Corruption in charities

AndrewJRenko

dublin49 wrote: »

just reading now about Bothar in yesterdays Times,after the assurances we have been given about the new reality that charities have embraced with regard to financial probity their chief executive stands accused of mis appropriating half a million while the the Charity itself had practically no controls in place to prevent fraud.Why anyone would contribute to a charity is beyond me when so many stand accused of sharp practise.Large sums of money given on trust to individuals without proper oversight will always result in similiar outcomes.I suspect at times these ocurrences are swept under the carpet to protect the charities name.

Presumably you won't be engaging with any accounting/consultancy firm when so many stand accused of sharp practice;

https://www.independent.ie/news/senior-employee-arrested-over-11m-expenses-fraud-at-multinational-firm-40198914.html

though we all know that the private sector rarely washes its dirty linen in public, so most frauds are covered up and quietly brushed under the carpet with no publicity.

Presumably you won't be taking any Covid vaccine when so many pharma firms stand accused of sharp practice;

https://www.independent.ie/regionals/herald/news/courts/office-manager-stole-20k-to-pay-for-luxury-lifestyle-39868896.html

It's just a bit silly, isn't it?

dublin49

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Presumably you won't be engaging with any accounting/consultancy firm when so many stand accused of sharp practice;

If your point is there is always sharp practise so nothing to see in charity sector I don't agree.A donation to a charity is an unique transaction that I would argue involves a greater level of trust than a stardard financial transaction and therefore these organisations should be run to the highest standard of probity and yet when you read about Bothar the exact opposite is the case.

Mimon

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Who's going to order them? Who's going to leave them out? Who's going to clean up afterwards? Who's going to look after all the other needs of homeless people that aren't met by cheese sandwiches, primarily housing?

Homeless services are labour intensive services. I'm not sure what you mean by "as a business". These are large organisations with paid, professional staff - as they should be.

Overpaid in my experience.

Know two people who graduated out of the same class. One got an entry level job in a small business for 28 grand. The other got an entry level job in a charity starting at 45 grand, world of a difference when they were doing similar jobs.

Kalimah

Mimon wrote: »

Overpaid in my experience.

Know two people who graduated out of the same class. One got an entry level job in a small business for 28 grand. The other got an entry level job in a charity starting at 45 grand, world of a difference when they were doing similar jobs.

I’d love to know what discipline they qualified in. I’ve worked in the charity sector for the last 20 years- I’m a very experienced finance and donor care administrator. My salary until recently was 27k, my colleagues much the same level. I’ve left to look for something better paid. I saw a job recently in another charity advertised for 23k and you had to have quite a bit of experience.
My kids say get out of the sector- the pay and terms and conditions are very poor. And you’ll be worked to the bone with poor resources and not enough staff.
Unless you get to CEO level ( and that’s not a stratospheric salary in most cases) you won’t be well paid at all.
If I had my time again I’d join the public service.

Mimon

Kalimah wrote: »

I’d love to know what discipline they qualified in. I’ve worked in the charity sector for the last 20 years- I’m a very experienced finance and donor care administrator. My salary until recently was 27k, my colleagues much the same level. I’ve left to look for something better paid. I saw a job recently in another charity advertised for 23k and you had to have quite a bit of experience.
My kids say get out of the sector- the pay and terms and conditions are very poor. And you’ll be worked to the bone with poor resources and not enough staff.
Unless you get to CEO level ( and that’s not a stratospheric salary in most cases) you won’t be well paid at all.
If I had my time again I’d join the public service.

This was 12 years or so ago. She is still with them so presumably be on a lot more now.

AndrewJRenko

Mimon wrote: »

Overpaid in my experience.

Know two people who graduated out of the same class. One got an entry level job in a small business for 28 grand. The other got an entry level job in a charity starting at 45 grand, world of a difference when they were doing similar jobs.

Show me one entry level job in any charity in Ireland paying €45k? I dare ya.

