Department of Health built secret dossiers on children with autism

spaceHopper

https://www.rte.ie/news/investigations-unit/2021/0324/1205962-department-of-health-dossiers-children-autism/

This beggars belief that they think this is OK.

Family take high court action to force Government to provide care for Autistic children. Get some care so pause the case.

Government builds a cross department detailed dossier on child and family so that they can use it against the family should they restart the case. Using medical and psychiatric profile to pick best time to approach them to settle the case, aka when they are under the most personal pressure throw them a bone.

I read the article this morning. Shocking stuff.

techdiver

They do love putting as much resources into "burying" families with such issues as opposed to helping them. Disgraceful stuff!

Always the case with special needs or mental health in Ireland. Lip service and no more. Look at the length people have to go to to secure school places for children with ASD in this country! It's a joke.

BanditLuke

Despicable but not surprising tbh when you look at how successive governments have treated children/families and especially those with be it mental or physical disabilities

Treppen

Wow that's a new low.

Scraping all that data unknowingly is scumbag behaviour.

Things like this really undermine the patient client trust, you think you are talking to a psychiatrist in private but then they could be potentially sharing everything you say to be used against you in a court!!! WOW!!!

In one instance, evidence suggests that a detailed report was sent to the department following a psychiatric consultation with a child.

Department just shrug their shoulders... naa nothing wrong with that we do it all the time, so what?

However, in a statement, the Department of Health said the information sharing discovered by RTÉ Investigates with respect to the special education needs proceedings was "normal practice" in circumstances where different State bodies shared information when they were involved in litigation together.

It said it had commissioned an expert senior counsel to review the practice and that nothing arising from that review caused it to change its approach.

The department said that, under data protection legislation, it was entitled to share and store information for the purposes of getting legal advice or to defend court proceedings.

even taking a kid's school report !!!

...as a teacher , I am being told nearly every day to be careful with our data, and we can't do x or y because of GDPR (and rightly so sometimes)... meanwhile the people wagging their fingers are poaching documents from us while our backs are turned. The documents that are supposed to be in the interests of promoting the child's education is being used against the same child in legal cases.

suicide_circus

So what do we think the consequences will be for the staff in the DOH and the HSE who engaged in this behaviour?

James Brown

suicide_circus wrote: »

So what do we think the consequences will be for the staff in the DOH and the HSE who engaged in this behaviour?

Would it not be more who authorised it and/or gave the instruction to do so?

suicide_circus

James Brown wrote: »

Would it not be more who authorised it and/or gave the instruction to do so?

Yes them too

from that article:

The person who made the protected disclosure has been reminded about his conduct and his duty as a civil servant to respect confidential matters.

So I guess the whistleblower can expect to have a bogus child abuse case opened against them now :rolleyes:

suicide_circus

Snitches get stitched up

rafatoni

spaceHopper wrote: »

https://www.rte.ie/news/investigations-unit/2021/0324/1205962-department-of-health-dossiers-children-autism/

This beggars belief that they think this is OK.

Family take high court action to force Government to provide care for Autistic children. Get some care so pause the case.

Government builds a cross department detailed dossier on child and family so that they can use it against the family should they restart the case. Using medical and psychiatric profile to pick best time to approach them to settle the case, aka when they are under the most personal pressure throw them a bone.

Oh Dear, disgusting behaviour but is it any surprise this is done on Fine Gael and Fianna Fails watch. They are as low as a snake belly that lot.

spaceHopper

It's not just that they spied on vulnerable children but they also collected information related to any legal case on their parents, brothers and sisters. Much of which would be outside the scope of any case they would have to defen.

I'd love to know what barristers told them this was OK and legal. I notice it wasn't the AG.

If they've done this what else have they done?

This is also very chilling

In a statement to RTÉ Investigates, the department said that, whenever a civil servant discloses information without authorisation, both that person and the party that receives it could be guilty of an offence under the Official Secrets Act.

