took it off free tv.

.42.

Ive only been really following F1 for the past few years and I think its a mix of Cars and Drivers and Team Orders.

Cars - George Russell Jumps from Williams into Hamilton's Mercedes car in Bahrain and would have won except for mechanics messing up costing him the win.

Drivers - Each team has 2 identical cars yet its predictable which driver is faster within the team.

Team Orders - Team Members are not allowed race each other in the bigger teams.

Wanderer78

ReginaldSmythV wrote: »

Don’t do that, it’s a sneaky low act going out of your way to get someone carded. I never mentioned religion or race, it’s purely based on wealth and we’re seeing the sport becoming centred around the area more and more. It’s not the only sport either.

apologies, but i wasnt trying to do that, we re both talking the same language, but just different approaches, oh and cards are just cards, theyre only a color really, so nothing to be worrying about

seamus

It's a bit like horse racing. A very small number of people actually pay attention to it, but because of the amount of money spent, they're constantly pushing the sport in the media.

Wanderer78

seamus wrote: »

It's a bit like horse racing. A very small number of people actually pay attention to it, but because of the amount of money spent, they're constantly pushing the sport in the media.

im not sure about that, horse racing is huge, gambling is beyond a problem now

Potential-Monke

Potential-Monke wrote: »

I will admit to not watching a full race in a while, so that has changed since I was last watching it. Or maybe I just felt like there wasn't enough. I dunno. I was only ever casual anyway. Even the highlights of modern races aren't that interesting tbh. Something is missing.

If anything passing is too easy now. But the reason is mostly down to tyres having different grip levels so there's a big difference in performance and if you fight then you ruin your tyres.

seamus wrote: »

It's a bit like horse racing. A very small number of people actually pay attention to it, but because of the amount of money spent, they're constantly pushing the sport in the media.

Why doesn't sailing get the same kind of coverage?
Horse racing gets coverage because of gambling, it's a symbiotic relationship with the media/papers. Horse racing has a daily newspaper in the UK like.
F1 got attention because unlike here there's always been a massive motor racing culture in the UK. Even the BTCC used to get massive crowds (might still do) despite being a domestic championship. There is a favouritism towards F1 in the UK over the other racing series due to the teams mostly being located there but it's not must of the reason.

meeeeh

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

the general public turned off when the chance off men dying was reduced to near nothing

That's nonsense. Two teams dominated so strongly(one for 4 years and the other one for what it seems for ever) that the excitement is gone. When the only competition to Hamilton for the win is Bottas you really lose the will to watch the race. It has to do with who is dying but what is going on on the track. And in the last decade tgere was very little excitement. Another reason for people turning off is Croft. The most insufferable sports commentator in history of all sports.

I saw the race when Senna died on tv, I saw the race when Bianchi crashed (tv) and I was sitting on the stands just where Kubica crashed in Canada. I remember very little of the Imola race, I mostly remember Canada as Hamilton's first win. I can't even remember which race Bianchi crashed at. However I remember well Spa when Schumacher was lapping everyone in rain and unfortunately met Culthard who wasn't. I remember Mika's pass in Spa. Those are the moments most of us watch F1 for and not the body count. Unfortunately there is less racing like that nowadays at least for the top positions.

swarlb

Why does everyone tend to hark back to the past, and how 'drivers of today' wouldn't be able to emulate the skills of past champions.
I'm guessing that approaching a corner at 200mph requires slightly more than a 3% driver input. I would also hazard a guess that some of today's drivers are far better than their predecessors in terms of youth, fitness level and in some cases skill. I would also imagine that the rookie at the back of the grid has a level of car handling skill beyond most, just to drive the thing in the first place.
That being said, the races can be seen as dull, as strategy, tyre choice, team tactics seem to play a greater role these days than the past.
Comparing drivers of today with those of yesteryear is a futile exercise, and only worthwhile for armchair debate, like saying was Gallagher a better guitarist than Hendrix, or was such and such a drummer better than some other guy. Flick on YouTube and time of the day and you'll see some unknown 10 year old displaying musical skills that will astound you.
Most people here only watched Formula 1 because of the two Eddies, Jordan and Ervine. And rightly so, it was like the interest in cycling in the 80's because of Kelly and Roche.
Unless you are a die hard fan you'll not pay to watch F1. Then again, I tune in now and again, and have never paid, as C4 show highlights and the odd full race for free.
Ask any professional race driver what they want, and the answer will invariably be the same....The Fastest Car..... end of. If Verstappen could have been offered a Mercedes to drive he'd have jumped at it. The only loyalty these guys have is to winning, (possibly money) but mostly winning. And that's the one thing that is a constant throughout the years. The best team wins, and winners want to be part of the best team.
But don't be fooled into thinking all these guys need to do is sit in the car, and technology takes over, that's far from the case.

