Returning from abroad - opportunity?

Hillmanhunter1

I've lived outside the EU for more than 10 years, but I'm returning soon, and I'm wondering if this presents any once-off opportunities and how can I maximize that opportunity.

Can I bring a car back to Ireland tax free? Where is the best place to buy, and how long must I keep it before I sell it on?

For example, let's say I bought a top-end car. A Rolls Royce Ghost costs something like Euro600,000 in Ireland, but close to half that in the UK.

User1998

You can but you can’t sell the car for a year after you get here, if the ‘opportunity’ you speak of is to cash in on it?

Hillmanhunter1

User1998 wrote: »

You can but you can’t sell the car for a year after you get here, if the ‘opportunity’ you speak of is to cash in on it?

That is precisely the opportunity of which I speak!

So after a year I could sell a car with zero miles. But I think it would have to be a joint venture between me and the buyer from the outset so that s/he gets the exact car that they want.

User1998

Look buying a brand new Rolls Royce sounds mad to me but I don’t know your financial situation

An interesting one would be buying the car in the UK with 0% VAT for export and then being exempt from paying VAT and VRT here. There would be massive savings if that was the case

Hillmanhunter1

User1998 wrote: »

Look buying a brand new Rolls Royce sounds mad to me but I don’t know your financial situation

An interesting one would be buying the car in the UK with 0% VAT for export and then being exempt from paying VAT and VRT here. There would be massive savings if that was the case

Buying a Rolls Royce would sound mad to me too - if it was for me, but making enough profit to buy a nice E-Class is a different proposition.

User1998

Anything in the highest VRT band would yield good results. No point importing a hybrid for example when the VRT is low anyway

Having to keep the keep for a year really doesn’t help tho. The car would loose thousands in depreciation

bazz26

As part of the VRT exemption you need to have owned the car outside the State for at least 6 months and you have to prove the car was "in use". i.e. it was insured, taxed, etc.

https://www.revenue.ie/en/importing-vehicles-duty-free-allowances/guide-to-vrt/reliefs-and-exemptions/index.aspx

I also cannot see any buyer going halves on a car and not being able to actually buy it off you for 12 months especially a buyer you don't know. 12 months depreciation will eat into any profit also.

ratracer

1) Would there be much demand for such a high end car in Ireland?

2) Would someone who wanted, and could afford, such a high end car really be the type of person to faff around for 18 months waiting for it, just to save cash?

(I'm not one of the above, just curious;))

Hillmanhunter1

ratracer wrote: »

1) Would there be much demand for such a high end car in Ireland?

2) Would someone who wanted, and could afford, such a high end car really be the type of person to faff around for 18 months waiting for it, just to save cash?

(I'm not one of the above, just curious;))

I don't know if anyone would be interested.

But lets do the math. So the cost to me of buying a Rolls Royce Ghost in the UK is no more than 300K. I buy it, insure it and garage it for 6 months, then I import it into Ireland and insure and garage it for 12 months.

If a buyer wants it s/he is getting an 18 month old car with zero miles. A new Ghost is 600,000 but depreciation will have taken a bite. Rollers depreciate slowly, by about 10% a year, so lets knock off 120,000. On paper the Roller is still worth 480,000, but it has cost me 300,000.

I'd like to get new Mercedes E 300 e 4MATIC Plug In Hybrid AMG Line out of the transaction. That's 70,000 ish.

So if I get 370,000 I'm happy. For 370,000 the buyer gets an 18 month old 600,000 Rolls Royce (or Ferrari, or Lambo, or whatever).

Del2005

Hillmanhunter1 wrote: »

I don't know if anyone would be interested.

But lets do the math. So the cost to me of buying a Rolls Royce Ghost in the UK is no more than 300K. I buy it, insure it and garage it for 6 months, then I import it into Ireland and insure and garage it for 12 months.

If a buyer wants it s/he is getting an 18 month old car with zero miles. A new Ghost is 600,000 but depreciation will have taken a bite. Rollers depreciate slowly, by about 10% a year, so lets knock off 120,000. On paper the Roller is still worth 480,000, but it has cost me 300,000.

