Being childfree during covid-19

caviardreams

How have people found the attitudes of those with children towards those without during the pandemic? Especially at work?

Those with children sometimes seem to discount that it's a challenging time for everyone, including those without children.

I know it's not popular to say, but a lot of work has also fallen on to me as a childfree employee versus those with children where a lot of allowances are made in terms of output and productivity. This was fine for a few months, but after a year of it, it's grating a little, as there is no recognition of it, and now it seems to almost be an expectation/entitlement.

Not sure what the long term implications might be post-pandemic (if we ever get there)

Effects

Yeah, I think you really don't understand how hard it is for people to work from home while having to look after one/two/three little shíts.

But I've only got one kid, and I still get a load of 'you don't know how hard it is' from people with two kids.

And the second post proves your point OP!

Sparkey84

of course it is a challenge for everyone but all people with or without children relate to their own perspectives.

if persons x's biggest problem for the whole pandemic is childcare then through their eyes childcare is the biggest problem of the pandemic period

if person y's biggest problem is paying the bills then money is the biggest problem.

very few of us are self aware of just how narrow our view is.

i had to go to work during pandemic i had no choice but if i did work form home and mind kids in tandem then i would expect concessions on productivity because it would be harder.

i know you don't have kids but if you had another commitment like caring for an elderly relitive during working from home i expect that might drop your productivity?

pinkypinky

I don't have kids but I am doing a full time masters while working from home. I have reasonable employers but suspect more slack would be cut for 'sick child' over 'essay deadline'. On the other hand, they know the masters isn't forever...

Sparkey84

pinkypinky wrote: »

I don't have kids but I am doing a full time masters while working from home. I have reasonable employers but suspect more slack would be cut for 'sick child' over 'essay deadline'. On the other hand, they know the masters isn't forever...

fair play im doing a masters myself at the moment so can relate. you are most likely correct about a sick child being viewed differently than an essay deadline, i don't fully agree with your broader though. the parents in your work did not pick their current working conditions. they are making the best of it im sure and that is all that can be reasonably expected. the childless employees may hold their productivity during the pandemic there is no reason mentioned why it should drop. if you are doing extra work without extra pay you have good reason to be annoyed, but with your boss not your co workers.

Sparkey84

sorry pinkypinky i thought you were op.

I think Sparkeys post above kinda misses the point. It's not about whether it's reasonable for a person working from home and minding their children at the same time to have a drop in productivity. It's about whether it's reasonable for an employer to expect the childfree employee to pick up the slack, for a more than a year now, with no recognition and so presumably no compensation for that extra work. It's great that employers are cutting those with children extra slack and it's perfectly reasonable that they need it but it's not really ok to burden others with the work just because they don't have children, certainly not without some form of reward for that.

Edited to add: I was replying to Sparkeys original post.

Sparkey84

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I think Sparkeys post above kinda misses the point. It's not about whether it's reasonable for a person working from home and minding their children at the same time to have a drop in productivity. It's about whether it's reasonable for an employer to expect the childfree employee to pick up the slack, for a more than a year now, with no recognition and so presumably no compensation for that extra work. It's great that employers are cutting those with children extra slack and it's perfectly reasonable that they need it but it's not really ok to burden others with the work just because they don't have children, certainly not without some form of reward for that.

Edited to add: I was replying to Sparkeys original post.

ðŸ‘

Sparkey84

you had not seen my second post and then i replied before seeing your edit. hence me quoting you

Sparkey84

Sparkey84 wrote: »

think the end of my second post covers that, more work without more pay is unreasonable of course. but that is an issue to be had with your boss not your co workers.

I could well be wrong but I took the first part of the op

"Those with children sometimes seem to discount that it's a challenging time for everyone, including those without children."

to be seperate from the issue with their employer. I didn't feel they were implying that their Co workers were expecting them to pick up the slack. But as I say I may be wrong. I've certainly come up against the above. Not in a work related environment. Just in general, some people with children having an attitude that I couldn't possibly be struggling as much as they are during this pandemic.