ELM327

Watched every season since mid '94. Obsessive fan. Have sky sports pack for the F1 (and NFL).

meeeeh

meeeeh wrote: »

That's nonsense. Two teams dominated so strongly(one for 4 years and the other one for what it seems for ever) that the excitement is gone. When the only competition to Hamilton for the win is Bottas you really lose the will to watch the race. It has to do with who is dying but what is going on on the track. And in the last decade tgere was very little excitement.

That's the main issue. F1 has never seen 7 straight years of dominance by one team. In the 90s you might have had 2 years of real dominance. Even during the Schumacher domination it lasted 5 years and there were a couple of real challengers in there. While Ferrari dominated the FIA changed a load of rules at almost zero notice to try and rein them in. Now they leave the rules pretty much static indefinitely.

guyfo

I see a few "I stopped watching because its all about the car now" type comments and I can't agree at all.

F1 has always been about having the best car, the only difference now is the length of the domination that Mercedes have enjoyed. Think Williams and Mclaren through the 80s and 90s, Ferrari in the 2000s, Red Bull and Merc in the 2010s. Saying that though we could do with a final round title deciders again!

Looking back at drivers who won while not driving the fastest car on the grid over the last 35 years: Prost won against superior Williams in 86, then it was 13 years until Hakkinen beat the Irvine to the title, more of a case of Schumacher missing half the season though. Then Schumacher in 03, Kimi in 07, Hamilton in 08 and arguably Alonso 06 Hamilton in 18.

guyfo

Deleted User wrote: »

While Ferrari dominated the FIA changed a load of rules at almost zero notice to try and rein them in. Now they leave the rules pretty much static indefinitely.

That's a bit much, they changed the cars and engines in 2014, which definitelyshook up the order! Big changes of aero in 2017, banned DAS and changed aero again this year. All they did with Ferrari was change the points system and then put Bridgestone on the back foot in 05.

If anything has has an effect on the domination it's the engine rules, but they have always been stable for years through F1's history.

meeeeh

It's not only about the years someone won in car that was not the fastest. 97, 98 offered some of the most thrilling racing precisely because the best driver wasn't in the best car. 2000 was great for me as a Schumacher fan. The last season I found really entertaining was 2009 just because was so bonkers.

guyfo

guyfo wrote: »

I see a few "I stopped watching because its all about the car now" type comments and I can't agree at all.

F1 has always been about having the best car, the only difference now is the length of the domination that Mercedes have enjoyed. Think Williams and Mclaren through the 80s and 90s, Ferrari in the 2000s, Red Bull and Merc in the 2010s. Saying that though we could do with a final round title deciders again!

Looking back at drivers who won while not driving the fastest car on the grid over the last 35 years: Prost won against superior Williams in 86, then it was 13 years until Hakkinen beat the Irvine to the title, more of a case of Schumacher missing half the season though. Then Schumacher in 03, Kimi in 07, Hamilton in 08 and arguably Alonso 06 Hamilton in 18.

The improved reliability is another thing. You could have the fastest car in the 90s but there was probably a 1 in 3 chance the car wouldn't make it to the end.

guyfo

guyfo wrote: »

That's a bit much, they changed the cars and engines in 2014, which definitelyshook up the order! Big changes of aero in 2017, banned DAS and changed aero again this year. All they did with Ferrari was change the points system and then put Bridgestone on the back foot in 05.

If anything has has an effect on the domination it's the engine rules, but they have always been stable for years through F1's history.

2014 was 7 years ago. That's a long-ass time in F1.
The engines have been stable and will remain stable. The problem is everything has to be commodified now. So with the engines they were basically frozen for a few years. Used to be every team had special engines for Suzuka.
DAS was banned but it wasn't a game-changer to begin with.

dulpit

Hamilton being an extremely unlikeable champion doesn't help, but the netflix series has helped big up the other drivers... I just finished the latest series, and it prompted me to start playing the f1 2020 game which I wouldn't have done otherwise.

guyfo

meeeeh wrote: »

It's not only about the years someone won in car that was not the fastest. 97, 98 offered some of the most thrilling racing precisely because the best driver wasn't in the best car. 2000 was great for me as a Schumacher fan. The last season I found really entertaining was 2009 just because was so bonkers.

