Corruption in charities

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118028169#Comment_118028169

So no charity should ever employ anyone? Have you thought about how impossible it is to provide effective safe services for people who need them relying solely on volunteers? Do people with disabilities, homeless people, older people in nursing homes not deserve professional quality services?

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118027830#Comment_118027830

The charities and NGOs don't control Government policy. They don't get to fix things at source. Only Government can do that.

Your question is a bit like asking why, after all those years of road safety ad campaigns, drivers still speed and drink drive.

Hotblack Desiato

"Relative poverty" is the biggest scam going.

You don't become poorer if your neighbour wins the lotto. But according to relative poverty, you do...

Designed to ensure the begging bowl and the salaries paid out of it are kept going in perpetuity.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118031263#Comment_118031263

"Do people with disabilities, homeless people, older people in nursing homes not deserve professional quality services?"

They deserve rights, not charity.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118035453#Comment_118035453

Fully agree, which is why the services mentioned are funded government services.

Hotblack Desiato

But they're provided (with a greater or lesser degree of shambolism) by charities, and there is insufficient transparency and control over the large sums of taxpayers' money involved. Many of these charities are religious and regard the service users as fair game for evangelisation.

corner of hells

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118038096#Comment_118038096

Funding for homeless services now is provided on an annual basis working on the premise that these services reach KPIs and work to a NQSF.

These KPIs are based on services reaching certain targets , for example having an up to date active housing application or having a move on option I.e drug treatment, social housing , private rented.Money is not thrown hand over foot without accountability st These services.

I'm a long time working as a front line social care worker in low threshold homeless services both residential and drug services and accountable for every interaction I have with a service user including internal support and interagency work.

As far as your evangelical comment, never seen anything of the sort , nothing.

joey100

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118038096#Comment_118038096

And then to add to corner of hells pieces about the charities he works with. I work for the government overseeing a particular type of charity, which they fund. The fact they are charities and not services provided by the government is solely so that they don't become public servants and be entitled to pensions and other rights. There are strict rules over what they can and can't spend funding on, and even then it still has to be weighted hugely in favour of direct costs to provide the service and not in costs such as rent, light and heat, insurance which are all considered indirect. Their accounts are submitted quarterly, we meet them face to face about their finances at least 3 times a year. If they want to move any piece of funding from where the heading they originally budgeted when they submitted their application in 2020 for 2021 they need to write into us, explain why they want to move the money, why there original budget is now no longer accurate and if it affects any of the scheme rules. That can be as simple as they have 300 euro left after paying their light and heat bills, they can't just spend that somewhere else, they need to request it to be moved from one heading to another. Alongside this they have to take part in a NQSF process, their work is judged against a provided service requirement outlining the type of hours and days they are expected to be providing the service along with the numbers they are expected to work with. Any changes from this can see their funding stopped or at least suspended until they outline why. Not one board member of any of the charities in the sector is paid, all are voluntary. In my time with the organisation, about 15 years, I cannot recall one incident of corruption or a mis-spending of finances. But yet people on here will say that all charities are corrupt, there is no transparency, no control over government money that go into them.

Lillyfae

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118040389#Comment_118040389

That's a gigantic amount of pen pushing.

I think the concern most people have is why "charities" are fully funded by the government to provide basic services. In another country this is done by the private sector, but in Ireland we're terrified of not having a massively bloated public sector so we have "charities" do it instead.

joey100

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118040461#Comment_118040461

It is a gigantic amount of pen pushing, but that's what people want, no? People have said about the need for oversight and transparency, that's what it looks like. In my sector it's not provided by the private sector anywhere, it's pretty much 100% provided by governments or government agencies, but our government have taken the decision not to directly employ people within it, that they will fund individual charities that must then go and employ their own workers. This is nearly 100% down to the fact they don't want to employ more pubic servants, in a role which should be and is a public service role. The reason there is so many charities is down to the governments way of funding these services. The majority of the organisations I work with receive near 100% of their funding through the government, different departments, different agencies and for different specific purposes. They have to apply for this funding separately and report on it separately. They do not rely on donations or fund raising, most don't even have a way of recording how they would receive or spend that income, they are entirely funded by the government. So at least some of the blame for the number of charities lies there, not because it's an easy gig for a board of director.

