AP1 and AP2 Posts

Floricwil

Hi,

Can someone explain to me what the difference between an AP1 and AP2 post is? Am I correct in thinking that a post is advertised but there is no job description....? If so, how do they decide where to place to you? Also, what is the financial remuneration with each post? Is it worth it?

Thanks

Random sample

The duties involved will be different depending on what sort of school you are in. The principal will usually fill the jobs with whatever the needs of the school are that aren’t being met in current posts.

Ap1 is around €8000 per year, ap2 around €4000, exact figures are on the union websites.

You can usually guess what the post will be... like if a year head retires and ap1 in advertised, it will more than likely be a year head position.

Is it worth it? Probably more hassle than it is worth, but if you want to move up the leadership ladder, they are steps along the way that most people have to climb.

joebloggs32

Also worth noting that an AP1 post holder has their timetable reduced by 4 hours in the ETB sector and C&C sector, but not in the voluntary sector.

Floricwil

joebloggs32 wrote: »

Also worth noting that an AP1 post holder has their timetable reduced by 4 hours in the ETB sector and C&C sector, but not in the voluntary sector.

So AP2 gets nothing off their timetable? Is is the €8k and €4k pensionable?

joebloggs32

Floricwil wrote: »

So AP2 gets nothing off their timetable? Is is the €8k and €4k pensionable?

Correct on both counts.
No alleviation of hours for AP2 in any type of school, and both become pensionable after 4 years.

am_zarathustra

Ap2 is just under 4 and AP1 is €8,968. Works out at 330 extra a month I think. It's a lot of work and dependent on the school. Your roles can change every year and just Year Head alone would not really be in keeping with the new system. You might get Year Head and something else like numeracy or wellbeing. It really depends on the school.

It's good experience and you can make it what you want but be aware that you need to be willing to work harder or smarter or both preferably than those around you to maintain a healthy work environment. People are supportive of post holders they feel work hard but the opposite can be true too.

Helps you understand how schools run especially if you have further ambitions. Gives you a taste of what goes on and how to effectively run teams and create good working environments and positive attitudes to change. Not enough time is spent of cohension by management in most schools and it's something that would really benefit teachers.

Random sample

am_zarathustra wrote: »

Your roles can change every year and just Year Head alone would not really be in keeping with the new system. You might get Year Head and something else like numeracy or wellbeing. It really depends on the school.

Really? God, year head could be a full time job in my school without teaching, never mind extra duties. What size school are you in? We have 250 per year group, and well-being is an ap2 post separately. Numeracy isn’t at post status yet though! But it’s well covered under deis.

ethical

Be careful what you wish for!
Anyone tuned in to Conference yesterday would have come across a good discussion on Posts.
The criteria was changed a few years ago,previous to this a weighting was given to the level of experience a candidate had,not so much any longer.
The "new system" is not fit for purpose and needs to be re drawn again was the outcome of yesterdays discussion.
One teacher gave an example of applying for one of these posts and he was not successful.The "preferred" candidate got the job with damn all transparency shown to the unsuccessful person.Yet this person applied again ,a year later,when another post was advertised and told Conference that his marks were extremely higher this time around,eventhough he admitted that he did not change anything from his perspective!

There are appeals system but unfortunately they are weighted very much on the side of the employer,and if it happens to be the Nuns or the ETB just forget about it as they are so secretive they make Putin look very open and transparent.

On renumeration ,a friend tells me she gets an extra €30 per pay cheque for an AP2 post and an endless amount of hassle which consumes the €30 rather quickly!

Sorry if this puts a dampener on your enthusiasm!...but Posts are not what they used to be back in the old days where it really was "money for doing nothing"...its the other extreme now "nothing but lots of work for damn all money"

Also bear in mind that young,non unionised teachers are asked/told to take on jobs that were once Posts,of course they do not get any money for this ................but may stand a chance of getting a 3hour CID come next year!!! Good luck!!!

am_zarathustra

I actually really enjoy my post but I know a lot who don't. I think it comes down to how much you already do outside of your job, do you read circulars, are you interested in new initiatives, will you plan a three year SSE. I like seeing things come to fruition. I find the changing keeps you sharp too, a new set of eyes on a problem can be invaluable. In a school of your size I'd expect year head and something else small. I'm in a small school but have 2 years and 3 other roles (2 big, 1 small) but they are very in keeping with my own interests at the moment.

It's not worth the money, I'd make it a lot faster and easier with a few grinds.