Bodjhrjekekr

myshirt wrote: »

It is absolutely right that this is the case.

I personally believe one of the lessons that should come out of this is to recognise we are too light on those without kids in terms of the productivity we need out of them. Albeit I wouldn't entirely turn practices on its head.

My own area is Finance. I believe one lesson that needs to come out of this as we move I to recovery is to reshape tax policy to reduce the tax burden on those with kids, and increase the tax requirements for those without kids (as long as they are earning more than 30k). For example, reduce the standard rate cut off point.

I think childless people have gotten away with it too long. Taking more out of this economy than contributing back. It's not to say people should be compelled to have children, but it is to say that they must pay more tax.

A lot of people who are childless are also single - its difficult enough to pay rent and bills, and extremely difficult to buy a house (impossible for most) already when doing it alone, if anything I think there should be concessions/tax breaks for single people (especially when it comes to housing)

caviardreams

Peintre Celebre wrote: »

Is this post a piss take? If people want to have children they should provide for them themselves and not penalise those who don't.

It obviously is. Children probably use more public services than anyone - education, healthcare etc., so arguably parents should pay more tax I'm joking with this - same tax for all!
Also isn't child benefit essentially a tax refund for most people because they have kids? Child benefit is paid for by those who don't have children!

Buile - yes they were meant as two separate points
(i) the "you have it so easy as you don't have kids to look after" argument (and yes, in my case I have an older parent to care for too but this is never asked about, or even considered as a possibility, just because I maybe don't talk about it 24/7 like people often do of their children)

(ii) the being expected to pick up the slack at work (even with a non-child caring responsibility - this is just not seen in the same way at all)

The reason I don't have children is because I think you need to be willing to accept *all* of it as part of the deal including looking after a sick child 24/7 if it comes to it. It goes with the territory. I'm not, so I don't have kids. A bit of complaining about the stress I totally get, but honestly it's a daily narrative with quite a lot of people.

GT89

Effects wrote: »

Yeah, I think you really don't understand how hard it is for people to work from home while having to look after one/two/three little shíts.

But I've only got one kid, and I still get a load of 'you don't know how hard it is' from people with two kids.

No matter how hard you have it there'll always be someone who thinks they have it harder than you

mrslancaster

myshirt wrote: »

It is absolutely right that this is the case.

I personally believe one of the lessons that should come out of this is to recognise we are too light on those without kids in terms of the productivity we need out of them. Albeit I wouldn't entirely turn practices on its head.

My own area is Finance. I believe one lesson that needs to come out of this as we move I to recovery is to reshape tax policy to reduce the tax burden on those with kids, and increase the tax requirements for those without kids (as long as they are earning more than 30k). For example, reduce the standard rate cut off point.

I think childless people have gotten away with it too long. Taking more out of this economy than contributing back. It's not to say people should be compelled to have children, but it is to say that they must pay more tax.

rubbish. What about the takeout by kids eg creche subsidies, primary & secondary school, university subsidies, free gp & dental, and I'm sure there's more.
Childless tax payers contribute more than they take back in those situations.

Saying that as a parent whose kids enjoyed those benefits. Always felt that childless people got a bad deal.

Edit: allowances made for parents over childless employees happened before covid too. lots of examples of discrimination by employers

Sheep Shagger

We have 2 kids, I wish I was treated more favorably by the boss (who has kids herself although teenagers)!

happyday

myshirt wrote: »

It is absolutely right that this is the case.

I personally believe one of the lessons that should come out of this is to recognise we are too light on those without kids in terms of the productivity we need out of them. Albeit I wouldn't entirely turn practices on its head.

My own area is Finance. I believe one lesson that needs to come out of this as we move I to recovery is to reshape tax policy to reduce the tax burden on those with kids, and increase the tax requirements for those without kids (as long as they are earning more than 30k). For example, reduce the standard rate cut off point.

