Grants cut for plug-in hybrids and electric cars

Orebro

Orebro wrote: »

This isn’t sustainable at scale though - fine for the few EVs being sold at the moment but the Gov can’t possibly continue subsidizing EVs forever - there’s only another budget or two left in it I would imagine.

Thing is, if they are truly a better choice, economy and convenience, there should be no need to subsidy.

liamog

Deleted User wrote: »

Thing is, if they are truly a better choice, economy and convenience, there should be no need to subsidy.

We'll get there, but for now the economies of battery production still require some subsidisation. It's widely forecasted that between 2023 and 2024 that we'll see purchase price parity between a new combustion car and a comparable EV.
Compliance costs of combustion cars are increasing whilst battery pack prices are decreasing. The subsidies go some way to addressing this gap.

In cars with smaller batteries (such as the Mini Cooper SE versus the Mini Cooper S) we can already see that the subsidy is cancelling out the extra battery costs.

ELM327

Orebro wrote: »

So many people thinking that they should be subsidized into electric cars, forgetting that every euro put towards a car means a euro not going elsewhere. Car subsidies always make me uncomfortable as they assist the better off in society - someone well heeled getting a subsidy to get the latest Tesla, VW, etc while the person that cannot afford a newer car gets screwed over again. (Just like from 2008 the better off bought their new Lexus or BMW to take advantage of the new lower road tax while the less well off were left behind paying huge road tax).

Cars have always been and always will be seen as a luxury item by the Irish Gov. The real change and increase in EV numbers will happen when they start to turn the screw on fuel prices, road tax on fossil cars etc. and remove the EV subsidies.

Those that are considering buying a new EV are likely to be contributing a larger amount of that euro though.

innrain

Casati wrote: »

Is the €60k limit pre or post grant? I.e. If its pre grant then an E.V. with price after grant of today €55k will rise to €60k, is that correct?

Correct.

TheBoyConor

In another few years, scrapyards will be overflowing with spent EVs that are less than 10 years old. It is going to become a big thing and what to do with the spent batteries is the big question. There is no established industry to recycle them. They will have to be either landfilled as toxic material, or stockpiled until such time that a commercially viable recycling industry emerges to process them.

The whole thing is an evironmental disaster just as much as fossil fuel. It is much of a muchness. The extraction of the raw materials is another whole side to the environmental vandalism with the added tragedy of inhumane working conditions, child miners and war lords.

Buddy Bubs

TheBoyConor wrote: »

In another few years, scrapyards will be overflowing with spent EVs that are less than 10 years old. It is going to become a big thing and what to do with the spent batteries is the big question. There is no established industry to recycle them. They will have to be either landfilled as toxic material, or stockpiled until such time that a commercially viable recycling industry emerges to process them.

The whole thing is an evironmental disaster just as much as fossil fuel. It is much of a muchness. The extraction of the raw materials is another whole side to the environmental vandalism with the added tragedy of inhumane working conditions, child miners and war lords.

Have you a link for that?

TheBoyConor

For what? My opinion?

liamog

TheBoyConor wrote: »

In another few years, scrapyards will be overflowing with spent EVs that are less than 10 years old. It is going to become a big thing and what to do with the spent batteries is the big question. There is no established industry to recycle them. They will have to be either landfilled as toxic material, or stockpiled until such time that a commercially viable recycling industry emerges to process them.

The reason there isn't a commercial recycling industry yet, is that the battery cells are still incredibly useful for static storage purposes.

The term is reduce, reuse, recycle. Batteries should always be reused before any attempt to recycle them is performed.

TheBoyConor

that is fair enough but they will still have a limit beyond which they cannot be used for static purposes. After that they will require disposal and recycling. Anyway, there isn't any significant static battery plants yet. For that to become viable there will need to be a very sure supply of spent batteries, which means somewhere will have to start stockpiling them in industrial quantities in anticipation of static power storage plants coming into being. Who is going to do that on the off chance it'll come into being.

liamog

TheBoyConor wrote: »

that is fair enough but they will still have a limit beyond which they cannot be used for static purposes. After that they will require disposal and recycling. Anyway, there isn't any significant static battery plants yet. For that to become viable there will need to be a very sure supply of spent batteries, which means somewhere will have to start stockpiling them in industrial quantities in anticipation of static power storage plants coming into being. Who is going to do that on the off chance it'll come into being.

