UFC 260

mailburner

Deleted User wrote: »

Lewis to win the title would show just how weak the HW division is right now. Came across some nonsense the last few weeks about Stipe being super-top level and possibly in the GOAT discussion. Nonsense.

Who's been better though, a better all rounder?

I can't think of anyone.

I thing Ngannou will do well to match Stipe also.

Lewis on the other hand appears to be a lot better now that he's taking it
more seriously and also has a higher percentage of ko wins than ngannou.
He'll stand and trade with with francis too if it happens and it's a match up
that could go anyway if it works out that way.

mailburner

ASOT wrote: »

Derek Lewis beats Francis for the title after Jon prices himself out.

you could be right
I wouldn't like to call that one.

I think JJ prices himself out too, dana will just say fcuk it and give it to Lewis.

Brussels Sprout

The thing about heavyweight, and especially when it comes to title fights at HW, is that most of the fighters punch so hard that they can K.O. people at a far greater rate than at the lower divisions. This adds a huge level of variance to the fights since there is a very real possibility that the person fighting the better fight can get knocked out at any time. Obviously that risk applies to all fights in all divisions, but it's greater at HW. That's the main reason why no UFC champion has successfully defended the belt at HW more than 3 times. It also makes Fedor's streak of wins from 2001-2009 all the more impressive.

yourdeadwright

Eoinbmw wrote: »

A healthy Cain Velasquez would be the Greatest in my opinion but he was not healthy for long enough to be the greatest!
A lot of talk about Randy Couture i think Miocic beats him every time!
Call me a fanboy but a trained Lesnar would have been an absolute monster!
Hard to argue with Miocic after all he beat Reem, Junior, Arlovski, Werdum and Cormier to name but a few!

Cain was healthy against JDS, Werdum and Francis
And they all sparked him,

Randy is a legend no question but he also lost lots of fights aginst decent opponents, I think Stipe beats him soundly

Eoinbmw

yourdeadwright wrote: »

Cain was healthy against JDS, Werdum and Francis
And they all sparked him,

Randy is a legend no question but he also lost lots of fights against decent opponents, I think Stipe beats him soundly

Im pretty sure he had a torn meniscus and re injured rotator cuff going into the fight with Junior?
He had two knee surgeries before facing Werdum and i dont think he was every the same after!

Zero-Cool

Stipe is my favourite HW but my god Francis is a scary human being. Disappointed Stipe lost but happy out for Francis. Dunno why but O'Malley is hugely unlikeable.

Esse85

Smaller cage definitely favoured Francis more.

mailburner

I hope Luque gets a top five guy after that.

He rarely gets talked about and 18 of his 20wins have now been finishes

Whether he can make the step up and compete with the likes of burns or colby I have my doubts but there's nobody tougher than him in the ufc

Big Ears

mailburner wrote: »

Who's been better though, a better all rounder?

I can't think of anyone.

I thing Ngannou will do well to match Stipe also.

Lewis on the other hand appears to be a lot better now that he's taking it
more seriously and also has a higher percentage of ko wins than ngannou.
He'll stand and trade with with francis too if it happens and it's a match up
that could go anyway if it works out that way.

While technically true that Lewis has a higher ko percentage it's a little disingenuous.
Francis has stopped all 16 of his opponents in his victories but subbed 4 of them and ko'ed 12.
Lewis has ko'ed 20 of 25, but has 1 submission and gone the distance 4 times.
Both it incredibly hard, but ignore the stats, NGannou is the bigger puncher and probably has the better chin.

While Lewis could knock out any heavyweight, I think the rematch is tough for him. Francis looks to have learned how to fight patient and knows the pace at which he can fight without gassing. I doubt he'll fight like that first Lewis fight again.
If they both start trading bombs away, Lewis has a chance, but Francis is the bigger puncher and has the better chin, he'd have to be a solid favourite.

I like that leg kick of NGannou's btw, could be a real weapon against a guy like Lewis who's feet aren't the quickest !

Mellor

yourdeadwright wrote: »

Cain was healthy against JDS, Werdum and Francis
And they all sparked him,

JDS caught him with a lucky shot. It happens, esp at HW.
Very hard to argue that JDS was more skilled given the 10 rounds between them that followed.