I think childless people have gotten away with it too long. Taking more out of this economy than contributing back. It's not to say people should be compelled to have children, but it is to say that they must pay more tax.

Are you saying that people who don't have children should be penalized by paying more tax?

I have children and I think that is totally out of order.

Evd-Burner

I find this thread ironic to my own circumstances, I'm on a team of 6. Four out of the six have kids at home. There have been 4 bereavements over the year (aunt, cousin, sister and brother in law), 3 from the team members with kids and 1 without.

From then 2 without kids:
Both have taken time off for mental health prior to any bereavement etc, after bereavement one took extended leave. The other is useless at doing anything since we starting working from home, they may as well not log on at all.

The pressure on the other 4 of us has been extremely difficult!

BuboBubo

I want to focus on the positives of being childfree, during these unprecedented times.

It's lovely not to have a needy whining sprog biting at your heels isn't it. Never take our freedom for granted, undisturbed peaceful bliss.

When I leave something down, it's there when I go back, not in a toddler's mouth. No fcuking Peppa pig, no mind numbing dross constantly blaring on the tv.

No little Kim jong un wannabe dictating your whole life it's great.

As for the work issue, just say "no" more often. "Can't do that", "I've plans, sorry" "I need to go/do/be... whatever" be vague but straight. No point being a patsy just because the rest of them expect it. Do the job you're paid to do, not the job others are paid to do.

Sparkey84

caviardreams wrote: »

Buile - yes they were meant as two separate points
(i) the "you have it so easy as you don't have kids to look after" argument (and yes, in my case I have an older parent to care for too but this is never asked about, or even considered as a possibility, just because I maybe don't talk about it 24/7 like people often do of their children)

(ii) the being expected to pick up the slack at work (even with a non-child caring responsibility - this is just not seen in the same way at all)

most people will talk 24/7 about what they are more passionate about, that is not a character flaw, can be annoying from the outside if the listener is not like minded, fair enough.

you said you were not willing to take 100% of what comes with a child, well empathy from other parents that understand what you are going through is in there somewhere. and that may well translate to some slack from your boss. that is a human reaction

an obscure example; if both yourself and your boss were gaa county players pre covid and struggled with managing time to train i expect the shared issue would cause a bond and translate to slack being cut.

in work there is always a row over who will do a shift on Christmas day/night. one maybe two of the people with no kids or grown kids gone foreign will volunteer to work in place of a co worker with young kids. i benefited one christmas from this and was very grateful but
it did not mean i expected it the next year. my decision to have kids should not negativity affect the life of someone who decided not to.

in work you should not be expected to pick up the slack without fair compensation being offered. go fight your corner with the boss.

R.D. aka MR.D

I think the pandemic has thrown up a good few issues.

I think that it is not only people with children, for example, on our team who all either don't have children or their children are grown up, the issue of moving out of Dublin has caused massive issues. We must go into the office a couple times a week and in level 5 this has fallen on the shoulders of those who live in Dublin because it 'isn't fair' to ask people to travel long distances.

So I think the issue of parents is just another example of how this situation has created an unfair burden on people due circumstances.

Personally, I feel extremely sorry for colleagues with small children. Rather them than me as I always say! I usually offer to cover Christmas etc because I'd rather take the leave at another time because at the end of the day, while it might be controversial to say, people who don't have children have an easier time than those who do. That obviously is a choice they made but unless I'm forced into something I really don't want to do because I'm childless then I'm grand with it for the most part.

We all have something that makes the current situation difficult for us whether we have kids or not. A lot of the times though, it is really about making it clear to any boss that you won't be forced into unfair circumstances due to not having children. If someone is getting preferential treatment due to being a parent then you need to look at how you can use that to your advantage and get concessions for yourself. Difficult at the moment but there is such a parents vs. non-parents divide caused by COVID that I think is ruining workplace relationships.

shesty

The thing about having small kids is that they aren't small forever.Mine are right now but I can see how in time I would be willing to take some bit of the load for someone who DOES have small kids at that point, because I know how hard it is.

