Plane noise in Portmarnock?

brio09

hi! my wife and I started seeing houses in portmarnock (and other areas) recently, but we are still kinda new to Ireland and with covid, we haven't explored most neighborhoods and have been to portmarnock only once.
We got to know about skylark phase 4 coming up for sale in the coming week and were wondering if folks have advice on plane noise in portmarnock?
i am concerned about it because noise pollution like living next to rail tracks etc. has been shown to reduce quality of life even including education scores. i'd like to live in a house where i am not concerned about plane noises every few mins/hrs if i open the windows.
It seems planes fly right overhead portmarnock?
how often do they fly?
I'm guessing every house would feel the noise from every plane if you keep a window open?

Inquitus

brio09 wrote: »

hi! my wife and I started seeing houses in portmarnock (and other areas) recently, but we are still kinda new to Ireland and with covid, we haven't explored most neighborhoods and have been to portmarnock only once.
We got to know about skylark phase 4 coming up for sale in the coming week and were wondering if folks have advice on plane noise in portmarnock?
i am concerned about it because noise pollution like living next to rail tracks etc. has been shown to reduce quality of life even including education scores. i'd like to live in a house where i am not concerned about plane noises every few mins/hrs if i open the windows.
It seems planes fly right overhead portmarnock?
how often do they fly?
I'm guessing every house would feel the noise from every plane if you keep a window open?

My in-laws live in Portmarnock, and my wife used to live there, she says the planes never bothered her and tbh I rarely, if ever, notice them when visiting

blue note

I'm up by the dunnes and the noise is very faint from the planes. When I used to commute the noise at the train station was a lot louder.

Whenever they build a second runway though the noise could get bad. And it's badly needed, so they will build it at some stage.

catrionanic

I live in Malahide and we looked at houses in Portmarnock. The plane noise is pretty bad in many parts, especially around the train station where many of the new houses are being built. At the minute the flight volume is way down due to covid, but in normal times there'd be a flight every two minutes.

brio09

blue note wrote: »

I'm up by the dunnes and the noise is very faint from the planes. When I used to commute the noise at the train station was a lot louder.

Whenever they build a second runway though the noise could get bad. And it's badly needed, so they will build it at some stage.

when you say Dunnes, do you mean this one?
> Dunnes Stores Shopping Centre, Wendell Ave, Carrickhill, Portmarnock, Co. Dublin
it is almost malahide area, so trying to confirm my understanding of plane path.

blue note

brio09 wrote: »

when you say Dunnes, do you mean this one?
> Dunnes Stores Shopping Centre, Wendell Ave, Carrickhill, Portmarnock, Co. Dublin
it is almost malahide area, so trying to confirm my understanding of plane path.

Yes. It's very much portmarnock but on the malahide side of it. I think a few houses and the golf club are technically malahide, but in reality they're Portmarnock too.

Inquitus

It's quieter as you enter Portmanock from Malahide and louder as you get down towards the station end. My inlaws live in the former location.

PCros

blue note wrote: »

Yes. It's very much portmarnock but on the malahide side of it. I think a few houses and the golf club are technically malahide, but in reality they're Portmarnock too.

This is where the new northern runway's approach path will fly over. However the northern runway will faciltate more departing traffic as opposed to approaching traffic.

It will be finished this summer and operational next year.

blue note

PCros wrote: »

This is where the new northern runway's approach path will fly over. However the northern runway will faciltate more departing traffic as opposed to approaching traffic.

It will be finished this summer and operational next year.

Exactly. Do don't buy there and then give out when the planes start flying overhead and you can hear them.

It's the planes taking off that are much louder though. Those engines are roaring. The ones coming in are much quieter. Also, there's lots of research being done now to make planes quieter. Hopefully we'll benefit from it soon.

The Davestator

I live in Swords all my life and I don't notice any noise and I'm closer to the airport. You just get used to it, like living close to a busy road I expect.

brio09

The Davestator wrote: »

I live in Swords all my life and I don't notice any noise and I'm closer to the airport. You just get used to it, like living close to a busy road I expect.

thank you for the perspective. the way i was thinking is when buying a forever home, i would like to be able to able to stay away from road noise, so from what you say, it makes me think i should also apply a similar approach to plane noise.