Werdum subbed him after a 3 year layout to injury. I don't think that's the version the poster was talking about

He blew his knee vrs Francis in a freak injury. I think that the perfect example of Cain's banjax'd body. He his later years were plagued by it.

yourdeadwright

Mellor wrote: »

JDS caught him with a lucky shot. It happens, esp at HW.
Very hard to argue that JDS was more skilled given the 10 rounds between them that followed.

Werdum subbed him after a 3 year layout to injury. I don't think that's the version the poster was talking about

He blew his knee vrs Francis in a freak injury. I think that the perfect example of Cain's banjax'd body. He his later years were plagued by it.

There was nothing lucky about it , he tried to strike with him and got Ko'd
Changed up slightly for the next two fights and won ,


He fought Werdum 20 months after JDS that less than 2 years ,
I think the excuse at the time was sea level Cain


He did blew his knee but wasn't that because he was dropping down and took a almighty shot from Francis that put him over his knee ? Not sure if I remember that correctly

smilerf

Thought Stipe looked to lean and I don't know he only looked like he got up outta the bed

Mellor

yourdeadwright wrote: »

There was nothing lucky about it , he tried to strike with him and got Ko'd
Changed up slightly for the next two fights and won

There was more striking in the first round of the second one than the first.

JDS threw 4 standing strikes in the first match.
And 18 standing strikes in r1 of the rematch.

Knock outs are always a risk at HW. But to get one in the first few strikes requires the skill abd a bit of luck. That night started the myth of JDS’s boxing. He was hugely overrated for the subsequent fights.

He fought Werdum 20 months after JDS that less than 2 years ,
I think the excuse at the time was sea level Cain

It was originally 12 months after the fight. But Cain pulled out late with torn meniscus and MCL that require surgery. So had that maybe 6 months or so before the Werdum fight. That’s not long enough imo. Would have been a few months before he could train and cardio would have gone to crap. Which would have been detrimental going to Mexico City. (As much as Sea Level Cain is a meme.) But at the same time Werdum is also an elite submission fighter. May well have caught a peak Cain.

He did blew his knee but wasn't that because he was dropping down and took a almighty shot from Francis that put him over his knee ? Not sure if I remember that correctly

He level changed for a single and the knee went.
Wasn’t clear if he dropped from the punches because the knee was gone. Or if it went because he was punched and he dropped.

He’s been plagued by injuries regardless imo.

yourdeadwright

Mellor wrote: »

There was more striking in the first round of the second one than the first.

JDS threw 4 standing strikes in the first match.
And 18 standing strikes in r1 of the rematch.

Knock outs are always a risk at HW. But to get one in the first few strikes requires the skill abd a bit of luck. That night started the myth of JDS’s boxing. He was hugely overrated for the subsequent fights.


It was originally 12 months after the fight. But Cain pulled out late with torn meniscus and MCL that require surgery. So had that maybe 6 months or so before the Werdum fight. That’s not long enough imo. Would have been a few months before he could train and cardio would have gone to crap. Which would have been detrimental going to Mexico City. (As much as Sea Level Cain is a meme.) But at the same time Werdum is also an elite submission fighter. May well have caught a peak Cain.


He level changed for a single and the knee went.
Wasn’t clear if he dropped from the punches because the knee was gone. Or if it went because he was punched and he dropped.

He’s been plagued by injuries regardless imo.

So an excuse for every Cain lose

JDS 2 Cain made sure JDS was backed up against the cage from the first second, in the first one he was happy to fight in the center of the octagon, So different approach

why say 3 years when its less than 2? To make the excuse sound better?

Part of being a fighter is being able to cope with the rigors of the sport,

For me Cain isnt the GOAT of heavyweights

Obviously just my opinion,

The Nal

JDS' 9 wins in a row in the UFC put him right up there. Beat some killers too.

Mellor

yourdeadwright wrote: »

So an excuse for every Cain lose

The previous point was if Cain stayed healthy, he’d have been goat. The injury history and the like are obviously relevant to that.
Excuses? No. Just the reality of what happened.

why say 3 years when its less than 2? To make the excuse sound better?

He’s injury lay-offs started before than. Had surgery more than once. May have been over more than 3 years.