It is bad management though if people who do not have responsibilities with kids are constantly covering for those who do.That problem is the manager, not the kids, and needs to be addressed.

I can understand both sides of this. I don't envy those trying to do a full time job in what can essentially be a creche if they are very young. But the flip side is accommodating people can become a total piss-take if you let it.

Try saying no once or twice and when asked why, outline the reasons why.

lainey_d_123

I find it laughable how patronising people with kids are to people without, especially women. I get so much smug pity, the 'poor you, it might not be too late' sort of thing from other women who have kids.

Then the pandemic kicked off and suddenly they want to be victims and martyrs. Suddenly they're having a harder time than the rest of us, actually having to look after the kids they chose to have. They expect special treatment, as if the rest of us don't have our own hardships and challenges, like health issues or relatives to care for, stuff we didn't choose.

I honestly think many people with kids are secretly jealous and resentful of those without. I suspect a lot of them made a bad decision because they went along with the crowd like sheep and now realise they'd have been happier without a family but it's too late.

I do recognise that it must be challenging to have young kids at home vying for attention when you're trying to work, but I won't tolerate any expectation that I'll do people's work or compensate for them. I'll offer if I feel like it, but the second I get a whiff of entitlement or expectation, I'm out.

Jequ0n

lainey_d_123 wrote: »

Then the pandemic kicked off and suddenly they want to be victims and martyrs. Suddenly they're having a harder time than the rest of us, actually having to look after the kids they chose to have. They expect special treatment, as if the rest of us don't have our own hardships and challenges, like health issues or relatives to care for, stuff we didn't choose.

This 100%
Though it amuses me even more when other people with more kids call them up on it because they also get annoyed with the drama

beauf

caviardreams wrote: »

How have people found the attitudes of those with children towards those without during the pandemic? Especially at work?

Those with children sometimes seem to discount that it's a challenging time for everyone, including those without children.

I know it's not popular to say, but a lot of work has also fallen on to me as a childfree employee versus those with children where a lot of allowances are made in terms of output and productivity. This was fine for a few months, but after a year of it, it's grating a little, as there is no recognition of it, and now it seems to almost be an expectation/entitlement.

Not sure what the long term implications might be post-pandemic (if we ever get there)

Regardless of its during Covid or not, if you are constantly being asked to cover for others and doing extra work, and not being rewarded for it, you can always say no or move to somewhere that treats you better.

This was would be the same if you had other commitments and couldn't always commit to extra hours. You'd have to move to somewhere that doesn't require you to work extra hours. Usually public sector and/or unionized workplaces.

This is why in normal times, single people, with no out of work commitments of a partner or family commitments, (or anything else) usually get more opportunities in demanding jobs.

beauf

Uneven work loads is usually a management issues. But its up to the individual to draw a line in sand for themselves.

I've certainly quit jobs, where the workload was unreasonable.

beauf

Effects wrote: »

Yeah, I think you really don't understand how hard it is for people to work from home while having to look after one/two/three little shíts.

But I've only got one kid, and I still get a load of 'you don't know how hard it is' from people with two kids.

A single person might have other issues, depression etc, a person with one kid, might have a difficult kid, someone with 4 kids might have 4 angels and have no issues.

On the flip side, some people find everything difficult. that's just who they are.

YellowLead

It’s been my experience in a lot of workplaces that actually those with kids are the most hardworking - possibly because they have mouths to feed, I never met a parent who was a slacker.

I fully respect people who choose not to have kids, I don’t understand why other people would care or think negatively of them for it. Bizzare! I have to say it works both ways though - plenty of child free people like to lord it over parents as if they are intellectually superior for not procreating, and everybody who has kids just did so to follow societal expectations and is really a big eejit who doesn’t know how good life without kids is.