The new system certainly has its issue but if seniority was a massive component I wouldn't have gotten the job and staff were very supportive of me getting it given the work I had done and was continuing to do. I think it depends on the attitude of the person and whether by and large the people who got the posts are deserving. If your handing them out to people who haven't put time or work on because they are your mates or agree with you then the schools in trouble anyway. Certainly no one thinks I'm backing management, I probably disagree with them more than anyone and I think the idea of the "inner circle" can be toxic, and in some cases, perpetuated by the post holder for whatever reason. I never did busy work either, the work I had done was directly about improving educational outcomes for the kids.

Generally I think integrity and honesty will keep you on the right side of staff and management anyway. I know who I am and why I make the decisiolns I do, if I'm wrong I'll apologize but generally I can back my position. My priority is the kids and thats where my list stops so people know where they stand and where I stand. There will always be a few on staff who don't like the system, kill them with kindness would be my advice.

Mardy Bum

The wording of that motion at the conference was an embarrassment to the profession, "Every teacher deserves a post". The entitlement is outrageous.

27061986a

How come no reduction in hours for voluntary schools for AP 1 post?
Also would a guidance counsellor be considered an AP1 post or is that separate altogether?

am_zarathustra

27061986a wrote: »

How come no reduction in hours for voluntary schools for AP 1 post?
Also would a guidance counsellor be considered an AP1 post or is that separate altogether?

Completely separate. You could be a GC and have a post but it would be extra work to your job, you can't have a lost where the responsibilities are just the responsibilities of your normal job.

The hours off are a historic quirk, some voluntary schools do get it off but it's not a requirement. I'm here someone here knows why, I don't actually know, maybe a TUI versus ASTI issue in the past or something.

The old VEC system is full of strange quirks. I get a work phone, it's bizarre. I suppose historically they were tougher schools often in deprived areas with more challenging kids but this is certainly not universal.

am_zarathustra

Mardy Bum wrote: »

The wording of that motion at the conference was an embarrassment to the profession, "Every teacher deserves a post". The entitlement is outrageous.

The vast majority of teachers I know have no interest in posts, they are a lot of work so unless you are interested in governance and management it's probably not worth it really. Frequently hear of people giving them back now, the end of year reviews and increase accountability make them a very different proposal than in the past.

This is ridiculous motion title. Like any job there will be some deserving people passed over unfortunely but not everyone actually wants the responsibility of a post. You can do a lot of good if your engaged and interested and can get others of board or you can be a detrimental influence on the school .. .. .. it's important to consider your motivations.

27061986a

I always assumed that a guidance counsellor was a full time post ie no teaching hours

Random sample

27061986a wrote: »

I always assumed that a guidance counsellor was a full time post ie no teaching hours

It would depend on the size of the school. With lca a and lcvp a lot of guidance counsellors would have class contact time too.

doc321

I remember back in my secondary school days we had form tutors at junior cert level and my Irish teacher was classified as my form tutor in leaving cert years however as far as I remember we didnt have an allocated class time at leaving cert but we did for junior cert. Does that role still exist and if you are a form tutor for a class group do you get any reduction in teaching hours for admin and meeting work? Also is a form tutor classified as an a post of responsibility?

joebloggs32

27061986a wrote: »

I always assumed that a guidance counsellor was a full time post ie no teaching hours

Post holders are Assistant Principals.

Being a guidance counsellor has absolutely no link to being a post holder.

The hours available to employ a guidance counsellor will be based primarily on the size of the school.

Mardy Bum

doc321 wrote: »

I remember back in my secondary school days we had form tutors at junior cert level and my Irish teacher was classified as my form tutor in leaving cert years however as far as I remember we didnt have an allocated class time at leaving cert but we did for junior cert. Does that role still exist and if you are a form tutor for a class group do you get any reduction in teaching hours for admin and meeting work? Also is a form tutor classified as an a post of responsibility?

No. It is unpaid. In most schools now it is part of the timetable.

Alex86Eire

doc321 wrote: »

I remember back in my secondary school days we had form tutors at junior cert level and my Irish teacher was classified as my form tutor in leaving cert years however as far as I remember we didnt have an allocated class time at leaving cert but we did for junior cert. Does that role still exist and if you are a form tutor for a class group do you get any reduction in teaching hours for admin and meeting work? Also is a form tutor classified as an a post of responsibility?

I've been a class teacher every year since I graduated. In some schools you have a 'tutorial class' on your timetable but in my current school we don't. Wasn't a post of responsibility in any school I've been in. Its a lot of work in my experience if you're a tutor to junior classes.

Random sample

No school would have enough ap2’s available to make class tutor a post of responsibility. We do well to get year heads.