Everyone remotely in the Goat contention at HW has lost more than once. Bent never stayed still for the big boys.

yourdeadwright

Mellor wrote: »

The previous point was if Cain stayed healthy, he’d have been goat. The injury history and the like are obviously relevant to that.
Excuses? No. Just the reality of what happened.

He’s injury lay-offs started before than. Had surgery more than once. May have been over more than 3 years.

Everyone remotely in the Goat contention at HW has lost more than once. Bent never stayed still for the big boys.

It was 20 months between fighting JDS 3 and Werdum .


Before that 20 month break he had 5 fights in just under 2 years ,


Not sure where your getting your 3 years from

yourdeadwright

The Nal wrote: »

JDS' 9 wins in a row in the UFC put him right up there. Beat some killers too.

Correct plus in that 9 fight run he beat Cain once


In a 13 fights he won 11 and lost 2 (both to Cain) , list of names in that time is unreal
Cain
Miocic
Hunt
Mir
Carwin
Nelson
Gonazga
Cro Cop
Struve
Werdum


Has also beat Lewis and Rothwell since that run ,

Mellor

yourdeadwright wrote: »

It was 20 months between fighting JDS 3 and Werdum .


Before that 20 month break he had 5 fights in just under 2 years ,


Not sure where your getting your 3 years from

Not sure which part of it you aren’t understand.
He was plagued with imo for years. Multiple injuries. Surgery’s etc. Couldn’t possibly describing those years as healthy.

ASOT

Really enjoyed Woodley Luque, Luques English is class so there's alot of star power potential after that win.

yourdeadwright

Mellor wrote: »

Not sure which part of it you aren’t understand.
He was plagued with imo for years. Multiple injuries. Surgery’s etc. Couldn’t possibly describing those years as healthy.

You said "Werdum subbed him after a 3 year layout to injury"


He fought JDS 20 months before that & won ,
He fought Bigfoot 5 months before that & won
he fought JDS 5 months before that & won
He fought Bigfoot 6 months before that & won




But when he loses to Werdum it because of a 3 year layout with injury .


It's a made up EXCUSE

Mellor

yourdeadwright wrote: »

Correct plus in that 9 fight run he beat Cain once


In a 13 fights he won 11 and lost 2 (both to Cain) , list of names in that time is unreal
Cain
Miocic
Hunt
Mir
Carwin
Nelson
Gonazga
Cro Cop
Struve
Werdum


Has also beat Lewis and Rothwell since that run ,

He’s beat come great fighters. And had a great run. Not trying to take away from it.
But I find it off you exclude Cain for his 3 losses. But not JDS for his 9. (Inc the Cain destruction)

Stipe, Francis, DC, Fedor, Werdum all have a couple losses. The HW belt is cursed

yourdeadwright

Mellor wrote: »

He’s beat come great fighters. And had a great run. Not trying to take away from it.
But I find it off you exclude Cain for his 3 losses. But not JDS for his 9. (Inc the Cain destruction)

Stipe, Francis, DC, Fedor, Werdum all have a couple losses. The HW belt is cursed

I never mentioned anything about JDS losses because I was just agreeing with someone on that great run of wins,


I find it odd people would have Cain in the GOAT conversation but not JDS


As you mentioned its very very hard for a heavy weight not to loss , a small fraction of a mistake and its lights out,

Honestly I think the best way to look at heavy weights is the wins on there record rather than how many loses ,

Starlord_01

smilerf wrote: »

Thought Stipe looked to lean and I don't know he only looked like he got up outta the bed

Thought this too - 13 pounds down on the first time they fought.

The Nal

Ngannou made weight by 2lbs

yourdeadwright

Starlord_01 wrote: »

Thought this too - 13 pounds down on the first time they fought.

He decided to drop weight after the first DC fight,
Himself and his team reckon he was as strong or stronger but moved better,


It worked against DC but I don't think it was the right move for facing Francis

MrStuffins

Mellor wrote: »

JDS caught him with a lucky shot.

This term makes me wince!

Normally used as an excuse or as part of a bias towards the fighter who lost.

He threw an overhand right, it hit Cain in the head as intended. It knocked him out.

If that's a "lucky punch" then 95% of KOs are lucky punches as well.