I say each to their own, there’s no right or wrong and let everybody have or not have as they wish.

magicbastarder

YellowLead wrote: »

It’s been my experience in a lot of workplaces that actually those with kids are the most hardworking - possibly because they have mouths to feed, I never met a parent who was a slacker.

i was bemused to see in a couple of colleagues, that when their first kid was born, for about the first six months their attitude was 'nothing is more important than my kid, the job comes second' (which is a perfectly healthy attitude in my book), but that fades into an 'oh ****, i've got to provide for this kid for the next couple of decades' and they went into overwork mode.

YellowLead

YellowLead wrote: »

It’s been my experience in a lot of workplaces that actually those with kids are the most hardworking - possibly because they have mouths to feed, I never met a parent who was a slacker.
.

Lol, the lads I work with openly admit to 'coming to work for a break'
Plenty of slackers
Some people work, some are lazy. That's the way people are made.

beauf

Sparkey84 wrote: »

of course it is a challenge for everyone but all people with or without children relate to their own perspectives.

if persons x's biggest problem for the whole pandemic is childcare then through their eyes childcare is the biggest problem of the pandemic period

if person y's biggest problem is paying the bills then money is the biggest problem.

very few of us are self aware of just how narrow our view is.

i had to go to work during pandemic i had no choice but if i did work form home and mind kids in tandem then i would expect concessions on productivity because it would be harder.

i know you don't have kids but if you had another commitment like caring for an elderly relitive during working from home i expect that might drop your productivity?

Some people are not very empathetic about other people, the world revolves around them and thats it. Its usually very noticeable, they'll spend the majority of every conversation talking about them. Doesn't matter if they have kids or not.

That said its a lot easier to know what's going on with other other people if you've experienced it, or someone close to you have experienced it.

So you might have a a brother or sister with kids, and you help out and even though you've no kids of your own, you will know and have experience of what's going. Other people will take no interest in siblings or friends with kids and thus will have no experience of it.

I say kids but it could be some issue like illness, or elderly inlaws of sibling.

Evd-Burner

bubblypop wrote: »

Lol, the lads I work with openly admit to 'coming to work for a break'
Plenty of slackers
Some people work, some are lazy. That's the way people are made.

Lol, most in work who have kids say this, I mean you can actually take a coffee break and lunch where you don't also have to prepare food for the kids and answer a million questions. I would argue its a mental breaker, where you can actually concentrate on something :P

beauf

Evd-Burner wrote: »

Lol, most in work who have kids say this, I mean you can actually take a coffee break and lunch where you don't also have to prepare food for the kids and answer a million questions. I would argue its a mental breaker, where you can actually concentrate on something :P

Change is as good a rest etc.

Its also a joke, not meant to be taken literally.

beauf

beauf wrote: »

Change is as good a rest etc.

Its also a joke, not meant to be taken literally.

You don't know the lads I work with

Sunny Disposition

lainey_d_123 wrote: »

I find it laughable how patronising people with kids are to people without, especially women. I get so much smug pity, the 'poor you, it might not be too late' sort of thing from other women who have kids.

Then the pandemic kicked off and suddenly they want to be victims and martyrs. Suddenly they're having a harder time than the rest of us, actually having to look after the kids they chose to have. They expect special treatment, as if the rest of us don't have our own hardships and challenges, like health issues or relatives to care for, stuff we didn't choose.

I honestly think many people with kids are secretly jealous and resentful of those without. I suspect a lot of them made a bad decision because they went along with the crowd like sheep and now realise they'd have been happier without a family but it's too late.

I do recognise that it must be challenging to have young kids at home vying for attention when you're trying to work, but I won't tolerate any expectation that I'll do people's work or compensate for them. I'll offer if I feel like it, but the second I get a whiff of entitlement or expectation, I'm out.

Of course you shouldn’t pick up the slack for anyone else, certainly not without extra pay.

