Dealer and BMW won't fix issue originally flagged under warranty.

Dazzy

There is an intermittent issue with the automatic fuel cap release on my car. The result is that the fuel cap won't open. I flagged this to the dealer at service time (Oct ish 2019). They said they reset it and to let them know if the issue came back.

Since then the issue has happened again but only intermittently. It's not a big deal as I very seldom need to put fuel in the car and I have done very little driving over the last year.

Fast forward to March this year. I bring the car in for a service and tell them they didn't fix the issue. At this point I am out of warranty so they won't cover the cost of the fix. They say they will request and goodwill fix from BMW and get back to me. I got a call a week later from the dealer and was told that BMW won't fix under goodwill. They gave me the number for BMW if I wanted to talk to them.

I rang BMW customer service and explained the situation. They said the decision not to give the goodwill fix was final and there is nothing else that can/will be done.

From research this is a known issue with this car.

In hindsight I should have brought it back earlier but I thougt as they were already aware of the problem and with the year we have had that they would fix it at next service.

Have to say I'm very disappointed with the outcome especially as I flagged this problem originally when under warranty. I've been brand loyal for a long time which also stings.

Is there any other avenue to try or should I just leave it at this point?

Whocare

That awful customer service from bmw

Seth Brundle

What is the car and how old is it?
What is the service history like?

Dazzy

Seth Brundle wrote: »

What is the car and how old is it?
What is the service history like?

It's a 2016 X5 X40E with a full BMW service history.

frozenfrozen

that's crazy that they won't fix it.

Is the issue the pin that goes into the flap is getting stuck engaged so you have to unlock and relock a few times to sort it? I had to fix that with silicone spray on an E63 6 series if that's any help to you

Dazzy

frozenfrozen wrote: »

that's crazy that they won't fix it.

Is the issue the pin that goes into the flap is getting stuck engaged so you have to unlock and relock a few times to sort it? I had to fix that with silicone spray on an E63 6 series if that's any help to you

It's a pressurised system. You press a button inside the car and wait for it to de-pressurise and then fuel door opens. The problem is that it does not de-pressurise fully so it won't open. The workaround it to use the manual pull cord in the boot.

Based on the research I've done it seems to be a faulty sensor.

ironclaw

Dazzy wrote: »

It's a pressurised system. You press a button inside the car and wait for it to de-pressurise and then fuel door opens.

That seems like overengineering to the extreme, even for the Germans.

bazz26

Did the dealer disclose the fact that the issue was first flagged back in 2019, to BMW? It's possible that the dealer thought the issue was resolved after the initial fix given you didn't come back to them with it happening again and never mentioned it to BMW. In saying that, it's poor form and short sightedness imo that BMW didn't at least offer a partial or token contribution towards the cost given the car's full dealer history and customer's loyalty to the brand. A contribution no matter how small could have resulted in a fair or satisfactory resolution for the OP which would go along way to help retain their loyalty to the brand.

If that's the final word from them then I'd be inclined to write a strong letter or email to both the dealer principal and BMW Ireland about how disappointed you are with the outcome and how this will influence your next car purchase. It might not change the outcome but I'd still let them know.

mickdw

Personally id send them solicitors letter.
Fault was flagged within warranty. Its not like they fitted a new part at that time, just did a reset. Fault has re appeared and is a very very common issue on the phev bmw happening very early in life on the 3 series phev when it appeared.
Gather as much info as possible on it to show that its a common issue and hit them with all that.
I personally believe that the dealer has an awful lot to do with goodwill. Id say your dealer could have got that covered under warranty without any problem if they were so inclined.
I bought a new audi years back - supplying dealer refused goodwill just out of warranty. Dealer in next county that id never dealt with got 70 percent off without any hassle at all.

Dazzy

bazz26 wrote: »

Did the dealer disclose the fact that the issue was first flagged back in 2019, to BMW? It's possible that the dealer thought the issue was resolved after the initial fix given you didn't come back to them with it happening again and never mentioned it to BMW. In saying that, it's poor form and short sightedness imo that BMW didn't at least offer a partial or token contribution towards the cost given the car's full dealer history and customer's loyalty to the brand. A contribution no matter how small could have resulted in a fair or satisfactory resolution for the OP which would go along way to help retain their loyalty to the brand.

If that's the final word from them then I'd be inclined to write a strong letter or email to both the dealer principal and BMW Ireland about how disappointed you are with the outcome and how this will influence your next car purchase. It might not change the outcome but I'd still let them know.