Mardy Bum

am_zarathustra wrote: »

The vast majority of teachers I know have no interest in posts, they are a lot of work so unless you are interested in governance and management it's probably not worth it really. Frequently hear of people giving them back now, the end of year reviews and increase accountability make them a very different proposal than in the past.

This is ridiculous motion title. Like any job there will be some deserving people passed over unfortunely but not everyone actually wants the responsibility of a post. You can do a lot of good if your engaged and interested and can get others of board or you can be a detrimental influence on the school .. .. .. it's important to consider your motivations.

The Examiner picked up on it and highlighted the obvious hypocrisy of seeking equality and then seeking to remove promotional opportunities from younger colleagues. They made the same point about S&S. The lack of any defining principle from the union in relation to equality is juvenile in the extreme - "Equality means teachers higher up the seniority list are automatically better and more deserving".

am_zarathustra

Mardy Bum wrote: »

The Examiner picked up on it and highlighted the obvious hypocrisy of seeking equality and then seeking to remove promotional opportunities from younger colleagues. They made the same point about S&S. The lack of any defining principle from the union in relation to equality is juvenile in the extreme - "Equality means teachers higher up the seniority list are automatically better and more deserving".

I must check that out, I'm glad someone did. The unions should know better given the rep the have with younger staff as is.

Older teaches have better pay and condition options (pensions too) than younger staff. An AP2 would be a long time gaining back the tend of thousands most have lost already. I'm lucky to be on the post 2004 pension, I just made it in the door but the discrepancies in that and those who starred a year after me is crazy.......never mind the really old pensions.........and the 2 years training

itrip

The power of teaching unions to wield power with govt is slipping year by year...threatening strikes rarely gets public support which is to govt advantage...unions need to consider more creative ways to deal with issues..they also need to talk to each other and agree joint strategies before raising any flags in the media....young teachers need to see leadership from unions...change is coming, chances are there will be new approach to leaving cert within 10 years(possibly all 2nd level teaching) it's needed, and this is when unions must be on their game.

shtpEdthePlum

The reason that they said every teacher deserves a post is that the job of the postholder now is to delegate the work among staff. They're operating in a management capacity to ensure that everyone is contributing.

Mardy Bum

shtpEdthePlum wrote: »

The reason that they said every teacher deserves a post is that the job of the postholder now is to delegate the work among staff. They're operating in a management capacity to ensure that everyone is contributing.

This is fairytale stuff. Are year heads delegating? ICT co-ordinators delegating? TY/LCA/SSE co-ordinators delegating? Unbelievable.

mtoutlemonde

Mardy Bum wrote: »

This is fairytale stuff. Are year heads delegating? ICT co-ordinators delegating? TY/LCA/SSE co-ordinators delegating? Unbelievable.

It's distributive leadership - it improves morale as all stakeholders have an opinion in the running of the school - some are paid, some are not. The day of the autocratic leader is gone for the betterment of the school community.

Mardy Bum

mtoutlemonde wrote: »

It's distributive leadership - it improves morale as all stakeholders have an opinion in the running of the school - some are paid, some are not. The day of the autocratic leader is gone for the betterment of the school community.

Palming a post off isn't distributed leadership. Doing the work of your post is different from encouraging staff to be involved in decision making.

shtpEdthePlum

Mardy Bum wrote: »

This is fairytale stuff. Are year heads delegating? ICT co-ordinators delegating? TY/LCA/SSE co-ordinators delegating? Unbelievable.

I'm not familiar with secondary school structure, but at primary level it's not uncommon for the postholder to be given a list of the tasks that need doing by management. Then they distribute the tasks among their colleagues and oversee them.

As i said, i don't have experience with second level so I'm not sure what the workload would be for postholders who are year heads, ICT Co-ordinators etc. How many posts would a typical SS have, is it same as primary with just the one or two?

Mardy Bum

shtpEdthePlum wrote: »

I'm not familiar with secondary school structure, but at primary level it's not uncommon for the postholder to be given a list of the tasks that need doing by management. Then they distribute the tasks among their colleagues and oversee them.

As i said, i don't have experience with second level so I'm not sure what the workload would be for postholders who are year heads, ICT Co-ordinators etc. How many posts would a typical SS have, is it same as primary with just the one or two?

There are over 10 in most schools 600+ schools.

mtoutlemonde

Mardy Bum wrote: »

Palming a post off isn't distributive leadership. Doing the work of your post is different from encouraging staff to be involved in decision making.

Well according to my lecturers on the leadership programme and the papers I’ve been reading - this type of leadership is the idea of empowering staff.