Dizzyblonde

The Davestator wrote: »

I live in Swords all my life and I don't notice any noise and I'm closer to the airport. You just get used to it, like living close to a busy road I expect.

Me too. When they used to service the planes at the airport we'd hear them testing the engines a lot but it never bothered us or anyone I know who lived here.

Even now when it's very windy and they use the north/south runway the noise doesn't bother us.

brio09

Dizzyblonde wrote: »

Even now when it's very windy and they use the north/south runway the noise doesn't bother us.

interesting - what is the connection of being windy? I'm guessing when it is more windy, that increases the ambient noise which makes it less likely to hear the runway / plane noises?

Dizzyblonde

Crosswinds at the airport. If they're very strong from the wrong direction they use the old runway rather than the east/west one.

Otherwise we never hear plane noise. We do have the R116 rescue helicopter going over us a few times a day but it's never been a problem, in fact the grandkids run outside to see it when they're here

chinguetti

I live besides the dart station in Portmarnock and on the flight path and have done in pre Covid times too. After a couple of weeks, you get used to the planes over head and you carry all normal. If you're sitting ourside in mid chat, you stop talking as the plane goes overhead and then carry on when they're gone.

I know some people go mad over the noise and wouldn't buy in the area but I never got that idea. If it suits you to buy in Skylark, don't be put off by the planes. Most new houses round here have triple glazed windows so you never hear them indoors. Ditto to the trains.

brio09

chinguetti wrote: »

I live besides the dart station in Portmarnock and on the flight path and have done in pre Covid times too. After a couple of weeks, you get used to the planes over head and you carry all normal. If you're sitting ourside in mid chat, you stop talking as the plane goes overhead and then carry on when they're gone.

I know some people go mad over the noise and wouldn't buy in the area but I never got that idea. If it suits you to buy in Skylark, don't be put off by the planes. Most new houses round here have triple glazed windows so you never hear them indoors. Ditto to the trains.

thanks for sharing your experience!

beertons

I remember playing a rugby match out near the airport, years ago, with college. Scored a cracker of a try, but was disallowed as the ref had blown for a foul. Everyone had stopped, but myself. Never dawned on me why I wasn't tackled.

House Hunt

Dun Sí houses were built with triple glazed windows, Skylark is double glazed and the provider was changed to Munster Joinery. There is a thread on them in the Cork City forum at the moment with very poor reviews and elsewhere on trustpilot etc. There were issues with the windows cracking in Dun Sí so a change of provider wasn’t surprising but the change to double glazed feels like a cost saving exercise more than anything, hopefully they are sufficiently sound proof with the flight path in mind.

Muahahaha

Ive a cousin who rents in Portmarnock with his partner. Hes said you get used to the noise but theyve knocked Portmarnock off their list of places to buy because of concerns about air quality. His partner has asthma and they think its not such a great idea to live the next several decades of their lives under a flight path with planes every 3 minutes at peak times. Theyve the same concerns if they have kids and they too have asthma. Theyre a bit despondent about it because other than that they love living in Portmarnock.

I can’t find the diagram now but approx 70% of take offs are done westwards over the lesser populated north west Dublin due to the prominence of southwesterly winds. Planes both take off and land into the wind. So while portmarnock is on the flight path is is primarily when they are coming in to land so not as loud but noticeable all the same.

https://www.dublinairport.com/docs/default-source/airport-noise/contour-map.pdf?sfvrsn=922e304d_2

Plane engines are getting quieter as new generations are made too.

0lddog

See attached for prevailing wind approach for most planes into DUB ( there is a nav aid at Maynetown ).
Its the takeoffs and not the landings that make the noise

iamwhoiam

brio09 wrote: »

thank you for the perspective. the way i was thinking is when buying a forever home, i would like to be able to able to stay away from road noise, so from what you say, it makes me think i should also apply a similar approach to plane noise.

I lived for 4 years right across the road from a fire station . The bell would go off , doors slam open and then shouting and roaring and engines revving
After a few months we got used to it and hardly heard it .. Visitors would be astonished we weren’t bothered !