Good point about the dealer not mentioning the initial fix in 2019 to BMW. I have no way of knowing unless I call BMW again and ask. I may do that.

On the call with BMW today I did mention it but they were only interested in the outcome/decision of the goodwill request, not the substance of it.

User1998

ironclaw wrote: »

That seems like overengineering to the extreme, even for the Germans.

I think its the same in most phevs. Its because a lot of owners would go 6 months+ between fill ups

Toyotafanboi

mickdw wrote: »

Personally id send them solicitors letter.
Fault was flagged within warranty. Its not like they fitted a new part at that time, just did a reset.

Ah stop, a solicitors letter for a faulty fuel filler door on a 5 year old car? Good luck.

It's a tricky one for people, flagging something during a cars warranty period doesn't give you free reign to request things fixed for the duration of the cars life span, otherwise you just need to raise complaints about everything during the first 2 years and get free fixes forever.

Flagging something in the warranty period or having something repaired under warranty doesn't give you any added protection outside of the warranty period, particularly if we are counting in years, like we are here. It'd be different/ easier argued if there was a short period of time between either the initial repair and the next failure or between the expiry date of the warranty and the next failure, neither of which is the case here i think.

All that being said, on a premium bus like that, with a full main dealer history, it's a fairly measley not to make a goodwill gesture towards the owner IMO. At the same time, goodwill is discretionary so if they aren't willing to help you i suppose that'll help you to decide where to take your business in future.

I'd probably just get it fixed at my own cost, mark their cards and move on and consider myself lucky it doesn't need a gearbox or something.

mickdw

Toyotafanboi wrote: »

Ah stop, a solicitors letter for a faulty fuel filler door on a 5 year old car? Good luck.

It's a tricky one for people, flagging something during a cars warranty period doesn't give you free reign to request things fixed for the duration of the cars life span, otherwise you just need to raise complaints about everything during the first 2 years and get free fixes forever.

Flagging something in the warranty period or having something repaired under warranty doesn't give you any added protection outside of the warranty period, particularly if we are counting in years, like we are here. It'd be different/ easier argued if there was a short period of time between either the initial repair and the next failure or between the expiry date of the warranty and the next failure, neither of which is the case here i think.

All that being said, on a premium bus like that, with a full main dealer history, it's a fairly measley not to make a goodwill gesture towards the owner IMO. At the same time, goodwill is discretionary so if they aren't willing to help you i suppose that'll help you to decide where to take your business in future.

I'd probably just get it fixed at my own cost, mark their cards and move on and consider myself lucky it doesn't need a gearbox or something.

Ya its a faulty fuel filler door but perhaps more complex repair than on your typical car. It could be control electronics for all we know - after all they were giving trouble from 1 week old on the 330e when they came on the market so its not a case of wear and tear with these.
Bmw need to fix this. Its a known issue and they cannot be let to wash their hands of these kind of things.

Toyotafanboi

Agreed, it could literally be anything, we don't know.

I'd say there's better, less costly routes to success here than a solicitors letter. What are you even getting the solicitor to threaten them with?

the_pen_turner

i would point out that you already had this in for repair under warranty and that all repairs have to be permanant. 12months isnt permanant especially if its only been used a few times.

Toyotafanboi

You'll get a response from BMW along the lines of - it was repaired, nothing lasts forever, please **** off. Solicitors letter would be a pricey way to get yourself insulted IMO.

mickdw

Toyotafanboi wrote: »

Agreed, it could literally be anything, we don't know.

I'd say there's better, less costly routes to success here than a solicitors letter. What are you even getting the solicitor to threaten them with?

Id make the point re the previous repair.
I have a dealer interogate the ecu for records of the failure which may show intermittantly within the warranty period.
I compile anything i could find re the numerous failures reported online showing this is a failure thats occuring at any age, not a wear issue.
Solicitor might make the argument re sale of goods and not being of a quality expected for such an item.

Alun

User1998 wrote: »

I think its the same in most phevs. Its because a lot of owners would go 6 months+ between fill ups

Yes, have that system on my Kia Niro PHEV.

bmwfan

small claims court is great for this stuff as it falls under the sale of goods act pay for the repair lodge a case with the scc and you should get your money back
when you lodge the case highlight that the issue wasn't fixed under warranty it will cost €25 the court will send bmw ireland a letter they can accept the claim or fight it
the case will be handled in Dublin and pre covid I had a case with a 5 year old mac book pro and before i had my case I went into the court to watch the process the judge is very far and they had a mix of cases a few car ones
in the end dixons called me the day before my case and transferred what i had put the claim in for plus my €25 and asked me to withdraw the case

Gumbo

ironclaw wrote: »

That seems like overengineering to the extreme, even for the Germans.