I also heard that an AP1 is 8 hours extra per week and AP2 is 4 - in a big school - it would be difficult to cover all the bases and teach a full timetable.

Do I agree with it - not really. I don’t do anyone else’s work but I was a class tutor in a previous school and enjoyed it. The younger teachers would be chomping at the bit to help out and the older ones who want a post. Personally, I won’t ever apply for a post as I would be financially better off marking for the SEC - three weeks hard work with no dealing with whatever during the year.

Mardy Bum

mtoutlemonde wrote: »

Well according to my lecturers on the leadership programme and the papers I’ve been reading - this type of leadership is the idea of empowering staff.

I also heard that an AP1 is 8 hours extra per week and AP2 is 4 - in a big school - it would be difficult to cover all the bases and teach a full timetable.

Do I agree with it - not really. I don’t do anyone else’s work but I was a class tutor in a previous school and enjoyed it. The younger teachers would be chomping at the bit to help out and the older ones who want a post. Personally, I won’t ever apply for a post as I would be financially better off marking for the SEC - three weeks hard work with no dealing with whatever during the year.

Anyone that says empowering staff should involve them taking more time out from their teaching to assist the ICT coordinator in setting up computers/discipline students for the year head/run a fundraising committee is a snake oil salesman who has no idea of the role of a teacher.

Random sample

Mardy Bum wrote: »

This is fairytale stuff. Are year heads delegating? ICT co-ordinators delegating? TY/LCA/SSE co-ordinators delegating? Unbelievable.

Ict coordinator sets up a digital strategy group and delegates work throughout. Year heads delegate work to the class tutor, programme coordinators delegate to the class teachers. Well-being coordinator sets up a well-being committee to plan activities. Deis coordinator oversees the work of the deis committees, and every teacher in some schools is expected to be a member of a deis committee, with the chair rotating annually.

am_zarathustra

The bulk of the work and planning should be done by the post holder. If your ICT it would be certainly sensible to ask the SEN department to list any resources they might need, or if they would like a particular software set over another but the policy writing, budgeting, and most implementation etc would be down to the post holder. You can delegate that work, or you shouldn't. Implementation to some level will need delegation. I like the diffuser leadership model, not everyone is passionate or cares about every area but most people would have a valuable comment or two about their own experience of it.

I find staff don't mind being on well defined, effective teams with a sense their opinion is valued. But buying treats, asking as opposed to delegating work, and saying thank you go along way. Keeping a team positive and forward thinking is a skill in itself.

Mardy Bum

Random sample wrote: »

Ict coordinator sets up a digital strategy group and delegates work throughout. Year heads delegate work to the class tutor, programme coordinators delegate to the class teachers. Well-being coordinator sets up a well-being committee to plan activities. Deis coordinator oversees the work of the deis committees, and every teacher in some schools is expected to be a member of a deis committee, with the chair rotating annually.

If the teacher is doing work that eats into their own planning time for these activities all you are doing is robbing Peter to pay Paul. Digital strategy at most involves teachers upskilling which they can use their 10 hours for. Year heads asking tutors to read out notices, go on school trip during the day, etc. isn't extra work that requires payment. Class time should be used for wellbeing initiatives with students. Being on a committee and actually doing something are also very different propositions.

All I can see from here is that some schools are taking advantage of teachers under the distributed leadership banner.

lulublue22

shtpEdthePlum wrote: »

I'm not familiar with secondary school structure, but at primary level it's not uncommon for the postholder to be given a list of the tasks that need doing by management. Then they distribute the tasks among their colleagues and oversee them.

As i said, i don't have experience with second level so I'm not sure what the workload would be for postholders who are year heads, ICT Co-ordinators etc. How many posts would a typical SS have, is it same as primary with just the one or two?

I’m primary - have not had that experience- Consensus is one thing delegating work that you are paid extra to do is another. Promotion is so limited in primary with very little posts available depending on school size and age of post holders that it is fair cheeky to expect others to take on work that a post holder is paid to do - Over the span of a career it can be a substantial difference in income.

keoclassic

mtoutlemonde wrote: »

It's distributive leadership - it improves morale as all stakeholders have an opinion in the running of the school - some are paid, some are not. The day of the autocratic leader is gone for the betterment of the school community.

This post is exactly what is wrong with the way posts are currently set up, it creates an environment where responsibility is greatly diminished for tasks not being completed. It reminds me of the HSE middle managment structure. It rewards "delegators" and gives very little to the person who actually does the job. If you want a post, be prepared to do it yourself and don't expect to form committees for the duties of said post. Every staff meeting over the last number of years that I was teaching sought committees for this and that by management. Do the job you are paid to do and do it yourself.