I'd like to get new Mercedes E 300 e 4MATIC Plug In Hybrid AMG Line out of the transaction. That's 70,000 ish.

So if I get 370,000 I'm happy. For 370,000 the buyer gets an 18 month old 600,000 Rolls Royce (or Ferrari, or Lambo, or whatever).

You missed that you need to have used the car. Presenting a delivery mileage car for VRT will immediately make the own use exemption null. A 2nd hand will be harder to find out if you have used it or not.

The biggest issue is that no one legit will buy that type of car as a private sale, people will rarely even buy €20k cars privately. You'd even struggle to sell the Merc private

gizabeer

Never mind a Rolls , Buy a 911 gt3 or some variant of a special 911 and get someone like Lewis motors or Beshoffs to sell it for you .

gipi

I read in another thread on boards about someone who tried something similar - daughter bought a high-end car in UK, funded by parent in Ireland.

When it came time to bring the car in, revenue decided that daughter couldn't have afforded to buy the car on her UK salary, and didn't grant the vrt exemption.

SteM

Tbh, there's one area of Irish government that works pretty well and that's the revenue service.

kanuseeme

why bother with one, bring 2 in.

Hillmanhunter1

gipi wrote: »

I read in another thread on boards about someone who tried something similar - daughter bought a high-end car in UK, funded by parent in Ireland.

When it came time to bring the car in, revenue decided that daughter couldn't have afforded to buy the car on her UK salary, and didn't grant the vrt exemption.

Not a problem - I could buy the Roller for cash, legitimately and verifiably earned while living and working in the Middle East.

At the unwinding of the transaction I'll be buying a house

Hillmanhunter1

kanuseeme wrote: »

why bother with one, bring 2 in.

Well, now that you mention it, my Missus might do the same!

Hillmanhunter1

Del2005 wrote: »

You missed that you need to have used the car. Presenting a delivery mileage car for VRT will immediately make the own use exemption null. A 2nd hand will be harder to find out if you have used it or not.

The biggest issue is that no one legit will buy that type of car as a private sale, people will rarely even buy €20k cars privately. You'd even struggle to sell the Merc private

With a transaction of this size everyone will be well lawyered up. The Revenue will know that a Roller/Ferrari/Lambo is not the same as a Passat. They have an investment as well as a utilitarian value.

alias no.9

Is the transfer of residence VRT exemption not just an EU freedom of movement thing, won't apply moving from outside of the EU

alastair

Hillmanhunter1 wrote: »

With a transaction of this size everyone will be well lawyered up. The Revenue will know that a Roller/Ferrari/Lambo is not the same as a Passat. They have an investment as well as a utilitarian value.

That matters not a whit to Revenue. Trying to pass off an as-new car as one you’ve been using for six months isn’t going to wash with them - and they will have zero interest in who you’ve taken on as a legal adviser.

YellowLead

Del2005 wrote: »

You missed that you need to have used the car. Presenting a delivery mileage car for VRT will immediately make the own use exemption null. A 2nd hand will be harder to find out if you have used it or not.

The biggest issue is that no one legit will buy that type of car as a private sale, people will rarely even buy €20k cars privately. You'd even struggle to sell the Merc private

Yep - I kind of feel like if it was that easy everybody would be doing it....

alastair

alias no.9 wrote: »

Is the transfer of residence VRT exemption not just an EU freedom of movement thing, won't apply moving from outside of the EU

Nope - anywhere. But the requirement for the car to have been owned and used for six months applies, so this scheme is scuppered from the get-go.

YellowLead

Also this is sort of fraud you are admitting to contemplating here, pretty sure this is whole thread is against the ethos what can be encouraged on boards...:)

ARGINITE

Brought a car home from the UK a number of years ago and the amount of documentation that revenue require to get the VRT exemption is lengthy, I can't see how you would get a delivery mileage car past them as being in personal use for the last six months.

Hillmanhunter1

alastair wrote: »

That matters not a whit to Revenue. Trying to pass off an as-new car as one you’ve been using for six months isn’t going to wash with them - and they will have zero interest in who you’ve taken on as a legal adviser.

Firstly, nobody will be passing anything off - that would be dishonest.