The person who made the protected disclosure has been reminded about his conduct and his duty as a civil servant to respect confidential matters.

For Forks Sake

rafatoni wrote: »

Oh Dear, disgusting behaviour but is it any surprise this is done on Fine Gael and Fianna Fails watch. They are as low as a snake belly that lot.

It's civil servants at work.

The information was shared and gathered with the goal of aiding the Department of Health with a background legal strategy, such as in determining when it would be a good time to approach parents to settle or withdraw their case.

blanch152

Aegir wrote: »

from that article:



So I guess the whistleblower can expect to have a bogus child abuse case opened against them now :rolleyes:

That is probably the most concerning issue in the case. A whistleblower should not be punished for whistleblowing. The difficulty for him would be if he shared some of the personal information about individuals with journalists. Sharing a policy document or a document with personal information blacked out would be fine, but a whistleblower may not be exempt from GDPR reprecussions. Was the warning appropriate in such circumstances. Did someone say to him, go ahead and whistleblow if you want, but be careful about sharing personal information. If so, no issue, if not, what exactly was said?


On the main issue, this is a difficult one. One the one hand, legal action has been taken against the State, and the State should have the right to gather all relevant information for its defence of the action. There is a duty to protect the taxpayer. On the other hand, doctor/patient confidentiality is sacrosant, and if there are any examples of where the State interfered with this, there should be consequences for those that authorised that.

Where it gets murky is in the realm of the State using the information it gathered legitimately to put pressure at opportune points on the plaintiff. Is that a case of the State acting legitimately in defence of a court case, or is it bad practice. I haven't seen enough information to understand that.

I know that the sensible examination of this that I have outlined won't go far with the mob that believes FF/FG/State wrong and everyone else right, but the details we have so far are not sufficient to make a judgement call.

Ministers change every couple of years, Mandarins don't.

James Brown

We know they were wrong to collect and retain the information.

I suppose we could argue they 'meant well' or what is 'confidential' really? But they still did what they did.
I'd like the people who orchestrated it held to account.

The Black Oil

The grubbiness of the apparatus of the Irish State never fails to surprise me. Defensive, protect the institution at all costs.

spaceHopper

James Brown wrote: »

We know they were wrong to collect and retain the information.

I suppose we could argue they 'meant well' or what is 'confidential' really? But they still did what they did.
I'd like the people who orchestrated it held to account.

They over reached they collected information on the whole family. If I took a case against the state they could ask for medical reports that are relevant but in this case they just took all the records, not reports.

FromADistance

suicide_circus wrote: »

So what do we think the consequences will be for the staff in the DOH and the HSE who engaged in this behaviour?

A promotion.

TheValeyard

Definitely going to be watching this later on tonight.

Treppen

TheValeyard wrote: »

Definitely going to be watching this later on tonight.

Interesting RTE decided to visit all the whistleblowers cases in a special this week! Coincidence?

The Black Oil

Whistleblower certainly stuck his neck out.

My name is URL

blanch152 wrote: »

I know that the sensible examination of this that I have outlined won't go far with the mob that believes FF/FG/State wrong and everyone else right

You are a lot less sincere than you believe you are appearing to be, and I doubt anyone still buys it

This needs a crowd funded case against the department of health to get to the bottom of this.

Calhoun

The Black Oil wrote: »

The grubbiness of the apparatus of the Irish State never fails to surprise me. Defensive, protect the institution at all costs.

This is the same institution who dragged allot of dying Irish women through the courts, with the same exec who seems to be using covid19 as a way to rehabilitate his public image.

Cards on the table my daughter is on the ASD spectrum and i have had to deal with the organization quite a bit.

Nothing in the article today or the program surprised me, the whole organization is about self preservation rather than serving their clients.

My daughter entered the early development program (Spraoi) when she was two she did not get seen until just before she was 5 and by that stage they moved her onto the school age team. The assessment of need that really is the lynchpin of your childs diagnosis and has legally binding they did not complete and lied to us about it.