That's sort of what I was getting at saying we could do with a few final race deciders again. I was more pointing out that the car being a major factor has always been the case.

One that always sticks out is the "back in the days of Senna vs Prost" as a way of pointing out the glory days... I always think of 88 when Mclaren would have won every single race if a not for a crash at Monza!

I wouldn't agree on 2009, it was another domination style season, granted red bull put on a charge towards the end but 3/4 through it was obvious, Button should have had it wrapped up 3 races from the end.

2012 sticks out for me as the best season in recent memory. Multiple champions on the grid, 8 different race winners including 7 in the first 7 races, down to the wire championship finale with Vettel clawing his way through the field with a car damaged from a spin and contact at the start... class

ELM327

meeeeh wrote: »

It's not only about the years someone won in car that was not the fastest. 97, 98 offered some of the most thrilling racing precisely because the best driver wasn't in the best car. 2000 was great for me as a Schumacher fan. The last season I found really entertaining was 2009 just because was so bonkers.

2012 for me, that was the last real comparison between multiple cars.

Ferrari should have had 16-17-18 but they f00ked up strategies!

ELM327

guyfo wrote: »

That's sort of what I was getting at saying we could do with a few final race deciders again. I was more pointing out that the car being a major factor has always been the case.

One that always sticks out is the "back in the days of Senna vs Prost" as a way of pointing out the glory days... I always think of 88 when Mclaren would have won every single race if a not for a crash at Monza!

I wouldn't agree on 2009, it was another domination style season, granted red bull put on a charge towards the end but 3/4 through it was obvious, Button should have had it wrapped up 3 races from the end.

2012 sticks out for me as the best season in recent memory. Multiple champions on the grid, 8 different race winners including 7 in the first 7 races, down to the wire championship finale with Vettel clawing his way through the field with a car damaged from a spin and contact at the start... class

At least it was senna vs prost.
Not senna vs no one. Like hamilton has had. Repeatedly.

guyfo

Deleted User wrote: »

2014 was 7 years ago. That's a long-ass time in F1.


DAS was banned but it wasn't a game-changer to begin with.

Did you miss the bit where they changed aero regs in 2017 and 2021? That's a shake up of regs after every 3rd season....

I didn't say DAS was a gamechanger, but it was a rule change that only affected Merc, that coupled with the aero changes and it seems to have closed things up this season.

Either way the FIA havent just kept the same rules for years on end, they have tried to change things around just like they did with Ferrari. Mercedes have just plain out performed the other teams every time the rules were shaken up since 2013, hopefully that will have changed this year.

Dr. Bre

Potential-Monke wrote: »

I think, like soccer, the more technical it got, the less entertaining to the general fans. The "real" F1 fans will debate millisecond time increases due to efficiency in modern engines with modern tyres, etc, etc. Most general consumers don't care about that, they want to see head to head battles, overtaking, close calls, crashes. It's all gone very safe (probably rightly so too) but I think that takes some of the thrill out of it. I used to watch a good bit in the late 90s, and watching some modern races, they barely overtake anymore. The sense of danger is gone, and that's part of the thrill of F1 for me, like basically any rally stage, the unknown of what could happen, the close calls or last millisecond saves.

I'm sure someone can come along and explain why there's less overtaking, most likely due to the technological marvels that are the cars these days. But it's like watching soccer, very few games are actually entertaining. And the players, or in F1 case, drivers, it's nearly more about them than the event. Maybe some day the danger will come back, and we'll slowly move towards a Death Race scenario. I'd pay money to see that!

It’s football bro

Wibbs

As a kid in the 70's I used to watch it with my dad, my main memories would be crashes and Lauda being nearly killed I remember very clearly. The 80's and the turbo era was worth watching and that continued into the 90's. Watching Senna being killed shook me I have to admit and interest waned a little after that. I tried watching it since but have found it bland and the drivers even blander. I recall reading somewhere that F1 lost over half of its global audience between 95 and 2005, or something like that. Maybe the electric formulas will claw back some viewers, but I doubt it.

I suspect - and granted this may be an oddball angle from me here - that part of the lack of wider interest in motorsport compared to the past is that people, let's be honest mostly men, are less directly involved with their personal cars. When cars required more hands on attention from the average owner of a weekend so they'd be capable of bringing you to work of a Monday there was more interest in cars in general and motorsport in particular. These days the average person wouldn't ever need to open the bonnet and if anything does go wrong it's the dealer who sorts that stuff out.