It was the same on the i3 Rex.

Dazzy

Thanks for the replies and advice everyone. Looks like the only recourse is a legal one.

If I decide to go down that road I'll report back with the outcome.

Seth Brundle

How much would it be to fix?
I can't see a successful outcome to a legal action on a failed item eighteen months after it was last looked at and dealt with.
You might be better off just bringing it to a BMW specialist and paying them.

Dazzy

Seth Brundle wrote: »

How much would it be to fix?
I can't see a successful outcome to a legal action on a failed item eighteen months after it was last looked at and dealt with.
You might be better off just bringing it to a BMW specialist and paying them.

TBH I don't know what it would cost to fix and my concern is that it could be something other than the sensor. They already said they fixed it but didn't so that doesn't make me very confident.

It's the principle of it really. I've been brand loyal for a long time, we bought a new car from them in Jan and I asked for the issue to be fixed while it was under warranty.

I've asked the dealer if they told BMW that they tried to fix it under warranty and am waiting for a reply.

frozenfrozen

that's not good enough at all, could you start CCing a few higher up people on the emails until someone sees how crazy that situation is.

Hellrazer

I flagged this to the dealer at service time (Oct ish 2019). They said they reset it and to let them know if the issue came back.

Since then the issue has happened again but only intermittently. It's not a big deal as I very seldom need to put fuel in the car and I have done very little driving over the last year.

Fast forward to March this year. I bring the car in for a service and tell them they didn't fix the issue.

So theres 17 months between when they supposedly fixed it and you bringing it in for a service and saying it not fixed.

I have to play devils advocate here and go with the dealer and BMW on this.


How did they know it wasnt fixed if you didnt return when they asked you to?
Why didnt you return when you realised the first time that it wasnt fixed.

Its one of the reasons dealers get a bad rep - none of this is the dealers or BMWs fault.

mickdw

Hellrazer wrote: »

So theres 17 months between when they supposedly fixed it and you bringing it in for a service and saying it not fixed.

I have to play devils advocate here and go with the dealer and BMW on this.


How did they know it wasnt fixed if you didnt return when they asked you to?
Why didnt you return when you realised the first time that it wasnt fixed.

Its one of the reasons dealers get a bad rep - none of this is the dealers or BMWs fault.

Yes it is bmws fault. Its a known fault and they are ignoring this aspect. Warranty out or not its their problem and attempting to get out of it is shoddy in the extreme.

Hellrazer

mickdw wrote: »

Yes it is bmws fault. Its a known fault and they are ignoring this aspect. Warranty out or not its their problem and attempting to get out of it is shoddy in the extreme.

So this begs the question - how many years warranty do you think a car should have above and beyond what is written in the documentation whether its a know issue or not?

Personally and being at the dealers side of this and having this very issue going on at the minute with a different brand I dont think it should be covered.

In my case we did a repair 2.5 years ago and Ive a customer that said it wasnt fixed - flagged it with me 2 weeks ago. I even wrote on the job card which I pulled out of the basement that we needed to know if it wasnt fixed before the vehicle warranty expired.

How am I supposed to know it wasnt fixed? As far as Im aware the issue was fixed 2.5 years ago but "apparently " it wasnt.

Manufacturer dont want to know as they also assumed it was fixed 2.5 years ago.


See where Im going with this?

If we dont know then we cant fix it.


I had a lad in December tell me he had a "lifetime" warranty on his car - yep a lifetime warranty.

mickdw

Hellrazer wrote: »

So this begs the question - how many years warranty do you think a car should have above and beyond what is written in the documentation whether its a know issue or not?

Personally and being at the dealers side of this and having this very issue going on at the minute with a different brand I dont think it should be covered.

In my case we did a repair 2.5 years ago and Ive a customer that said it wasnt fixed - flagged it with me 2 weeks ago. I even wrote on the job card which I pulled out of the basement that we needed to know if it wasnt fixed before the vehicle warranty expired.

How am I supposed to know it wasnt fixed? As far as Im aware the issue was fixed 2.5 years ago but "apparently " it wasnt.

Manufacturer dont want to know as they also assumed it was fixed 2.5 years ago.


See where Im going with this?