Mellor

yourdeadwright wrote: »

I find it odd people would have Cain in the GOAT conversation but not JDS

JDS has lost too much to be goat imo, and when he has lost he's lost badly.
That's not to say he's not a top HW and one of the best. Just not the best, or top 3 for me.

After the Cain KO. He was a huge favourite in the rematch. He was maybe undervalued originally, but people over-correct perceptions. Touting Roganisms like "best boxing in HW history".
I imagine that's common in rematches generally.

MrStuffins wrote: »

This term makes me wince!

Normally used as an excuse or as part of a bias towards the fighter who lost.

He threw an overhand right, it hit Cain in the head as intended. It knocked him out.

If that's a "lucky punch" then 95% of KOs are lucky punches as well.

It's an expression. Of course it doesn't negate the fact they tried to land a punch. Call it randomness falling their way if you prefer. Knocking somebody out sometime involves a but luck. They could land the exact same punch and not get a KO, through no fault of their own. Surprised this make makes you "wince".

To look at it another way, a fighter can land a one hit KO without being the better fighter. Whereas, it's very hard to dominate somebody over multiple rounds, multiple 10-8s, etc. Without being the better fighter. I assume most would agree with that.
Both fighters were better on the night. But only the latter requires one to be fundamentally better overall.

As an example. Matt Serra's TKO'd GSP. He wasn't better than GSP. That win doesn't elevate him to WW Goat conversation.

vafankillar

one problem with ngannou seems to be the lack of possible competition that would bring in big draws.

stipe might want/get a trilogy, jones might fight him.

other than those two & dereck lewis, there really isn't many people for him to fight

Rjd2

vafankillar wrote: »

one problem with ngannou seems to be the lack of possible competition that would bring in big draws.

stipe might want/get a trilogy, jones might fight him.

other than those two & dereck lewis, there really isn't many people for him to fight

Volkov? Maybe GAne in a year or two?

Starlord_01

vafankillar wrote: »

one problem with ngannou seems to be the lack of possible competition that would bring in big draws.

stipe might want/get a trilogy, jones might fight him.

other than those two & dereck lewis, there really isn't many people for him to fight

Asking to be cut again https://www.mmafighting.com/2021/3/29/22356823/jon-jones-sends-clear-message-to-ufc-please-just-cut-me-already-just-f-cking-let-me-go

DrPhilG

Starlord_01 wrote: »

Asking to be cut again https://www.mmafighting.com/2021/3/29/22356823/jon-jones-sends-clear-message-to-ufc-please-just-cut-me-already-just-f-cking-let-me-go

yourdeadwright

Mellor wrote: »

JDS has lost too much to be goat imo, and when he has lost he's lost badly.
That's not to say he's not a top HW and one of the best. Just not the best, or top 3 for me.

After the Cain KO. He was a huge favourite in the rematch. He was maybe undervalued originally, but people over-correct perceptions. Touting Roganisms like "best boxing in HW history".
I imagine that's common in rematches generally.


It's an expression. Of course it doesn't negate the fact they tried to land a punch. Call it randomness falling their way if you prefer. Knocking somebody out sometime involves a but luck. They could land the exact same punch and not get a KO, through no fault of their own. Surprised this make makes you "wince".

To look at it another way, a fighter can land a one hit KO without being the better fighter. Whereas, it's very hard to dominate somebody over multiple rounds, multiple 10-8s, etc. Without being the better fighter. I assume most would agree with that.
Both fighters were better on the night. But only the latter requires one to be fundamentally better overall.

As an example. Matt Serra's TKO'd GSP. He wasn't better than GSP. That win doesn't elevate him to WW Goat conversation.

JDS lost 4 on the bounce at the end but he was well finished at that stage
In his prime Overeem is the only fight to beat him that JDS doesn't also hold a win over,


Cain list of named wins is far less impressive than JDS's


Cain : JDS , Bigfoot ,Lesnar , Big Nog ,Rothwell , Kongo


JDS : Cain, Miocic ,Lewis, Rothwell ,Hunt,Mir, Werdum ,Cro cop , Carwin,Nelson ,Gonzaga ,Struve

The Nal

Mellor wrote: »

JDS has lost too much to be goat imo, and when he has lost he's lost badly.
That's not to say he's not a top HW and one of the best. Just not the best, or top 3 for me.