High value vehicles simply do not have same mileage as other cars and they are very often stored for their investment value.

The Revenue are not unreasonable (unless they know they can get away with it). Unless legislation says that the car must have a specific mileage on it (and I don't know the answer to that question) then you're just dealing with administrative procedures - there's always leeway there - if you have a good lawyer.

Hillmanhunter1

YellowLead wrote: »

Also this is sort of fraud you are admitting to contemplating here, pretty sure this is whole thread is against the ethos what can be encouraged on boards...:)

I don't think it is fraud, and if it was I wouldn't do it.

I'm seeking to operate within the rules (but sailing as close to the wind as possible) to see if there is an opportunity to take advantage of this once-in-a-lifetime event.

Hillmanhunter1

ARGINITE wrote: »

Brought a car home from the UK a number of years ago and the amount of documentation that revenue require to get the VRT exemption is lengthy, I can't see how you would get a delivery mileage car past them as being in personal use for the last six months.

Civil servants love following precedent, and hate setting it.

I wouldn't think there is a lot of precedent in this space.

Buddy Bubs

I was in university in UK and was actually in a paid placement during it, bought a car, tried to get it registered in Ireland and it still wasnt enough for them, ended up having to pay VRT

Hillmanhunter1

Buddy Bubs wrote: »

I was in university in UK and was actually in a paid placement during it, bought a car, tried to get it registered in Ireland and it still wasnt enough for them, ended up having to pay VRT

Do you know why?

ratracer

I’m intrigued by this idea. I really hope it works out if you go ahead with it. Please keep us posted here as to how you proceed. It’s figures that wouldn’t be in my sphere for car buying, but as you say, it may be a once in a lifetime opportunity. Best of luck

Del2005

Hillmanhunter1 wrote: »

With a transaction of this size everyone will be well lawyered up. The Revenue will know that a Roller/Ferrari/Lambo is not the same as a Passat. They have an investment as well as a utilitarian value.

The exemption is to import your personal vehicle if you are returning to Ireland, not to import an investment

But say you get past revenue, how are you going to find someone willing to spend €370k on a private sale in 2 years time? Considering that only 2 Rollers have been sold this year you're aiming to sell to a tiny market and since you will be returning from the middle East it will be a LHD so even less buyers.

Then you have the risk that your buyer pulls out.

Del2005

Hillmanhunter1 wrote: »

Do you know why?

Students don't change residency if they move to a different country.

Hillmanhunter1

Del2005 wrote: »

The exemption is to import your personal vehicle if you are returning to Ireland, not to import an investment

But say you get past revenue, how are you going to find someone willing to spend €370k on a private sale in 2 years time? Considering that only 2 Rollers have been sold this year you're aiming to sell to a tiny market and since you will be returning from the middle East it will be a LHD so even less buyers.

Then you have the risk that your buyer pulls out.

There's no way that you could be looking for a buyer - that needs to be locked down, with contracts and escrow accounts etc. from day 1.

The person who will end up as the owner is the one who chooses the make, model, colour, extras, everything - I couldn't care less.

Hillmanhunter1

Del2005 wrote: »

Students don't change residency if they move to a different country.

But I have been resident (including tax resident) in the Middle East for 10 years. I own no property in Ireland.

Buddy Bubs

Hillmanhunter1 wrote: »

Do you know why?

Yes, wasn't working full time.

You are, but the system is designed to allow you bring back your own car without penalty. Not Rolls Royces to make a profit.

It's not going to happen for you in reality.
Delighted if you prove me wrong though

User1998

OP its clear that your absolutely loaded with cash. I’m not a financial advisor by any means but if you have so much money would you not just build a house over here and sell it or something? Surely there’s easier/more legitimate ways to make money than this scheme?

Marcusm

bazz26 wrote: »

As part of the VRT exemption you need to have owned the car outside the State for at least 6 months and you have to prove the car was "in use". i.e. it was insured, taxed, etc.

https://www.revenue.ie/en/importing-vehicles-duty-free-allowances/guide-to-vrt/reliefs-and-exemptions/index.aspx

I also cannot see any buyer going halves on a car and not being able to actually buy it off you for 12 months especially a buyer you don't know. 12 months depreciation will eat into any profit also.