If we dont know then we cant fix it.


I had a lad in December tell me he had a "lifetime" warranty on his car - yep a lifetime warranty.

Its a known fault. Known faults will be covered well beyond warranty in many cases, generally under goodwill.
What would you say if this car has multiple records of this malfunction stored onboard from within warranty period happening intermittantly showing that while it may appear to be working, it was not in fact fixed satisfactorily at all.
Known wear points or faulty design should be covered well beyong the warranty period. Legal pressure will gain a repair in such situations up to 6 years.
Ive argued against this point here in the past when someone was quoting sale of goods etc but ive sense found that in the right situation, 6 years can very easily be made stick - where the problem can be shown to be a common defect and not down to user wear and tear, its very much a runner.

pale rider

Was a loyal bmw 5 series driver, had three in a row, and wife had 5 Mini’s in a row ...issues as described topping out with a new timing chain on a one owner Mini petrol with 66kms paid at my cost thought me a lesson.

Have an E Class now ( my third ) and wife is in a CLA.( her second )

Get it fixed, have it serviced at an independent specialist from now on and stuff them whenever you change.

Goodwill flows two ways.

Theboinkmaster

bmwfan wrote: »

small claims court is great for this stuff as it falls under the sale of goods act pay for the repair lodge a case with the scc and you should get your money back
when you lodge the case highlight that the issue wasn't fixed under warranty it will cost €25 the court will send bmw ireland a letter they can accept the claim or fight it
the case will be handled in Dublin and pre covid I had a case with a 5 year old mac book pro and before i had my case I went into the court to watch the process the judge is very far and they had a mix of cases a few car ones
in the end dixons called me the day before my case and transferred what i had put the claim in for plus my €25 and asked me to withdraw the case

This is exactly what I would do. I’ve used small claims court loads and it’s the quickest and cheapest way to resolve these types of issues.

Can do it online, only takes 10mins

mickdw

Theboinkmaster wrote: »

This is exactly what I would do. I’ve used small claims court loads and it’s the quickest and cheapest way to resolve these types of issues.

Can do it online, only takes 10mins

Sounds like a sensible plan.
Looking again at the sale of good and services guidelines, claims can be submitted up to 6 years in ireland - a fault that is cosmetic would likely not be entertained however a fault that effects the actual use of the car should certainly be entertained.
Much of eu has only 2 year protection. Ireland has 6 year.

fryup

Theboinkmaster wrote: »

This is exactly what I would do. I’ve used small claims court loads and it’s the quickest and cheapest way to resolve these types of issues.

and do you have to actually go to court? or are most matters resolved out of court?

and are solicitors involved?

galwaytt

mickdw wrote: »

....Known wear points or faulty design should be covered well beyong the warranty period...

bless: you've obviously never had a Porsche. If the above were to hold water Porsche would have sunk under the weight of such claims years ago.

Back to OP, whilst timewise you're not going back didn't help the situation, then lack of use can be verified by the mileage, and I'd factor that into your conversation. Irrespective of time, if you've only done a very low mileage since the 'repair', then you should argue that it's continued non-functioning is clearly not 'wear & tear'.

My daughters car is in for a new injector atmo, using a main dealer the repair of that is warranted for 2 years.

ba_barabus

fryup wrote: »

and do you have to actually go to court?

It's a far more relaxed affair weighted in the consumers favour

fryup wrote: »

or are most matters resolved out of court?

Hard to know really but I'd expect they are as for the most part they're trivial matters of small expense and businesses tend not to want the judgements against them made.

fryup wrote: »

and are solicitors involved?

Nope.

TBH OP, I think you'd be far better off writing a letter to the dealer principal outlining the timeline and facts around this and what you want as a resolution. Worth including if you have been a return customer at that garage. Offer them 10 working days to reply with a amicable solution or "you'll consider the matter further".

Going in and threaten the small claims court or solicitors will cause them to only speak through solicitors etc. which won't help your case.

FWIW, assuming it's just a small cost to fix, I'd have expected the garage to have made some sort of gesture to keep you happy if you've been a repeat customer of theirs for a while. I know my local dealer (not BMW) has been great about goodwill well outside of any reasonable warranty period.

Dazzy

galwaytt wrote: »

Back to OP, whilst timewise you're not going back didn't help the situation, then lack of use can be verified by the mileage, and I'd factor that into your conversation. Irrespective of time, if you've only done a very low mileage since the 'repair', then you should argue that it's continued non-functioning is clearly not 'wear & tear'.