I doubt many parents are jealous of people without kids though, most people just deal with what’s in front of them and don’t worry that much about whatever choices other people make. It’s the best way to live really.

Neyite

beauf wrote: »

A single person might have other issues, depression etc, a person with one kid, might have a difficult kid, someone with 4 kids might have 4 angels and have no issues.

On the flip side, some people find everything difficult. that's just who they are.

Our workplace has a lot of parents, but there's no distinction between parents and non parents - people need personal time /emergency time for a myiad of reasons and that's how it should be. I don't think I could work for a manager who discriminated against someone in favour of a parent.

Its comes down to fairness I think, regardless of the issue at hand.

One example is a place I worked years ago was open 364 days a years, from 9am to 1am. Come Xmas, the locals took care of the Xmas Eve and Stephens Day shifts and the folks from down the country took care of the New Years Eve/New Years Day shifts.

People can tolerate allowances and accommodations being made so long as nobody takes the piss, once that happens, the business loses good people

magicbastarder

magicbastarder wrote: »

i was bemused to see in a couple of colleagues, that when their first kid was born, for about the first six months their attitude was 'nothing is more important than my kid, the job comes second' (which is a perfectly healthy attitude in my book), but that fades into an 'oh ****, i've got to provide for this kid for the next couple of decades' and they went into overwork mode.

I think it’s the old saying of what did I do all day when I didn’t have kids?

Many work Parents I know seem to be highly organised and seem to achieve so much in the space of a day- I guess you just have to get on with things and be Uber organised.

paperflights

Like everyone else here I'm sure, my life has changed so much in the last year. I've gone from working in a busy office to working fully from home. Personally, it's reinforced how much I (and my partner) enjoy peace and quiet! It sounds stupid but I love waking up to a quiet house that's relatively tidy. I see colleagues on Zoom trying to juggle homeschooling/ constant kid interruptions and I just know that it isn't for me.

witchgirl26

I think the whole culture of "well I have it harder than you" leads to an awful lot of problems. I was back in work 6 weeks after maternity leave when the first lockdown happened so had an 8 month old at home while trying to work. It was really tough I won't lie. Same time my child-free best friend was home by herself and found it difficult in different ways to me. I appreciate that it's not like she had it all lovely & easy during the pandemic. And it's not like I had it sooo tough. She appreciated that it's not easy trying to work around naps etc with a small child & I appreciated that it could be extremely lonely being by herself to the extent she was.

We did both admit to each other that we were slightly jealous of each other in small ways - me that she had time to herself & could do the projects in her house that she wants & her that I had people with me at home so had someone to chat to not over the phone.

beauf

Your employer can insist you take parental leave in one block and that effectively blocks many from being able to take it. It may be statutory but it can be blocked. So it's really unpaid leave at the discretion of your employer. Taking a personal day or such.

Someone not doing their job properly or taking unpaid leave with no one to cover their work is really an issue of management.

Sparkey84

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Its comes down to fairness I think, regardless of the issue at hand.

One example is a place I worked years ago was open 364 days a years, from 9am to 1am. Come Xmas, the locals took care of the Xmas Eve and Stephens Day shifts and the folks from down the country took care of the New Years Eve/New Years Day shifts.

People can tolerate allowances and accommodations being made so long as nobody takes the piss, once that happens, the business loses good people

very good point, i think the work ethic and decency of a co worker is far more important than whether they are a parent or not. i know one guy that comes to mind, when you are dependent on his productivity you know you are in for a sh!te time, he regularly uses his kids as an excuse. if he was not a parent i do not believe this would change his productivity, it would only change his excuses.

Aleece2020

Effects wrote: »

Yeah, I think you really don't understand how hard it is for people to work from home while having to look after one/two/three little shíts.

That's the whole point of being childfree. We don't want to understand how hard that **** is.

magicbastarder

There are lots of things I don't want to experience, yet I will seek to understand. Just because you're child free, doesn't mean you don't care or understand how hard it is for others.