It’ll be 18 months depreciation - 6 month before he moves back and 12 months after.

Marcusm

User1998 wrote: »

Look buying a brand new Rolls Royce sounds mad to me but I don’t know your financial situation

An interesting one would be buying the car in the UK with 0% VAT for export and then being exempt from paying VAT and VRT here. There would be massive savings if that was the case

Avoiding the U.K. VAT and Irish VRT will be difficult. U.K. VAT can only be 0% rated if it is exported within 6 months whereas VRT can only be exemption provided it has been normally used at least 6 months overseas.

Marcusm

Hillmanhunter1 wrote: »

I don't know if anyone would be interested.

But lets do the math. So the cost to me of buying a Rolls Royce Ghost in the UK is no more than 300K. I buy it, insure it and garage it for 6 months, then I import it into Ireland and insure and garage it for 12 months.

If a buyer wants it s/he is getting an 18 month old car with zero miles. A new Ghost is 600,000 but depreciation will have taken a bite. Rollers depreciate slowly, by about 10% a year, so lets knock off 120,000. On paper the Roller is still worth 480,000, but it has cost me 300,000.

I'd like to get new Mercedes E 300 e 4MATIC Plug In Hybrid AMG Line out of the transaction. That's 70,000 ish.

So if I get 370,000 I'm happy. For 370,000 the buyer gets an 18 month old 600,000 Rolls Royce (or Ferrari, or Lambo, or whatever).

You won’t be able to “garage” it for 6 months. There was a Tax Appeals Commission case on those facts and it was determined that by having it off road and not used meant the 6month test was not satisfied.

Marcusm

Hillmanhunter1 wrote: »

Not a problem - I could buy the Roller for cash, legitimately and verifiably earned while living and working in the Middle East.

At the unwinding of the transaction I'll be buying a house

You will have to provide evidence of using it in the Middle East for 6 months, not the U.K.

Marcusm

Buddy Bubs wrote: »

I was in university in UK and was actually in a paid placement during it, bought a car, tried to get it registered in Ireland and it still wasnt enough for them, ended up having to pay VRT

Residence as a student doesn’t count!

Vinnymcdonnell

Rolls Royce would be pointless, would need to be something special like a Porsche GT3, Lambo Performante or some sort of special Ferrari. These will sell much easier than any Rolls Royce.

Now to get away with it, you need to have owned the car for a minimum of 6 months and be able to prove use in that time. You are also not limited to one car, you can bring in two and say your wife could do the same. Need to be a tax resident in another country you are bringing the car from and not in Ireland
Ideally will own the car for nearer 12 months to bring less of a red flag against you

pah

If you plan on buying in the uk you have to prove your residency there also over the past number of years

Hillmanhunter1

Marcusm wrote: »

You won’t be able to “garage” it for 6 months. There was a Tax Appeals Commission case on those facts and it was determined that by having it off road and not used meant the 6month test was not satisfied.

Do you by any chance have a link to that determination?

Hillmanhunter1

pah wrote: »

If you plan on buying in the uk you have to prove your residency there also over the past number of years

I don't see that anywhere. I may need to prove that I did not live in Ireland but I can't find a rule or determination that the car that I import must have been maintained by me in the country of my tax domicile.

thefisherbuy

similar ish question sorry op but do you have to be in the country for a certain amount of years before you can pass for an exemption is it a year? moving to the uk soon so i know a bit although i wouldnt be buying a RR hah looking for a work car and it is alot cheaper in the uk then ireland.From looking up the revenue look for everything to say you actually where abroad(which should be good for you), and im nearly sure you have to prove you used the car such as fuel, tax insurance etc.

Marcusm

Hillmanhunter1 wrote: »

Do you by any chance have a link to that determination?

https://www.taxappeals.ie/_fileupload/Determinations/2019/43TACD2019.pdf


Here’s one which should cover both points. The applicant worked and lived in Europe but bought a car which was left in the U.K. until 6 months had elapsed.

As you will see, relief was denied. The law is in si 59 of 1993. The car must be personal property used by you outside the state and not be related to any “commercial interest” (which would cover your intended circumstances where you expect top resell the Roller).