I just checked the mileage since the service that supposedly fixed the problem in Dec 2019 and I've done 9,000 KM since then.
I did mention this to the dealer that the car had not been used much since the "fix" but it made no difference.

Dazzy

I'm waiting to hear back from the dealer if they mentioned to BMW that they tried to fix the problem at a previous service. If they didn't then I will contact BMW again to see if that makes any difference.

comerla

Toyotafanboi wrote: »

Ah stop, a solicitors letter for a faulty fuel filler door on a 5 year old car? Good luck.

It's a tricky one for people, flagging something during a cars warranty period doesn't give you free reign to request things fixed for the duration of the cars life span, otherwise you just need to raise complaints about everything during the first 2 years and get free fixes forever.

Flagging something in the warranty period or having something repaired under warranty doesn't give you any added protection outside of the warranty period, particularly if we are counting in years, like we are here. It'd be different/ easier argued if there was a short period of time between either the initial repair and the next failure or between the expiry date of the warranty and the next failure, neither of which is the case here i think.

All that being said, on a premium bus like that, with a full main dealer history, it's a fairly measley not to make a goodwill gesture towards the owner IMO. At the same time, goodwill is discretionary so if they aren't willing to help you i suppose that'll help you to decide where to take your business in future.

I'd probably just get it fixed at my own cost, mark their cards and move on and consider myself lucky it doesn't need a gearbox or something.

Not sure if I agree with you here. I notified apple there was a problem with my phone within the warranty period which they ended up fixing outside of warranty (I.e. a new phone). I had to force the issue though - I only had grounds because I hade notified them in writing. On principle I would expect them to stand over their product if the problem arose during warranty period.

Fiery mutant

mickdw wrote: »

Sounds like a sensible plan.
Looking again at the sale of good and services guidelines, claims can be submitted up to 6 years in ireland - a fault that is cosmetic would likely not be entertained however a fault that effects the actual use of the car should certainly be entertained.
Much of eu has only 2 year protection. Ireland has 6 year.

Ireland doesn’t have 6 years ‘protection’. You have 6 years to submit a claim, but the longer that time goes on, the more the onus is on you to prove the fault is a manufacturing one.

Eireann81

Dazzy wrote: »

I just checked the mileage since the service that supposedly fixed the problem in Dec 2019 and I've done 9,000 KM since then.
I did mention this to the dealer that the car had not been used much since the "fix" but it made no difference.

9000KMs... Using BMWs own consumption figures, you should be able to work out roughly how many tanks of fuel you used since the fix, and therefore how many times you've opened the fuel flap. I'm guessing that the answer is going to be under 10 times.

mickdw

Fiery mutant wrote: »

Ireland doesn’t have 6 years ‘protection’. You have 6 years to submit a claim, but the longer that time goes on, the more the onus is on you to prove the fault is a manufacturing one.

Yes 6 years where manufacturers fault claim will be considered. Ive said since start of this that this is a common fault and if a claim can be backed with instances of this fault hsppening across much of the bmw range at all mileages and ages from 2 weeks old upwards, it would be a strong claim imo.

Stoolbend

While not returning to the dealer each time it happened , annoying as that may be it makes it much harder to argue. I find a good question in these cases is to ask if that is the expected life of the part? It makes it very hard for them. If they say yes then you have that against them. If they say no then they should fix it.

My mother had a dual mass flywheel fail on a 6 year old insignia with 60000km. Full dealer history and Opel Ireland wouldn't do anything. She asked the girl on the phone if she was telling her that 60000km was the life of the part and she was told they'd call her back. Opel covered all but €150 in the end.

Mac 3

I had an issue with a BMW years ago. My car had a warranty and it started to use oil. Problem was diagnosed and I later found out it was a manufacturing defect. BMW dealer, and BMW Ireland wanted nothing to do with me. Goodwill was refused.. "Wear and tear, trade it in for another one was the advice..."

Took it to a dealer in the North, they did the necessary tests and sent the results to Germany. The head office came back to say that it would be fixed by BMW and no cost to me .

I was close to going legal before I went to the North. Might be worth a shot.

Dazzy

Update. The BMW garage came back to me today to say that they didn't mention to BMW when looking for the goodwill that I had flagged the problem under warranty. They said they re submitted the goodwill this week with that extra info but BMW still wont cover under goodwill.

I asked for a quote to fix the the issue and it's going to cost almost €600.

So it looks like the best option is to get it fixed and then try the small claims court.