Lillyfae

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118040623#Comment_118040623

We certainly don't need more useless, unfireable public servants, we need private companies to be invited to submit their tenders to do the work properly and efficiently, with a government department to oversee their work. This charity rubbish is a complete farce creating work for pen pushers, but it can't be done privately. Sure look at the farcical protests when it comes to Irish Water- and that's a government agency! Whoever is in government knows that selling the work to the highest bidding private company knows that the great unwashed will be in uproar if they do and that's why it will never be done properly

joey100

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118040951#Comment_118040951

That's exactly what we have. Individual organisations apply for funding, there is tendering processes, renewed every three years and applied for renewal within that period yearly. These organisations are reviewed by a government department. The organisations are registered charities for tax purposes and the fact they don't generate profits. What you have described is exactly what's in place in my sector.

But thanks for calling me a useless unfireable public servant. Appreciate that.

Lillyfae

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118041076#Comment_118041076

The scenario you have outlined above is making work and you know it. You might be very good at your job and diligent in doing it, but whether all of the work you (your department) do is necessary to ensure that government money is not exploited or not is very much up for debate. Tendering and applying for funding are 2 different things. You've said it yourself that there are too many charities. Tenders would create competition and one would ultimately win over another, applying for funding suggests they can all have (do) a bit and hope for the best.

joey100

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118041236#Comment_118041236

Your right they are two different things. The tender is put out every 3 years and the best proposal gets the tender, but they don't automatically get the funding every year, they have to re-apply, so even within that 3 year cycle they aren't fully secure.

Your making broad sweeping statements of all charities based on what you know.

The charity sector can't win. On one hand we have people saying there needs to be more oversight and governance, I've shown how that is in place. Then it's said that the only reason that is there is to create jobs. I can say for sure that if I wasn't in place and the charities employee's were all public servants there would be a lot more cost.

We are told there are too many charities, I agree, but when we outline why there is so many charities we are told that the government doesn't need any more public servants so they should stay the way they are.

Lillyfae

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118041377#Comment_118041377

I'm not making broad sweeping statements on anything. You said that there's no other example of corruption in charities, we know that's not true, even with the ridiculous hoop jumping that's going on to "regulate". There are also too many charities doing similar work, and that hasn't got anything to do with more or less public servants.

mariaalice

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118041407#Comment_118041407

Yes, its very much to do with public servants, the work the NGO and charities do has to be done by someone, useless you are making the point that the services provided by charities/NGOs are not needed?

joey100

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118041407#Comment_118041407

I said there's no example of corruption in the charities I work with, well in the 15 years I've been working in the organisation. I never mentioned anything about other charities.

There's another broad sweeping statement 'There's too many charities doing similar work'. To go along with your 'useless, unfireable public servants'.

The exact reason there is so many charities in the area I work in, and that's all I've ever talked about, is because the government have decided not to directly employ workers. That they will only fund organisations registered as charities. Tenders are put out and the best value for money organisation, which has to be registered as a charity, gets the tender. Unless the government change their policy that will always be the case.

mariaalice

Who should be providing the services the current NGOs and charities do if charities were abolished?

Lillyfae

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118041492#Comment_118041492

The work should be officially privatized and the overheads it entails to regulate the sectors should be born by the private sector there. Charities should be fundraising to take sick children to Disneyland, NGOs should be building farms in Africa- not housing half of inner city Dublin.

mariaalice

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118041595#Comment_118041595

Privatized services previously provided by a charity or NGO would provide a better and better value service are you sure of that?