All HWs lose and lose badly. Thats why its so exciting. Theres a huge difference between pre and post USADA though. JDS suffered badly post USADA like a lot of Brazilians.

MrStuffins

Mellor wrote: »

It's an expression.

Surprised this make makes you "wince".

Yes, it's an expression that, in most cases, is designed to take away the credit from the victor whilst simultaneously make excuses for the loser.

It makes me wince because it's an excuse normally reserved for barstool crumb-bums.

To look at it another way, a fighter can land a one hit KO without being the better fighter.
As an example. Matt Serra's TKO'd GSP. He wasn't better than GSP. That win doesn't elevate him to WW Goat conversation.

One fighter being better than the other does not make it a "lucky punch".

Bisping got dominated by Rockhold in their first fight but then KO'd him in the second. Rockhold at that point was the "better" fighter, but Bisping's punch was not "lucky". He threw it as he intended and it did the intended job.

Homelander

And New

It's a fair point. I mean look at Derek Lewis or even Francis himself in the majority of his career.

Most people they faced are better fighters, far better rounded with more expansive skill-sets. But that insane one-punch KO power is ever present - there's no luck in it, it's them playing to their incredible strengths and waiting for that narrow window they can work in.

Sometimes at the 11th hour. Wasn't it against Volkov where Lewis got dominated and then knocked him out in the last seconds of the last round. People can argue that was a freak KO or fluke, but when talking about someone like Lewis, that's unfair.

Of course I agree that a one-hit KO can be luck or a fluke, but it's neither of those things when talking about people who have made careers out of doing it repeatedly.

I would love to see Lewis v Ngannou again at some point. The first match was one of the biggest let downs of all time, Lewis was bad but Ngannou did almost literally nothing all 3 rounds. I remember Joe Rogan saying there should be some way to make them both losers on the judges decision.

yourdeadwright

Homelander wrote: »

It's a fair point. I mean look at Derek Lewis or even Francis himself in the majority of his career.

Most people they faced are better fighters, far better rounded with more expansive skill-sets. But that insane one-punch KO power is ever present - there's no luck in it, it's them playing to their incredible strengths and waiting for that narrow window they can work in.

Sometimes at the 11th hour. Wasn't it against Volkov where Lewis got dominated and then knocked him out in the last seconds of the last round. People can argue that was a freak KO or fluke, but when talking about someone like Lewis, that's unfair.

Of course I agree that a one-hit KO can be luck or a fluke, but it's neither of those things when talking about people who have made careers out of doing it repeatedly.

I would love to see Lewis v Ngannou again at some point. The first match was one of the biggest let downs of all time, Lewis was bad but Ngannou did almost literally nothing all 3 rounds. I remember Joe Rogan saying there should be some way to make them both losers on the judges decision.

Was the worst UFC fight in years,
When the ref lifted Lewis's hand he pulled it back down in disgust ,
Not often you get the winner embarrassed to have his hand raised,


Basically they met in the octagon but a fight did not take place,

The Nal

yourdeadwright wrote: »

Was the worst UFC fight in years,
When the ref lifted Lewis's hand he pulled it back down in disgust ,
Not often you get the winner embarrassed to have his hand raised,


Basically they met in the octagon but a fight did not take place,

Jesus I forgot about that. The ref had to tell them both to engage. Crazy. Seems like a long time ago now. Ngannou was finished after that remember!

yourdeadwright

The Nal wrote: »

Jesus I forgot about that. The ref had to tell them both to engage. Crazy. Seems like a long time ago now. Ngannou was finished after that remember!

I always remember mid fight Rogan said we may never see the Francis that knocked guys out again, ………….Next fight he got back to starching lads,


Francis said he was way to concerned with getting tired after the Stipe fight and didn't want to force anything but Lewis wasn't going to lead either so they both just stood there, Francis also said he thought it was 5 rounds

Mellor

MrStuffins wrote: »

Bisping got dominated by Rockhold in their first fight but then KO'd him in the second. Rockhold at that point was the "better" fighter, but Bisping's punch was not "lucky". He threw it as he intended and it did the intended job.

So you think Bisping was the Goat MW at that point because of the win? Or was it just his night? Because that was a discussion.
You seem a fixated on the world lucky, but aren’t really explaining winning on the night translates to being the goat.