AndrewJRenko

dublin49 wrote: »

If your point is there is always sharp practise so nothing to see in charity sector I don't agree.A donation to a charity is an unique transaction that I would argue involves a greater level of trust than a stardard financial transaction and therefore these organisations should be run to the highest standard of probity and yet when you read about Bothar the exact opposite is the case.

My point is that avoiding donating to ALL charities because of what happened at ONE charity is a bit silly.

That's the great thing about charities. If you don't want to donate, you don't have to donate. No-one is forced to donate.

dublin49

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

dublin49 wrote: »

My point is that avoiding donating to ALL charities because of what happened at ONE charity is a bit silly.

That's the great thing about charities. If you don't want to donate, you don't have to donate. No-one is forced to donate.

my main point is you really have little way of knowing which one is a Bona Fide charity.I would have thought Bothar was one of the good guys.I just checked and Bothar are listed as members of Wheel .An umbrella charity organization that were on the radio in the past saying their members would be adhering to best practise. Clearly not the case with regard to bothar.

Manach

My own 2c, is to always try and get some account from third parties if the Charities are functional. From personal experience as a child, I'd recommend the SVP for local, and from an account from a lecturer who worked with disadvantaged communities overseas, Caritas.

AndrewJRenko

dublin49 wrote: »

my main point is you really have little way of knowing which one is a Bona Fide charity.I would have thought Bothar was one of the good guys.I just checked and Bothar are listed as members of Wheel .An umbrella charity organization that were on the radio in the past saying their members would be adhering to best practise. Clearly not the case with regard to bothar.

Likewise, you have little way of knowing which bank is a bona fide bank, which plumber is a bona fide plumber, which church is a bona fide church.

You make the best decisions you can. Charity governance has never been better. The fact that these guys are being caught is good news, albeit a bit too late. There is a degree of fraud in all aspects of life.

If a multinational accounting and business advisory firm can get stung, any organisation can get stung.

Tar.Aldarion

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

They don't look at Irish charities, do they?

I don't think any Irish charity is good enough to get a recommendation, not when you can equate a few thousand dollars = saving one life another country, malaria etc. Plus charities here would have the massive overheads they avoid.

AndrewJRenko

Tar.Aldarion wrote: »

I don't think any Irish charity is good enough to get a recommendation, not when you can equate a few thousand dollars = saving one life another country, malaria etc. Plus charities here would have the massive overheads they avoid.

Is this an assumption, or have you actually run the numbers against the Irish charities working on overseas aid?

touts

gmisk wrote: »

Is it just me or are there an increasing number or charities that are notifying the gardai etc of pretty horrendous fraud?
Is there a lack of decent controls and oversight in this sector?

Bothar is the latest one in a lot of bother...

Charity Bóthar claims ex-CEO misappropriated hundreds of thousands of euro worth of donations https://jrnl.ie/5404560

A neighbour of his told me about this. 5 years ago. The big question is how long it took for this to be stopped considering all his neighbours knew what was going on.

The problem is the charity industry is largely now seen as a tax dodge for the founders and their cronies. Having your spouse made the head of a charity is a status symbol in Dublin 4. Not because of the good work you are doing but because financially you can afford the accountants fees etc.

Darc19

fryup wrote: »

never realised until recently that charities had ceo's and boards of management....i always presumed that they were run by volunteers top to bottom

maybe i'm just too innocent

The chances are that your local school is a charity.

Similarly St Patrick's mental health centre is a charity

Hence the classification needs to change

corner of hells

touts wrote: »

A neighbour of his told me about this. 5 years ago. The big question is how long it took for this to be stopped considering all his neighbours knew what was going on.

The problem is the charity industry is largely now seen as a tax dodge for the founders and their cronies. Having your spouse made the head of a charity is a status symbol in Dublin 4. Not because of the good work you are doing but because financially you can afford the accountants fees etc.