VW 1

I've lived all my life in santry/finglas and worked both in and beside the airport a lot of my adult life. Certainly used to it at this point, never exactly loud but can hear from inside the house. About as annoying as hearing a car or bus drive up the road.

brio09

VW 1 wrote: »

I've lived all my life in santry/finglas and worked both in and beside the airport a lot of my adult life. Certainly used to it at this point, never exactly loud but can hear from inside the house. About as annoying as hearing a car or bus drive up the road.

ah thats a very valuable comparison - thank you!

House Hunt

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-04-01/ryanair-set-to-start-flying-modified-737-max-after-u-s-signoff?srnd=premium-europe

Ryanair have order over 200 of these, and they are 40% quieter than the current 737

brio09

Wanted to share my decision although it may not match what many of you have decided
In my criteria to find a house to buy, one of my top criteria was that it should not be on a busy street since the road noise and spikes in noise when ambulance etc. go by reduces the quality of life. I reviewed flight paths of planes to-fro Dublin airport and realized that the planes are very close to the ground over portmarnock and lower swords. so it provides a similar experience as road noise.
so i decided to deprioritize these neighborhoods in my search for house.
some links i came across -
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/446311/noise-aircraft-noise-effects-on-health.pdf
https://ec.europa.eu/environment/integration/research/newsalert/pdf/how_does_living_with_aircraft_noise_affect_wellbeing_uk_airports_462na3_en.pdf

Inquitus

brio09 wrote: »

Wanted to share my decision although it may not match what many of you have decided
In my criteria to find a house to buy, one of my top criteria was that it should not be on a busy street since the road noise and spikes in noise when ambulance etc. go by reduces the quality of life. I reviewed flight paths of planes to-fro Dublin airport and realized that the planes are very close to the ground over portmarnock and lower swords. so it provides a similar experience as road noise.
so i decided to deprioritize these neighborhoods in my search for house.
some links i came across -
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/446311/noise-aircraft-noise-effects-on-health.pdf
https://ec.europa.eu/environment/integration/research/newsalert/pdf/how_does_living_with_aircraft_noise_affect_wellbeing_uk_airports_462na3_en.pdf

Yep, you'll still be looking for your ideal home in 2035, good luck with it! Avg house prices will be even worse by then.

tscul32

On the fingal County Council planning pages you can view the airport noise boundaries - inner noise zone, outer noise zone, etc.

Grew up in Portmarnock and now live in Swords and the planes have never bothered me. In fact my mother was only recently saying that she actually misses them with the covid drop in flights.

standardg60

Inquitus wrote: »

Yep, you'll still be looking for your ideal home in 2035, good luck with it! Avg house prices will be even worse by then.

Agree, you're way overthinking this OP, as others have said you soon learn to live with and ignore an initially annoying sound.
Have you ever visited someone with a loud ticking clock and wondered how they manage to live with it? They don't even hear it.

The Davestator

Fingal Coco just published a noise map on their Facebook page which should help the OP.

Dizzyblonde

Map with noise contours here:


https://fingalcoco.maps.arcgis.com/apps/webappviewer/index.html?id=b76e92a4e4e64740b283e05f6fee1eb0

PCros

The Davestator wrote: »

Fingal Coco just published a noise map on their Facebook page which should help the OP.

Unfortunately that noise map will be redundant shortly when the new runway is operational.

The DAA published this one which includes the flight paths and also noise map including estimated decibels. They also compare now and with the new runway.

https://www.dublinairport.com/docs/default-source/north-runway-downloads/consultation-on-flight-paths-and-change-to-permitted-operations.pdf?sfvrsn=63261c6e_2

brio09

wow, these noise maps are amazing! thank you

House Hunt

What's the verdict on the impact of the 2nd runway on Skylark development?

PCros

House Hunt wrote: »

What's the verdict on the impact of the 2nd runway on Skylark development?

Honestly, if you grew up in parts of Swords or Portmarnock where you can hear planes it would have little impac. However, if you have never lived near an airport it could irritate you but I'm guessing you would get used to it.