MrStuffins

Mellor wrote: »

So you think Bisping was the Goat MW at that point because of the win? Or was it just his night? Because that was a discussion.
You seem a fixated on the world lucky, but aren’t really explaining winning on the night translates to being the goat.

Your conversation about the GOAT was with another poster.

I was talking about your use of the term "lucky punch". You know that because you went into detail in your previous posts and used examples.

Alf Veedersane

vafankillar wrote: »

one problem with ngannou seems to be the lack of possible competition that would bring in big draws.

stipe might want/get a trilogy, jones might fight him.

other than those two & dereck lewis, there really isn't many people for him to fight

People will still pay - for a while anyway - to watch Ngannou in the hope he sparks the opponent early.

Figel Narage

Pretty hard to watch as a Stipe fan and after their first fight I thought Ngannou was honestly exposed as all hype and felt it was confirmed when he fought Lewis. I got slightly worried when he beat Blaydes so easily as I would rate him quite highly and just got worse as he beat more and more guys and although it was subtle, he was showing signs of very slight improvements.

I thought Stipe would retire before they fought again for his own sake and his reactions in the fight seemed to show how concerned he was when he failed the take down and started to feel his power again. But nonetheless, still happy for Ngannou, UFC must be very happy with the result as Stipe didn't get a long with Dana from the looks and was not nearly as marketable as Ngannou will be.

I think a trilogy is a waste of time and I'm struggling to think of anyone who can challenge him at the moment (maybe Lewis) but theres some good heavyweights just beginning their ufc careers so who knows how dominant he'll be.

The Nal

Watched the fight again. The right/left that started the finish, wow. The left shot was lightning.

Mr. CooL ICE

vafankillar wrote: »

there really isn't many people for him to fight

There's always Tai Tuivasa!

mailburner

Rjd2 wrote: »

Volkov? Maybe GAne in a year or two?

I think volkov could beat just about anybody but Francis but I could be wrong.
I'd fancy volk to beat stipe also as long as he could keep it standing.

Gane is the dark horse though, very elusive and could be ngannou's biggest test should ngannou remain unbeaten in a year from now

volkov gane a match to make possibly

mailburner

The Nal wrote: »

Jesus I forgot about that. The ref had to tell them both to engage. Crazy. Seems like a long time ago now. Ngannou was finished after that remember!

The worst hw fight in history (or any div) and we'll be still saying that in 10 years time

Think I heard rogan say ngannou threw something like 11 strikes in that one

mailburner

Homelander wrote: »

Sometimes at the 11th hour. Wasn't it against Volkov where Lewis got dominated and then knocked him out in the last seconds of the last round. People can argue that was a freak KO or fluke, but when talking about someone like Lewis, that's unfair.

Of course I agree that a one-hit KO can be luck or a fluke, but it's neither of those things when talking about people who have made careers out of doing it repeatedly.

I would love to see Lewis v Ngannou again at some point. The first match was one of the biggest let downs of all time, Lewis was bad but Ngannou did almost literally nothing all 3 rounds. I remember Joe Rogan saying there should be some way to make them both losers on the judges decision.

I hate seeing this happen where a fighter dominates and the other lands a punch with seconds to go especially when it guaranteed a one trick pony like Lewis a title shot v dc and we all knew what the chances of him beating dc were... slim to none and maybe volkov might have put up a better show.

It does look like lewis is taking it more seriously now so should at least not be embarrassed if he gets another shot (i hope)

yourdeadwright

mailburner wrote: »

I hate seeing this happen where a fighter dominates and the other lands a punch with seconds to go especially when it guaranteed a one trick pony like Lewis a title shot v dc and we all knew what the chances of him beating dc were... slim to none and maybe volkov might have put up a better show.

It does look like lewis is taking it more seriously now so should at least not be embarrassed if he gets another shot (i hope)

Didn't Lewis have really bad injury issues going into the DC fight,
if I recall he said he couldn't afford not to go ahead and fight DC because of the finical side of things ,

yourdeadwright

Does anyone think if Stipe gained weight and was the same size as the first fight a 3rd fight could go differently ?
Its hard to see any other outcome after watching Franic's improve so much ,

I wonder what Stipe does now ,