Crazy extension prices

adocholiday

Hi all,

Just finished the tender process for an extension that we want to get done and the prices we got back were crazy. Only 3 builders priced the job and the prices were €145k, €160k and €170k. All we are doing is knocking a 1.5m x 1.8m porch and replacing with a 2.6m x 4.4m porch, and extending a 6m wide gable wall out by 2m and putting in full height and width glazing. The prices from the builders exclude the glass supply and fit. There are some other ancillary works being done too but those 2 are the primary changes.

Question is are prices crazy high at the moment and should we wait to see if things calm down? Or better to just take the risk now and go for it? I know nobody can see into the future but just wondering what trends people are seeing.

893bet

Is that two separate small extensions?

sydthebeat

€7,400 per meter without glazing ???

theres something very up with those prices.

adocholiday

893bet wrote: »

Is that two separate small extensions?

Yes it is actually

adocholiday

sydthebeat wrote: »

€7,400 per meter without glazing ???

theres something very up with those prices.

I've maybe over-simplified it a little bit for the sake of keeping the post short but yes even taking into account the additional bits of work it seems mad. For instance the 6x2 gable is vaulted so it's about 8m tall, the new porch is a slightly unusual shape so again might impact the price some but I don't think any of that justifies the price.

adocholiday

Double post

listermint

adocholiday wrote: »

I've maybe over-simplified it a little bit for the sake of keeping the post short but yes even taking into account the additional bits of work it seems mad. For instance the 6x2 gable is vaulted so it's about 8m tall, the new porch is a slightly unusual shape so again might impact the price some but I don't think any of that justifies the price.

Your bringing out the back of the house to full roof height by two meters ?

maxsmum

We added a 22sqm extension, attic conversion for 18sqm ensuite bedroom, entire house rewired and replumbed and windows replaced, it was 215k including retrofitting old house. We had 3 tenders. We actually got one price for 50% over the second highest. It took us a year to get over the shock and then realise we weren't going to get it cheaper. We honestly bought the house thinking our measly 100k to finish it would be enough. When we got a mortgage/equity release it doesn't work out as very expensive to fund the rest, well if you ignore the interest the bank earns over the term anyway. There's a lot to be said for buying a new build or a turnkey property. Most Irish homes come with tiny kitchens and rickety conservatories that are totally unsuitable for modern open plan living.

It is worth it in the end. But I wish we had been more prepared.

adocholiday

listermint wrote: »

Your bringing out the back of the house to full roof height by two meters ?

It's the side of the house really. Hard to explain without seeing it but basically the house is essentially 2 offset rectangular blocks. We are aligning one side with the other. I've done a very crude illustration here just to show it. We weren't going to bother with the 2m extension just glaze the gable but really that 2m will transform the space inside and will also look better architecturally so we felt it was worth it (before we got the prices back!)

https://i.imgur.com/p9qz0Es.png

adocholiday

maxsmum wrote: »

We added a 22sqm extension, attic conversion for 18sqm ensuite bedroom, entire house rewired and replumbed and windows replaced, it was 215k including retrofitting old house. We had 3 tenders. We actually got one price for 50% over the second highest. It took us a year to get over the shock and then realise we weren't going to get it cheaper. We honestly bought the house thinking our measly 100k to finish it would be enough. When we got a mortgage/equity release it doesn't work out as very expensive to fund the rest, well if you ignore the interest the bank earns over the term anyway. There's a lot to be said for buying a new build or a turnkey property. Most Irish homes come with tiny kitchens and rickety conservatories that are totally unsuitable for modern open plan living.

It is worth it in the end. But I wish we had been more prepared.

Yeah we were kind of in a similar boat because the architect and engineer both felt that it was a 120k-130k job including the glazing so it's been a fair jump! If the price is reasonable then we're ok to go for it, but just seems crazy high for a 21m extension with not much in the way of reworking things.

adocholiday

Is it possible to hire a QS myself? Would that be feasible? If I had an impartial QS to just give me a materials only costing at least then it'd be possible to see how much the builder is charging or inflating costs. Has anyone done this before?

DOCARCH

adocholiday wrote: »

If I had an impartial QS to just give me a materials only costing at least then it'd be possible to see how much the builder is charging or inflating costs. Has anyone done this before?

Not sure what the point would be TBH? What are you going to do with the information....tell all the builders they are inflating the costs?

If you have tendered the job, the lowest tendering contractor is unlikely to be inflating the costs.

If you are not happy with the tenders you received, get a couple more.

adocholiday

DOCARCH wrote: »

Not sure what the point would be TBH? What are you going to do with the information....tell all the builders they are inflating the costs?

If you have tendered the job, the lowest tendering contractor is unlikely to be inflating the costs.