Nissan, Renault and VW are already in the business.
https://www.volkswagenag.com/en/news/stories/2019/02/lithium-to-lithium-manganese-to-manganese.html
https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/industry-news-technology/renault-joins-project-develop-ev-battery-recycling-loop

monseiur

Norway is one of the biggest producer of oil in Europe (second only to Russia) and it's also the most affluent due to this oil industry.
Thanks to high taxes Norway has the most expensive petrol in Europe
55% of all new cars sold last year in Norway were EV's thanks to very generous subsidies from the goverment. They hope that all cars will be EV's within 10 years
Sales of diesel engine cars fell from 74% in 2011 to 8% last year
The best selling electric models there last year were the Audi e-Tron SUV & Audi Sportsback
The moral of the story is that generous goverment subsidies makes a huge difference........in the short term!

TheBoyConor

They will also have Europe's largest spent EV mountain in 10 years.

ELM327

TheBoyConor wrote: »

They will also have Europe's largest spent EV mountain in 10 years.

I dont know where this "spent" nonsense is coming from.
EVs are still on the road since 2011. Especially in Norway. In fact, as there is no combustion engine to break down, it is likely that EVs will remain longer on the road, compared to a 10 year old fossil car for instance.

Orebro

TheBoyConor wrote: »

They will also have Europe's largest spent EV mountain in 10 years.

You'll be shocked when you look at what happens to Diesel and Petrol when it's burned in cars. Spoiler: it doesn't get recycled.

Lantus

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Thing is, if they are truly a better choice, economy and convenience, there should be no need to subsidy.

This exactly. Markets are driven by improvement and better tools for consumers. Car manufacturers have the money and know how to deliver cost effective products. But if they can strong arm governments into handing over free money its on one hand fair play to them in a competitive world. They are in it for the money after all.

Instead of a fine for vw just let them get on with building cars
.

slave1

Lantus wrote: »

..Markets are driven by improvement and better tools for consumers...
.

In a lot of segments yes but in others legislative leads the way.

Do you honestly think there would be a Tesla on a US/international road without the significant tax breaks in likes of California and Norway?
Do you think there would be as many EVs on the road today without Carbon fines?

In a perverse way do you honestly think there would be the amount of diesel cars on Irish roads without the incompetence of the Green Party and their CO2 rampage against petrol......

Without these interventions to the market we would be continuing our stupidity down fossil fuel depletion.

Gov interventions (inc. subsidy) wholly required, that's why it's done globally

Lantus

slave1 wrote: »

In a lot of segments yes but in others legislative leads the way.

Do you honestly think there would be a Tesla on a US/international road without the significant tax breaks in likes of California and Norway?
Do you think there would be as many EVs on the road today without Carbon fines?

In a perverse way do you honestly think there would be the amount of diesel cars on Irish roads without the incompetence of the Green Party and their CO2 rampage against petrol......

Without these interventions to the market we would be continuing our stupidity down fossil fuel depletion.

Gov interventions (inc. subsidy) wholly required, that's why it's done globally

Less regulation may help stimulate things? Also governments have historically encouraged car ownership as you rightly point out via tax changes and scrappage schemes.

If people had more control things would have changed faster. It's the car industry keeping the status quo. It's such a regulatory nightmare car making is the preserve of big business.

I'd live to see sme development in this industry at a grass roots level.

blackbox

Lantus wrote: »

Less regulation may help stimulate things? Also governments have historically encouraged car ownership as you rightly point out via tax changes and scrappage schemes.

If people had more control things would have changed faster. It's the car industry keeping the status quo. It's such a regulatory nightmare car making is the preserve of big business.

I'd live to see sme development in this industry at a grass roots level.

How can you say our government encourages car ownership when VRT is so high as well as the huge duty and tax on fuels?