They literally have gate keepers who your only way of dealing with is through legal process or you get no where.

To further illustrate the disdain of the organization to its clients, all of the psychologist and staff to help children have been moved to covid 19 testing and injection work. What ever little service they had is on hold while vulnerable children regress.

Mam of 4

It's honestly sickening imo , absolutely disgraceful.
When you think of how hard it is for parents , having to battle and fight to get the much needed , proper services for their children , often taking years , and this is what's going on behind the scenes without their knowledge or consent? Sickening.

spaceHopper

The Black Oil wrote: »

Whistleblower certainly stuck his neck out.

Give what we have all seen happened to McCabe and the other Guarda whistle blowers he has huge balls fair play to him.

If I was one of those families I'd be making a data access request for the records and I'd start at the bottom and work my way up, Dr you broke Dr patient rules please appear before the medical council....

ShineOn7

spaceHopper wrote: »

Government builds a cross department detailed dossier on child and family so that they can use it against the family should they restart the case. Using medical and psychiatric profile to pick best time to approach them to settle the case, aka when they are under the most personal pressure throw them a bone.

That would be enough for a big head to roll in any other nation

In Ireland; it'll just be another Friday

I've said it many times in the last 12 months: there's something genuinely wrong with this country

bridest

What kind of snakes do we live among!?

ujjjjjjjjj

I can only but admire the courage of this whistle blower.

Literally lost for words, doctor / patient confidentiality is a cornerstone of medical practice. For the Department of Health (yes the irony of it all) to seek to put pressure on doctors and medical professionals to break this cornerstone and it seems they succeded in gaining information in some cases is staggering.

This is quite simply totally unacceptable.

Any doctors who passed information without patient consent should be struck off and heads need to role in the Department of Health. This was not just an errant civil servant but a practice in the Department.

No doubt days of smoke and mirrors coming up......

OscarMIlde

spaceHopper wrote: »

https://www.rte.ie/news/investigations-unit/2021/0324/1205962-department-of-health-dossiers-children-autism/

This beggars belief that they think this is OK.

Family take high court action to force Government to provide care for Autistic children. Get some care so pause the case.

Government builds a cross department detailed dossier on child and family so that they can use it against the family should they restart the case. Using medical and psychiatric profile to pick best time to approach them to settle the case, aka when they are under the most personal pressure throw them a bone.

Not the least bit surprised considering my family's experience.

spaceHopper

What other secret files have been collated by the various departments and governments. I strongly suspect that the parties have their own files too. Funny how dirt against somebody alway some out at just the right time.

Minister for agriculture gets caught drink driving leaked.
Alan Shatter leaks that Mick Wallace was let off using his mobile while driving.
Gerry McCabe was accused of child abuse in files.

pleasant Co.

Jeeeez, good thing there's nothing to worry about with the public services card, nothing like this would ever happen.

spaceHopper

pleasant Co. wrote: »

Jeeeez, good thing there's nothing to worry about with the public services card, nothing like this would ever happen.

I'll never get one but you do know it will be rebranded the covid vaccine digital passport and you will have a unique health identifier number

The Black Oil

My guess because this is Ireland:

• No one from the Dept of Health appeared on Prime Time
• It's unlikely anyone will be sacked
• If they are, they'll get a golden parachute
• Government task force to look into this, 3 years down the road its findings won't be implemented
• Access to disability services will continue to be difficult for families
• Waiting lists will remain very high
• The whistleblower will have to watch his six
• The atrocious recruitment panel system for HSCPs will probably remain in situ

One eyed Jack

Anyone involved in this that tried to keep it under the radar really are some shower of shìtehawks. It’s made even worse by the evasive use of language in statements they now decide to make to the public when their behaviour is exposed -


Robert Watt, the interim Secretary General of the Department of Health, said he wanted to reassure all parents, families and interested parties that the department has never unlawfully held sensitive medical and educational information of children involved in dormant court cases.