My cousin is the CEO of a charity, its the second charity hes been employed in over the years as a CEO and prior to that has worked with various charities in senior management.
Id hazard a guess he hets these various roles through his management ability and on merit, previously worked in management in various private sector businesses.
Id definitely say hes a rogue though , pretty certain he was cheating the last time we played golf too.

YFlyer

Bunny Carr.

AndrewJRenko

The One Doctor wrote: »

If you're deeply involved with a charity it can be very, very tempting to just 'borrow' the money with the intention of giving it back. Also, charities like Trocaire and Concern, while extrordinarily well run, are often forced to give the money to local companies on the ground that just run off with it.

A classic example is Bob Geldof's foray into charity work with Band Aid and Live Aid. Almost all of the donations received funded Ethiopia's 1984 war and went straight into the pockets of Ethiopia's dictator. $150 million dollars, or $380 million today, went into his bank account.

That said, that was NOT Geldolf's fault, but he must have been warned that it would happen.

Essentially, Geldolf accidentally crowdfunded mass murder.

He tried his best, but the odds were seriously against any of that money making a difference to starving people. It was spent on tons of Dom Perignon, a suite at Le Crillion and a load of AK47s, ammo and tanks.

I have absolutely no respect for charities or media luminaries extolling charity now, unless I can see exactly where their money goes.

If I had no scruples and desperate desire to make money, I'd start a charity, promote it heavily, squeeze it dry and retire to Northern Thailand.

Are you sure those Live Aid allegations stand up?
https://www.bbc.com/news/entertainment-arts-11688535

AndrewJRenko

touts wrote: »

A neighbour of his told me about this. 5 years ago. The big question is how long it took for this to be stopped considering all his neighbours knew what was going on.

The problem is the charity industry is largely now seen as a tax dodge for the founders and their cronies. Having your spouse made the head of a charity is a status symbol in Dublin 4. Not because of the good work you are doing but because financially you can afford the accountants fees etc.

Did no one report it five years ago?

mariaalice

YFlyer wrote: »

Bunny Carr.

You picked a very minor RTE personality who may have commented a fraud in the 1980s as an answer to this thread?

.

corner of hells

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Did no one report it five years ago?

Sure that would've ruined the whole thread.

AndrewJRenko

mariaalice wrote: »

You picked a very minor RTE personality who may have commented a fraud in the 1980s as an answer to this thread?

.

Lies and innuendo travel at the speed of light before the truth has ever got out bed.
https://www.irishtimes.com/culture/mr-charm-school-1.85444?mode=amp

touts

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Did no one report it five years ago?

You couldn't be doing that. Sure look at all the good work he was doing. And all that unusual expenditure and his lifestyle. Maybe he genuinely earned the money.

Irish people are quick to talk but slow to report.

AndrewJRenko

touts wrote: »

You couldn't be doing that. Sure look at all the good work he was doing. And all that unusual expenditure and his lifestyle. Maybe he genuinely earned the money.

Irish people are quick to talk but slow to report.

Maybe he won the lotto? Maybe his elderly aunt died and left him a house? Maybe he borrowed heavily?

Unusual expenditure does not equate to fraud.

YFlyer

mariaalice wrote: »

You picked a very minor RTE personality who may have commented a fraud in the 1980s as an answer to this thread?

.

Yeah corruption in charity.

corner of hells

YFlyer wrote: »

Yeah corruption in charity.

Its fairly widely accepted that what you are talking about has never been anything but an urban myth.

seamus

humberklog wrote: »

So GOAL from Friday lunchtime were able to assess the damage done in at least 4 massive countries- a huge tract of land and saw what was needed.
Then they were able to script a 30 seconds ad detailing the issues.
Hire a studio and staff.
Hire a voice actor.
Edit and package the ad ready for promotion.
Secure some of the most expensive and sought after ad slots on the national broadcaster's programmes.

All that in one and a half days.