Here is a pretty cool photo of Dublin and you can clearly see the new runway and its path.

it.https://twitter.com/astro_soichi/status/1379448614477520897?s=21

Handy tool released by Dublin Airport, you can monitor the Db level at the listening points. I had a look at Oscar Papa on the Portmarnock coast road while a Airbus A21n twin engine came in. The Db level went from about 45-60 Db to 70Db for a second or two and then mid 60 for a few more seconds until it settled back down to ambient noise levels.



https://www.dublinairport.com/corporate/corporate-social-responsibility/noise/webtrak-flight-monitoring-system

PCros

That's a very useful tool indeed.

Are they standalone monitors just placed in those areas I wonder? Also I wonder do the monitors mimic the settings of a house with doors and windows closed?

Edit - 777 came in and it went to 75Db on the coast road.

JustAThought

brio09 wrote: »

thanks for sharing your experience!

I lived inna double glazed well built appartment with the train tracks running the other side of the large carpark, high wall, road and shrubbery . It absolutely melted my head - particularly at night. In the end I had to move. Thou I’d specifically asked the estate agent the freight trains ran throughout the night ( he lied) and often would also beep at the double crossing - and I mean OFTEN each night. It totally melted my head.

Some places in P. are MUCH worse than others - even the ‘new’ houses that you’d expect better from and that cost close to a million. Drimnuigh Woods being a personal particular horror story for that reason. AND you also have the ding-dong noise from the dart platform echoing across your home and the platfrom announcements - you couldn’t make it up.

I’d be extremely wary of train and plane noise - particularly in Portmarnock. It’s a hidden curse - and with the new runway hosting planes so large they’ve NO past incidation of noise impact as they couldn’t land on the old
runway AND the lockdown you have no way of experiencing how noisy it is going to get.

Houses and whole communities in St Margarets are being deemed unfit for human habitation because of the projected new noise - and many of them alteady have double and triple glazing. Of course you can’t insulate a garden, or live without ever opening a window or wanting to sit in your garden or triple glaze cavity brick walls etc. Yhe teaidents there have been complaining and protesting for decades as the plane capacity and sizes got greater and the noise got worse and worse. The whole area was ‘recently’ quietly designated a strategic infrastructure zone so normal planning permission dosn’t apply - and whole streets and businesses are being CPO’d or planned to be abandoned by their owners - after generations living there. Its a national scandal what os going on to the community there and of course RTe will never run an anti- government story in it or feature the real scandal and absolute heartbreak and misery those people face. Anyway - thats not Portmarnock but close enough as the crow flies. Portmarnock residents have been battling against it for decades.

I’d be extremely wary. And you can’t check now - its a sellers delight - the noise levels bear no resemblence to pre lockdown levels and the new runway hsn’t started its capacity yet.

Isn’t the airport working at minus 90% capacity and planes flying next to empty in?

Colonel Claptrap

There's a world of difference between Portmarnock and St. Margaret's.

JimmyVik

Ive lived on busy roads, right on top of train tracks and near an airport.
In every case Ive noticed the noise for a week and then never noticed it ever again.
The human brain filters out repeating noises.
People just dont hear them anymore.

JimmyVik

PCros wrote: »

That's a very useful tool indeed.

Are they standalone monitors just placed in those areas I wonder? Also I wonder do the monitors mimic the settings of a house with doors and windows closed?

Edit - 777 came in and it went to 75Db on the coast road.

No, they are just the sound outside, like if you were standing in a field.

JustAThought

Colonel Claptrap wrote: »

There's a world of difference between Portmarnock and St. Margaret's.

I’m WELL aware of that. The horrifying noise issues for the 2nd runway that the homeowners in St M’s are facing was the point - for decades with old runway parts of Portmarnock already has a bad flight noise problem. If houses and businesses and farms are being forcibly CPO’d by the government and houses being condemned as unfit for habitation due to PROJECTED new noise pollution how badly will this affect the already semi visible and shrugged off areas in Portmarnock that are already suffering badly.