There are a number of similar decisions but I couldn’t be arsed looking for more!

You should buy a Hillman Hunter or even better an Avenger with a vinyl roof.

mickdw

If you do it right you could work the exemption.
Is it possible to have a right hand drive car registered in your country?
I believe the likes of rolls royce will sell a right drive car to you into any market that will allow it be registered there. Im sure there is a cost as it goes through their bespoke division. If cars are as expensive as ireland in your country, obviously this plan wont work.
If that did work out, you could drive your roller for 6 months putting up some small miles on it then import it will all required proofs of ownership etc. Future owners would likely have issue with a roller imported from far away country even if it was a euro spec car ordered.

The other option is to set up a presence in the uk, - a genuine business and a residential address and buy the car in the uk and keep it taxed and insured there. You would need proof of business activity, also personal bank accounts etc, everything to show you lived in uk.
Quite difficult to achieve and not at all possible on anything under 100k. At the level you are talking, it would pay to set up home in uk for 6 months.
Overall id say its worth investigating further but the idea of the zero mile car is a complete non runner.

One other consideration if talking special car - such a car would have limited market here and even if you had a buyer lined up, they would like to have the future option of selling it off to uk to broaden market. Your car if registered under exemption would have no vrt rebate available so would not be viable to sell to uk in future unless at a loss so that would be a major consideration to anyone buying a specialist car here.

newmember2

For this moving to Ireland with car exemption, does it include a VAT exemption i.e. can the vehicle have less than 6000KM?

Hillmanhunter1

Marcusm wrote: »

https://www.taxappeals.ie/_fileupload/Determinations/2019/43TACD2019.pdf


Here’s one which should cover both points. The applicant worked and lived in Europe but bought a car which was left in the U.K. until 6 months had elapsed.

As you will see, relief was denied. The law is in si 59 of 1993. The car must be personal property used by you outside the state and not be related to any “commercial interest” (which would cover your intended circumstances where you expect top resell the Roller).

There are a number of similar decisions but I couldn’t be arsed looking for more!

You should buy a Hillman Hunter or even better an Avenger with a vinyl roof.

Thanks for this post - I appreciate you sharing your knowledge.

(As for the moniker, it might have been a dreadful car, but it was the first car that I ever drove).

Del2005

Hillmanhunter1 wrote: »

There's no way that you could be looking for a buyer - that needs to be locked down, with contracts and escrow accounts etc. from day 1.

The person who will end up as the owner is the one who chooses the make, model, colour, extras, everything - I couldn't care less.

Have you done any research into potential buyers or are you just trolling? Is the last 5 years there have been 2 Rolls Royce sold new in this country!

How will you find this wealthy person who wants a 2nd hand Rolls Royce in 2 years time and is willing to pay for it now? Anyone who can afford to spend that much money on a car isn't going to go to the hassle of getting a 2nd one in 2 years with no warranty or consumer protection. Especially when they can get a 2nd hand
or buy a new one right now with a warranty and consumer protection from a dealer.



My other response was to the poster asking why the person who was a student didn't qualify for the exemption.

Hillmanhunter1

Del2005 wrote: »

Have you done any research into potential buyers or are you just trolling? Is the last 5 years there have been 2 Rolls Royce sold new in this country!

How will you find this wealthy person who wants a 2nd hand Rolls Royce in 2 years time and is willing to pay for it now? Anyone who can afford to spend that much money on a car isn't going to go to the hassle of getting a 2nd one in 2 years with no warranty or consumer protection. Especially when they can get a 2nd hand
or buy a new one right now with a warranty and consumer protection from a dealer.



My other response was to the poster asking why the person who was a student didn't qualify for the exemption.

I don't have a buyer lined up, and I'm just wondering out loud really.

I looked up the statistics on the SIMI website. I reckon you'd have to be looking at at E250k to make the proposition worthwhile.

Over the past 5 years there's 15-20 cars that are obviously in that territory - mostly Bentleys. There's also a couple of hundred Porsches. A top spec 911 will approach that value. So I would guess that the market is very very small!