Empowering workers in this way is utter tripe!

noplacehere

keoclassic wrote: »

This post is exactly what is wrong with the way posts are currently set up, it creates an environment where responsibility is greatly diminished for tasks not being completed. It reminds me of the HSE middle managment structure. It rewards "delegators" and gives very little to the person who actually does the job. If you want a post, be prepared to do it yourself and don't expect to form committees for the duties of said post. Every staff meeting over the last number of years that I was teaching sought committees for this and that by management. Do the job you are paid to do and do it yourself.

Empowering workers in this way is utter tripe!

I completely agree. I think it’s fundamentally unfair to have some teachers getting paid for additional work outside the classrooms and others not. I think the whole posts system is an absolute farce. And the chairs of the subject departments should be paid given the expectations of inspections these days

lulublue22

keoclassic wrote: »

This post is exactly what is wrong with the way posts are currently set up, it creates an environment where responsibility is greatly diminished for tasks not being completed. It reminds me of the HSE middle managment structure. It rewards "delegators" and gives very little to the person who actually does the job. If you want a post, be prepared to do it yourself and don't expect to form committees for the duties of said post. Every staff meeting over the last number of years that I was teaching sought committees for this and that by management. Do the job you are paid to do and do it yourself.

Empowering workers in this way is utter tripe!

It seems to me to be more like increasing staff workload with out renumeration. Staff can feel valued without taking on tasks that have been allocated to post holders. All post holders work in our school is outside of teaching hours ( as it should be) that in my book necessitates renumeration.

Mardy Bum

keoclassic wrote: »

This post is exactly what is wrong with the way posts are currently set up, it creates an environment where responsibility is greatly diminished for tasks not being completed. It reminds me of the HSE middle managment structure. It rewards "delegators" and gives very little to the person who actually does the job. If you want a post, be prepared to do it yourself and don't expect to form committees for the duties of said post. Every staff meeting over the last number of years that I was teaching sought committees for this and that by management. Do the job you are paid to do and do it yourself.

Empowering workers in this way is utter tripe!

This is more about a poor school culture probably led from the top than it is posts. Post should be clearly defined with responsibilities. In some schools the responsibilities are not defined which is an issue and allows "delegation".

Icsics

‘Building capacity’ ‘distributed leadership’ all that rubbish came in with the LAOS document & Ps DPs live by it because at their next ‘management interview’ as they climb the ‘career ladder’ that’s where the marks are awarded. In my experience posts can also be so vague as to be meaningless, ‘leading teaching & learning’ is an AP1 & I’d say the post holder herself would be hard presssed to explain it. It leads to bad feeling amongst staff & often the younger teachers, who don’t know any better, end up doing things that the post holder should be doing. The new breed of VPs is also an issue, VPs who play the system & don’t teach any classes (even though they should be on half a timetable) & again don’t appear to have any duties because absolutely everything is delegated. I am very happy without a post & if I get any ‘requests’ I redirect to the post holder.

keoclassic

Mardy Bum wrote: »

This is more about a poor school culture probably led from the top than it is posts. Post should be clearly defined with responsibilities. In some schools the responsibilities are not defined which is an issue and allows "delegation".

Correct and Right about the posts. But it exists in all schools that I taught in. I wouldn't say if has anything to do with school culture and more to do with taking advantage of as many people as you can. School culture is much more than poor management.

Mardy Bum

keoclassic wrote: »

Correct and Right about the posts. But it exists in all schools that I taught in. I wouldn't say if has anything to do with school culture and more to do with taking advantage of as many people as you can. School culture is much more than poor management.

Poor leadership will inevitably lead to a deteriorating culture. Irish schools are notorious for ill defined structures that inevitably lead to some people being taken advantage of. Some see leadership and management as inspirational quotes rather than the role of creating self sustaining systems in a school that can live on past the leader's term. This is also because of a lack of resources and poor leadership courses.

am_zarathustra

Mardy Bum wrote: »

Poor leadership will inevitably lead to a deteriorating culture. Irish schools are notorious for ill defined structures that inevitably lead to some people being taken advantage of. Some see leadership and management as inspirational quotes rather than the role of creating self sustaining systems in a school that can live on past the leader's term. This is also because of a lack of resources and poor leadership courses.

This is so important. The lack of lime management for principals makes them answerable to no one, the Dept should have a role but they don't seem to want to do anything. It's a fifedom, you can be lucky or unlucky really but it's a role of the dice, very little quality control.

And the self sustaining part is vital. People with good management skills should be indentified and trained like every other profession.