And thats before the new extension on the old 11pm noise ban kicks in. After the covid reatrictions lift. Things are going to be more noisy and more messy in unimaginable ways. And thats before Dublin becomes the new overnight flight hub to avoid post Britexit customs landing issues. Even more mess and even more noise. And far bigger planes with a new route & runway to worry about. Personally, I’m worried.

plodder

JustAThought wrote: »

I’m WELL aware of that. The horrifying noise issues for the 2nd runway that the homeowners in St M’s are facing was the point - for decades with old runway parts of Portmarnock already has a bad flight noise problem. If houses and businesses and farms are being forcibly CPO’d by the government and houses being condemned as unfit for habitation due to PROJECTED new noise pollution how badly will this affect the already semi visible and shrugged off areas in Portmarnock that are already suffering badly.

And thats before the new extension on the old 11pm noise ban kicks in. After the covid reatrictions lift. Things are going to be more noisy and more messy in unimaginable ways. And thats before Dublin becomes the new overnight flight hub to avoid post Britexit customs landing issues. Even more mess and even more noise. And far bigger planes with a new route & runway to worry about. Personally, I’m worried.

What houses and businesses and farms are being forcibly CPO'd? And what houses are being condemned as unfit for habitation, and by whom?

arccosh

lived under RWY 34 approach, and under the standard arrival route for 28 and departure for 10....

I love aviation, so was great for me. Moved to the UK to the middle of nowhere, couldn't put my finger on it for months why I felt unsettled in possibly one of the most chill places I've ever lived..

It was the lack of background noise... living in Dublin near busy roads and under flight paths...

You get used to it.... or in my case, I subconsciously missed it

blue note

blue note wrote: »

Whenever they build a second runway though the noise could get bad. And it's badly needed, so they will build it at some stage.

You mean the second (third actually) that’s been under construction for the past two years or so? :pac:

JimmyVik

arccosh wrote: »

lived under RWY 34 approach, and under the standard arrival route for 28 and departure for 10....

I love aviation, so was great for me. Moved to the UK to the middle of nowhere, couldn't put my finger on it for months why I felt unsettled in possibly one of the most chill places I've ever lived..

It was the lack of background noise... living in Dublin near busy roads and under flight paths...

You get used to it.... or in my case, I subconsciously missed it

In your case you were going from backround noise to no noise.
The brain has to process that in the exact same as going somewhere with a different noise than what you are used to.
You needed time to get used to it, but you got used to it.
What most people dont realize is that any noise you hear that is new to you will just fade away so you dont notice it at all anymore.

blue note

Jeremy Beagle wrote: »

You mean the second (third actually) that’s been under construction for the past two years or so? :pac:

Ah, not really. The two at the moment are really just one. You only ever have one in use, the second is just for when the wind is in an unusual direction.

The new runway being built will actually be a second runway.

JimmyVik

blue note wrote: »

Ah, not really. The two at the moment are really just one. You only ever have one in use, the second is just for when the wind is in an unusual direction.

The new runway being built will actually be a second runway.

That short north/south runway hardly ever has landings or takeoffs.
I think the wind has to be very strong and directly from the south for it to be used. And then as soon as the wind changes its back to the other runway.

plodder

JimmyVik wrote: »

That short north/south runway hardly ever has landings or takeoffs.
I think the wind has to be very strong and directly from the south for it to be used. And then as soon as the wind changes its back to the other runway.

I live under that one (16 arriving from north direction). It's used a fair bit, as strong southerly winds are not that unusual and the main runway(s) are quite significantly offset from the prevailing wind direction.

lawred2

brio09 wrote: »

hi! my wife and I started seeing houses in portmarnock (and other areas) recently, but we are still kinda new to Ireland and with covid, we haven't explored most neighborhoods and have been to portmarnock only once.
We got to know about skylark phase 4 coming up for sale in the coming week and were wondering if folks have advice on plane noise in portmarnock?
i am concerned about it because noise pollution like living next to rail tracks etc. has been shown to reduce quality of life even including education scores. i'd like to live in a house where i am not concerned about plane noises every few mins/hrs if i open the windows.
It seems planes fly right overhead portmarnock?
how often do they fly?
I'm guessing every house would feel the noise from every plane if you keep a window open?

Modern houses - you'll never hear them

JustAThought

lawred2 wrote: »

Modern houses - you'll never hear them

Absolutely not true.