Martin seeks review of department’s gathering of dossiers on children


The concerns aren’t about whether or not what they did was lawful or unlawful, why would parents or families care about that, it’s not parents or their families would be held liable for the actions of anyone who tried to cover up their behaviour.

The concerns for the parents and families is that the people and State bodies who were supposed to be providing support to parents and their families were gathering information surreptitiously on the families who had previously entered into litigation to try and get support from the State for their families.

It isn’t just the unethical behaviour or the breach of families trust in a system that’s supposed to support them that’s concerning, it’s also the devious way the people involved tried to cover up their actions, politicians who were responsible for the departments at the time, claiming they knew nothing, and current politicians trying to defend the behaviour by claiming those involved did nothing unlawful. That’s diverting from the point that what they did was unethical.

Calhoun

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Anyone involved in this that tried to keep it under the radar really are some shower of shìtehawks. It’s made even worse by the evasive use of language in statements they now decide to make to the public when their behaviour is exposed -


Robert Watt, the interim Secretary General of the Department of Health, said he wanted to reassure all parents, families and interested parties that the department has never unlawfully held sensitive medical and educational information of children involved in dormant court cases.


Martin seeks review of department’s gathering of dossiers on children


The concerns aren’t about whether or not what they did was lawful or unlawful, why would parents or families care about that, it’s not parents or their families would be held liable for the actions of anyone who tried to cover up their behaviour.

The concerns for the parents and families is that the people and State bodies who were supposed to be providing support to parents and their families were gathering information surreptitiously on the families who had previously entered into litigation to try and get support from the State for their families.

It isn’t just the unethical behaviour or the breach of families trust in a system that’s supposed to support them that’s concerning, it’s also the devious way the people involved tried to cover up their actions, politicians who were responsible for the departments at the time, claiming they knew nothing, and current politicians trying to defend the behaviour by claiming those involved did nothing unlawful. That’s diverting from the point that what they did was unethical.

As i said above this is not surprising to any parent who is engaging in the system. I could give you a few names and the slimeball tactics they pull but don't want to open that can of worms.

Are you really surprised the government of the day defended it? the only way you will see them changing tune is if something worse comes out from it or the minister itself is impacted heavily from the fallout.

The big shocker though is this is not limited to the department of health, the department of education and some of our educators are as slimey and scummy as the people in the HSE. The fact is Ireland is not a very tolerant country when it comes to anyone that does not fit into the "normal" box.

One eyed Jack

Calhoun wrote: »

As i said above this is not surprising to any parent who is engaging in the system. I could give you a few names and the slimeball tactics they pull but don't want to open that can of worms.

Are you really surprised the government of the day defended it? the only way you will see them changing tune is if something worse comes out from it or the minister itself is impacted heavily from the fallout.

The big shocker though is this is not limited to the department of health, the department of education and some of our educators are as slimey and scummy as the people in the HSE. The fact is Ireland is not a very tolerant country when it comes to anyone that does not fit into the "normal" box.

I’ll be honest Calhoun even for what I knew of the way the various Government departments operate and the way organisations like the HSE and TUSLA operate, this was a new low.

I was genuinely surprised reading the article I linked to of the response by Madigan towing the party line rather than demonstrating a bit of humility or compassion for the families involved.

Everything I've seen has the HSE thinking they are golden and acted fully within the law, lets say I believe that (I don't) but what about a doctor handing over medical records without consent, surely you'd have a case to be answered there ? It's a massive breech of trust and privacy.

walshb

What’s the hoopla here all about?

Is what happened not something that can be expected in these type cases?

Claire Byrne had a very articulate medical barrister on today pointing out both sides here....he made absolute sense.

The information gathered is secure. Nobody’s information is being made public here.

This whistleblowing malarky is gone full circle crazy now..

It’ll get to the stage where nobody will do anything of consequence due to fear of someone ratting them out...