Lillyfae

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118041836#Comment_118041836

Yes, because instead of "oh aren't you very good providing charity" attitude it would be "here's your remit and this is what you're getting paid for it" (not funded, paid). The onus is on them to provide a service properly, one that withstands unannounced audit. Not audits multiple times per contract, probably receiving adequate warning of such too.

Ireland isn't the only country in the world. There are already examples of government services being run privately and efficiently that are ripe for copying in other countries

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118041407#Comment_118041407

I'm not making broad sweeping statements on anything.

"useless, unfireable public servants" - sounds like a broad sweeping statement to me 🙄

Hotblack Desiato

@joey100 "The fact they are charities and not services provided by the government is solely so that they don't become public servants and be entitled to pensions and other rights."

So the workers get shafted on the twin altars of "charity" and the endless public and political desire to stick it to the public sector.

These workers got the public sector pay cuts on the way down, but then the government didn't want to pay them restoration on the way back up. It's exploitation pure and simple.

Lillyfae

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118043085#Comment_118043085

There are plenty of great public servants aswell I’m sure. I realize that these employees aren’t homogeneous.

BrianD3

So, has anyone here ever needed to use a charity as a service user? I have and am - homecare services for a relative that the HSE will not provide directly or through outsourcing to agencies. Instead, it fobs people off to charities/NGOs. At one stage, I was fobbed off with a glossy brochure, "they'll help you, bye now". Rang them - sorry we don't provide that service where you live. Even when I have had success with securing services, the service cannot be relied on because, ah shur they're doing their best and it's CHARITY.

It is a monumental shambles and I'd love to see evidence of the financial benefit vs the downside. State outsources important social services to a large number of charities which are funded from taxation as well as asking for donations. With each charity also needing appropriately remunerated "top talent" to organise these activities. Oh and we also need a charity regulator with its own senior staff in case the charity doesn't behave. This seems crazy. Even if the charity workers are paid less than a public servant would be, how much of that saving is eaten up with duplication, administration and lack of economies of scale.

The next thing that I predict will happen if it hasn't already is there will be another charity scandal and we'll be told that the charities regulator is completely under resourced. Hands thrown up in the air, shur what can we do. Someone in the charity gets hung out to dry and on we go until the next scandal.

On the efficiencies, Family Carers Ireland is a lobby group and charity that also provides homecare services that the recipient pays for. According to their website, the charge is "from 23 euros per hour". That is similar to, if not slightly MORE than what some of the HSE's private sector, for profit agencies charge private clients. Those evil capitalist bastards!

And while this mess is ultimately the fault of successive governments, turkeys don't vote for Christmas either. We also have at least one former politician employed as CEO of a major charity, hmmm.

Charities should be making great efforts to abolish themselves. Are they? I've come across some people in charities who are completely blinkered about the bigger picture and don't give the impression of wanting to make themselves redundant.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118043504#Comment_118043504

"Some of my best friends are public servants"

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118041595#Comment_118041595

Why do you assume that a privatised service (which by definition will include a profit margin on top of the costs) will be more efficient? Have you any idea how difficult it is to commission privatised services for something like residential care for people with disabilities? Would you REALLY want the quality of life of the person with a disability in your family in the hands of the cheapest bidder?

mariaalice

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118044151#Comment_118044151

That is a bit of a stretch, a very concentrated area of the city center seemed to have a disproportionate amount of vulnerable people. A historical analysis of why this is would be interesting. The closure of the likes of the big psychiatric hospitals must have something to do with the number of vulnerable people in the community. Grangegorman ... in the the1950s and 1960s, more than 20,000 people were living behind the high walls of the mental hospitals.

Lillyfae

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118044741#Comment_118044741

Who said anything about cheap? Pay peanuts, get monkeys. Having said that, the costs are as high as they get right now, and for what?

A longer term view of service provision needs to be taken, rather than constantly trying to firefight what's there at any given moment.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118046197#Comment_118046197

Isn't that how your beloved tendering works - the cheapest bidder wins? The problem is we're not buying widgets here - so setting and measuring quality criteria for human services is difficult or impossible.