Some charities are super efficient. Surprisingly super efficient.

While I appreciate what you're getting at here, there's actually not a whole lot surprising here when you have an organisation which runs ads on any kind of semi-frequent basis.
The script for the ad is pretty simple. They could easily have written it on Wednesday and just put the finishing touches to it on Thursday or Friday.

Getting access to a studio and a voiceover artist is surprisingly quick when you know the process. Lots of PR firms offer packages of these; they'll have a VO artist in studio two hours later doing your ad. They're a pro and it's 30 seconds long so that takes no more than half an hour.
Engineer cleans it up and produces it in about an hour. You get back an audio file, review it, pick the stations you want to play it on, and they send it on. Bingo-bango.

It's all quite formulaic.

Some of the companies who run ads on a constant basis (like Tesco) will often have the V.O. artist record their piece at lunchtime and the ad is being played on every station by tea time.

You're right to an extent. Bill & Mary's dog rescue would take weeks to put all the pieces together.
The fact that GOAL did this goes to show that they have the connections and the experience in place to get it done. And therefore just how much of their donated money they spend on gathering more donations. But I wouldn't read any more malice into it than that.

AndrewJRenko

YFlyer wrote: »

Yeah corruption in charity.

You're spreading false rumours about a dead man. Have a little bit of decency, would ya?

Tar.Aldarion

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Is this an assumption, or have you actually run the numbers against the Irish charities working on overseas aid?

If an Irish charity was good enough to be recommended as one of the top charities in the world, they would have been found/recommended by now:

Our Process for Identifying Top Charities
Finding eligible charities: We have conducted extensive searches for charities that focus on our priority programs, both by talking to individuals and organizations working in the field as well as via Internet research. We will invite promising charities to apply for a GiveWell recommendation. We are also frequently contacted by charities looking to apply for a recommendation.

Examining charities: Our intensive evaluation process aims to deeply and critically question the case for the charity's impact, and lay out what we see as the strengths and weaknesses publicly. More details on our review process

Following up: We follow up intensively with our top charities over time, and consider this one of the major arguments in favor of supporting such charities. Because our recommendation directs substantial donations to a charity, top charities are generally willing to engage substantively with us and help us deepen our understanding of their activities and progress over time.

Crucially, we believe — and make clear to our top charities that we believe — in sharing both positive and negative developments, and we have written extensively in the past about unanticipated struggles faced by top charities. See, for example, our series of updates on VillageReach.

For more on our process and the reasoning behind it, see our process page describing our process for analyzing and recommending top charities for donors.

There has never been any charity evaluator I have seen that has recommended an Irish charity. If there are any that are worthy they should apply to be a recommendation as they would get hundreds of millions for doing so, I imagine if there were good enough in this sense they'd have been mentioned to any of the evaluators to look at.

AndrewJRenko

Tar.Aldarion wrote: »

If an Irish charity was good enough to be recommended as one of the top charities in the world, they would have been found/recommended by now:



There has never been any charity evaluator I have seen that has recommended an Irish charity. If there are any that are worthy they should apply to be a recommendation as they would get hundreds of millions for doing so, I imagine if there were good enough in this sense they'd have been mentioned to any of the evaluators to look at.

So that's a no then, you/they haven't run the numbers of every Irish charity.

Are you certain that no Irish charity, maybe SVP,can beat or match the 17% off the top costs for cash distribution, as seen with one of their recommended charities?

dublin49

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Did no one report it five years ago?

like you said in a later post , he could have won the lotto,knowledge of a crime and proof can be 2 different things.Look at Haughey,everyone suspected he had dubious financial arrangements but he went 20 years without anyone laying a glove on him,and when Vincent Browne tried ,the stonewalling was absolute.
Major Irish charities like ,Goal,Bothar ,CRC,Console and more have undermined the trust I have in the charity industry in this country and one of more depressing aspects is there does not seem to be a major repercussions for the people responsible for this situation.