OscarMIlde

One eyed Jack wrote: »

It isn’t just the unethical behaviour or the breach of families trust in a system that’s supposed to support them that’s concerning, it’s also the devious way the people involved tried to cover up their actions, politicians who were responsible for the departments at the time, claiming they knew nothing, and current politicians trying to defend the behaviour by claiming those involved did nothing unlawful. That’s diverting from the point that what they did was unethical.

There was also a very interesting slant in all the government replies relating to the gathering of information on over 40 families with DORMANT cases. Obviously the whistleblower found the evidence relating to the dormant cases, as the intelligence gathering is still ongoing. However, as this appears to be standard practice of the government in relation to these cases, it would make you wonder what intelligence gathering was carried out on the now settled cases. That could bring the affected families involved amount to over a hundred cases at least.

Shane Corr, the whistleblower, is a very brave, and very decent man to have put his career on the line to let this injustice be known.

This was psychological warfare against highly vulnerable, highly stressed families. These families were pursuing legal action due to either inadequate, or in the case of many of the adult litigants, non-existent, service provision. These families had all the stress and burden of caring for their autistic children, with little or no state support. They also had the additional stress of the financial burden that would fall upon them if their case failed, and they had to pay legal costs of the state.

The government treated these people not as citizens deserving of support and equal treatment, but as enemies of the state. The fact that this evidence gathering is still ongoing and has been judged as fair game by the HSE and the dept of education shows how far the rot goes.

Heads should roll for this. Any doctors, psychologists, social workers and teachers who broke the confidentiality of their clients should face criminal and professional sanctions. People facing the consequences for these decisions is the only thing that will change this cultural attitude.

Calhoun

One eyed Jack wrote: »

I’ll be honest Calhoun even for what I knew of the way the various Government departments operate and the way organisations like the HSE and TUSLA operate, this was a new low.

I was genuinely surprised reading the article I linked to of the response by Madigan towing the party line rather than demonstrating a bit of humility or compassion for the families involved.

As someone engaged with a human rights solicitor as I said it doesn't surprise me. You have to be so careful when dealing with the HSE as they will use lots of dirty tricks when speaking with them.

I have heard stories where they have had to be forced to the steps of the court house before relenting and providing support they should.

It's all about self preservation of a bloated organization they are so fearful of setting precedent in court and having to pay more on vulnerable children it makes sense for them to go to these levels.

SEPT 23 1989

This is the same state that fought against girls who had very little time left who should have been spending that time with their children and families

OscarMIlde

walshb wrote: »

What’s the hoopla here all about?

Is what happened not something that can be expected in these type cases?

Claire Byrne had a very articulate medical barrister on today pointing out both sides here....he made absolute sense.

The information gathered is secure. Nobody’s information is being made public here.

This whistleblowing malarky is gone full circle crazy now..

It’ll get to the stage where nobody will do anything of consequence due to fear of someone ratting them out...

That's bull****. The department of health can't dip into people's medical files to gain information about them without informing them or obtaining their consent. Also the information was not secure. Shane Corr stumbled across this information in network drives that were accessible to anyone who worked in that department. This is information, gathered by social workers, doctors, and psychologists under the understanding that it remains confidential, being shared surreptitiously within and between government departments for the sole intent of gaining an advantage in litigation cases.

Imagine you were a parent of an autistic child. Your child has significant behavioural issues, has no language and cannot communicate what is wrong. He has no service provision as officially he is now an adult and no longer has any educational needs. Either you or your spouse needs to give up work full time in order to care for them.
You take action against the state to try and obtain a service for your child. While undertaking this action you are aware that the state is fighting these battles tooth and nail, hoping to not set any precedents forcing them to provide services to children like yours. You are aware that if your case fails you may be liable to pay all costs, and could lose everything. You decide to abandon the legal action.
Your child's conditions worsens. They spend hours every day shouting and wailing. Your marriage begins to suffer as you and your spouse struggle with the financial, emotional, and social burden of caring for your child. You attend counselling sessions to try and improve your marriage and cope with the stress.