If you are not happy with the tenders you received, get a couple more.

Fair point but the price just seems to be so far off the mark in terms of price per sqm that I'd like to know where the additional cost is coming from. I appreciate that the builder has a profit to make etc. I'm not expecting them to do the job for anything less than a fair and reasonable price, but at the same time there has to be a reason that the prices we received are so much higher than anticipated so would be good to get to the bottom of it. It might also put me in a better negotiating position to be informed.

dubrov

Prices are very high at the moment.

Maybe try a second tender. If you get 3 more quotes in the same take, you'll just have to accept that's the price right now

Graham

A QS might at least give the OP an indication of any elements that are particularly expensive giving them an opportunity to tweak the plans accordingly.

OP, have you asked your architect if they can organise/recommend a QS?

DOCARCH

Your architect/engineer suggested up to E130K.

Your lowest tender came in at E145K.

To me, that's not an absolute shocker?

I would suggest sitting down with lowest tendering contractor (possibly/probably with your architect/engineer) for a discussion to see where the money is going and might there be alternative/cheaper solutions to some elements, without loosing design/space, to see if builders tender can come close to what your architect/engineer were suggesting.

If that fails, then seek alternative tenders.

maxsmum

Check their QS prices too
Our builder's QS had kitchen in at 40k (!) and sanitary ware fittings were twice what we paid
Same for flooring
Kept our own boiler
One glazing pattern would have cost 25k in itself, we made a small change to the appearance and got it way down
There are a few ways to save cash, things like underfloor heatings, demolitions, walls and windows not much movement though

adocholiday

Graham wrote: »

OP, have you asked your architect if they can organise/recommend a QS?

DOCARCH wrote: »

Your architect/engineer suggested up to E130K.

Your lowest tender came in at E145K.

To me, that's not an absolute shocker?

I would suggest sitting down with lowest tendering contractor (possibly/probably with your architect/engineer) for a discussion to see where the money is going and might there be alternative/cheaper solutions to some elements, without loosing design/space, to see if builders tender can come close to what your architect/engineer were suggesting.

If that fails, then seek alternative tenders.

Sorry should have said the architect and engineer said that was what they expected including glazing (€30k) so we're €45k off. Appreciate that they are not quantity surveyors or builders so their guess couldn't be relied on for accuracy but they're both very experienced so their opinion would at least count for something.

I think though I will do as suggested which is to ask for a meeting for us all to go through the tender and see where they are seeing the biggest costs. Thanks for the input everyone.

sydthebeat

adocholiday wrote: »

Sorry should have said the architect and engineer said that was what they expected including glazing (€30k) so we're €45k off. Appreciate that they are not quantity surveyors or builders so their guess couldn't be relied on for accuracy but they're both very experienced so their opinion would at least count for something.

I think though I will do as suggested which is to ask for a meeting for us all to go through the tender and see where they are seeing the biggest costs. Thanks for the input everyone.

also be aware that prices have rocketed in the last 6 months, between materials rising and labour being essentially restricted causing pent up demand

there could easily have been 20% added from a first consultation 6 months ago

maxsmum

Definitely have the meeting, make your adjustments but in my experience once you digest that it's gonna cost more and accept that, it is worth it in the end to have the house your way. Make your peace with it and start picking out the fun stuff!

Dudda

I'm presuming you've got planning permission so keep this in mind when looking at reducing the cost. Make sure whatever cost saving changes you or the builder proposes doesn't impact the planning or are minor enough changes that the architect / engineer will still sign off. Last thing you want is to have to apply for planning again or retention when it's finished.

DOCARCH

maxsmum wrote: »

Make your peace with it and start picking out the fun stuff!

Will remember that for use with clients.

purplefields

We too have been looking at building costs.

In my opinion, it is a terrible time to do this. There is huge pent up demand for construction at the moment. Even before covid, builders were as rare as hens teeth - especially those that would even entertain a quote. (well done for getting three BTW!) I'm not surprised costs are through the roof.

What we are going to do is wait until lockdown ends and either import labour from another European country, or import pre-fab. Consider that in a few months EWSS/PUP will be ending and people will realise they've lost their jobs - hopefully I'm not one of them. The economy is about to take an almighty battering. I am aware already of lots of companies that have closed because of covid.

Things will look much different this time next year.

beggars_bush

purplefields wrote: »

We too have been looking at building costs.

In my opinion, it is a terrible time to do this. There is huge pent up demand for construction at the moment. Even before covid, builders were as rare as hens teeth - especially those that would even entertain a quote. (well done for getting three BTW!) I'm not surprised costs are through the roof.