Imagine learning that as you poured your heart out and laid bare your life in therapy sessions that your counseler was sharing your personal information with the government in order to use this information against you in any further legal action you may take.

Because this isn't some imaginary tale. This is exactly the type of information sharing that was detailed in that programme. This isn't normal information exchange. This is Stasi style dossiers on people who were merely trying to advocate and fight for their children.

spaceHopper

I think Calhoun spelled it out clearly to but.

walshb wrote: »

What’s the hoopla here all about?

hidden dirty tricks campaign, doctors know they shouldn't hand over files but fear what the department will do to them in revenge if they don't

Is what happened not something that can be expected in these type cases?

No it very much isn't what you say to your priest, doctor and solicitor is totally private

Claire Byrne had a very articulate medical barrister on today pointing out both sides here....he made absolute sense.

What did he say, they didn't break the law, they failed to get consent to gather the data that's a breach of GDPR

They filed to inform the families that they had the data so they had no opportunity to see and correct any mistake in the data. Again a breach of GDPR

The information gathered is secure. Nobody’s information is being made public here.

Anybody in the department could access the data, that's not secure again a breach of GDPR. This is a small country we have no idea who looked at the data and if they knew any of the families involved.

This whistleblowing malarky is gone full circle crazy now..

In the morning I'll be sober you will still be....

Calhoun

https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/revealed-department-ofhealths-top-official-called-head-of-rteahead-of-tv-expose-on-dossier-40245321.html

Update on this story, shows you the level these people will go.

As pointed by people elsewhere there was more than likely a threat with the above conversation. As there is prison term.rrkated to state secrets.

crossman47

spaceHopper wrote: »

I'll never get one but you do know it will be rebranded the covid vaccine digital passport and you will have a unique health identifier number

Which we should have - it would have made the vaccine roll out so much easier.

spaceHopper

crossman47 wrote: »

Which we should have - it would have made the vaccine roll out so much easier.

They've never had problems accessing my records with name date of birth. Lately the GP asked for my PPS, not sure why.

There is no need for a new number, a PPS would do.

pleasant Co.

pleasant Co. wrote: »

Jeeeez, good thing there's nothing to worry about with the public services card, nothing like this would ever happen.

spaceHopper wrote: »

I'll never get one but you do know it will be rebranded the covid vaccine digital passport and you will have a unique health identifier number

walshb wrote: »

What’s the hoopla here all about?

Is what happened not something that can be expected in these type cases?

Claire Byrne had a very articulate medical barrister on today pointing out both sides here....he made absolute sense.

The information gathered is secure. Nobody’s information is being made public here.

This whistleblowing malarky is gone full circle crazy now..

It’ll get to the stage where nobody will do anything of consequence due to fear of someone ratting them out...

How would most people feel if their doctor/psychiatrist, rather than acting in your best interest and treat your illness was compiling a dossier of information to be used against you at a later stage in court proceedings?

On the flip side, there's a certain contradiction between people who get outraged over the state collecting medical information on it's citizens in an instance like this but at the same time are in full support of Health ID, vaccine passport or whatever name they decide to put on it.

In 2017, there was outrage at the idea Public Services Card being mandatory to access services . Three years later and we are now discussing the idea of a health certificate not only to access services but to participate in society???

Water John

The Data Protection Commissioner (DPC) is launching an investigation:
https://www.thejournal.ie/dpc-data-watchdog-department-of-health-children-with-autism-5395664-Mar2021/

Holding info like vaccination schedule is quite different than gathering physc, family and educational Reports to build a hostile dossier.

AndrewJRenko

spaceHopper wrote: »

They've never had problems accessing my records with name date of birth. Lately the GP asked for my PPS, not sure why.

There is no need for a new number, a PPS would do.

How confident are you that you know enough about this topic to speak definitively on the 'no need for a unique health identifier' compared to the folks who've worked on this issue for years now?