What we are going to do is wait until lockdown ends and either import labour from another European country, or import pre-fab. Consider that in a few months EWSS/PUP will be ending and people will realise they've lost their jobs - hopefully I'm not one of them. The economy is about to take an almighty battering. I am aware already of lots of companies that have closed because of covid.

Things will look much different this time next year.

Everyone who didn't start building this year will be doing it next year.
There'll still be huge demand for everything

adocholiday

beggars_bush wrote: »

Everyone who didn't start building this year will be doing it next year.
There'll still be huge demand for everything

Yeah that's our thoughts on it too. We can put it off indefinitely in the hope that prices fall or we can just push on and get it done. Have a second walkthrough with the cheapest builder and our engineer this weekend to make sure that he's covered everything so will see how it goes.

maestroamado

sydthebeat wrote: »

€7,400 per meter without glazing ???

theres something very up with those prices.

I am guessing that should be €740 but that seems cheap...

adocholiday

maestroamado wrote: »

I am guessing that should be €740 but that seems cheap...

No, the total new floor space is 21 sqm and the prices quoted were 145k, 160k and 170k. Most online calculators say to estimate for €1k-€2k per sqm for an extension but many of those are pre-Covid and our build isn't a single story block extension to the back of the house so stands to reason that it would cost a bit more. Should it be €7k per sqm though was the original question.

sydthebeat

maestroamado wrote: »

I am guessing that should be €740 but that seems cheap...

nope......

you may read it again

maestroamado

sydthebeat wrote: »

nope......

you may read it again

Is that per metre sq? there may be a format i am not aware of...

Actually on checking middle price of original post about what you mention.

sydthebeat

maestroamado wrote: »

Is that per metre sq? there may be a format i am not aware of...

if you work out the floor area of the proposed works, given the information in the 1st post.... and then divide that figure into the 170K that was quoted... you get to a "per sq m" figure

BryanF

adocholiday wrote: »

No, the total new floor space is 21 sqm and the prices quoted were 145k, 160k and 170k. Most online calculators say to estimate for €1k-€2k per sqm for an extension but many of those are pre-Covid and our build isn't a single story block extension to the back of the house so stands to reason that it would cost a bit more. Should it be €7k per sqm though was the original question.

You are doing works to the existing house aswell?
And that factored into your m2 rate?

sydthebeat

BryanF wrote: »

You are doing works to the existing house aswell?
And that factored into your m2 rate?

To be fair to the OP, they didn't present a "per sq m" figure, just the overall quote.

I presented a per sq m figure to emphasise how high the quotes were

adocholiday

BryanF wrote: »

You are doing works to the existing house aswell?
And that factored into your m2 rate?

Other than the demolition nothing major. Moving a sink and a radiator and knocking out an opening in a wall for a double door and then some new lighting etc in the new ceiling space. The plumbing and electric sub work though are in as separate line items and account for little enough of the overall price.

maestroamado

sydthebeat wrote: »

nope......

you may read it again

Say family home 150sq metre.

150x7400 = €1,110,000 + glass.

Please tell me i doing this calculation wrong.

Absolutely no way....

TRADES SUPPLY AVAILABLE

Back to the beginning. The Sq mtr price seem high but where are you located? what are the access logistics? safety issues? On the other hand one substantial point being missed is that, because of Britain leaving the EU materials have skyrocketed because the EU are instructing the Irish Government to put (collectively) high tax rates on imported goods i.e. timber has had "up to" a 40% increase and of course as we know most products are imported into Ireland via UK. A copy of your drawings, and in most cases, a visit to the location, would help considerably to give a more accurate understanding of what's involved otherwise posts like these only really receive "Opinions". Regards.

Odelay

TRADES SUPPLY AVAILABLE wrote: »

Back to the beginning. The Sq mtr price seem high but where are you located? what are the access logistics? safety issues? On the other hand one substantial point being missed is that, because of Britain leaving the EU materials have skyrocketed because the EU are instructing the Irish Government to put (collectively) high tax rates on imported goods i.e. timber has had "up to" a 40% increase and of course as we know most products are imported into Ireland via UK. A copy of your drawings, and in most cases, a visit to the location, would help considerably to give a more accurate understanding of what's involved otherwise posts like these only really receive "Opinions". Regards.

Where did you get this from?

sydthebeat

maestroamado wrote: »

Say family home 150sq metre.

150x7400 = €1,110,000 + glass.

Please tell me i doing this calculation wrong.

Absolutely no way....

That is comparing apples to oranges..

Greenfield new builds of bigger areas will always be cheaper per sq m than extensions...

My point was that the figures quoted seemed very excessive even when compared to high level extension quotes.

But really we don't know the exact specifications and restrictions etc so any comment is purely based on the info given

TRADES SUPPLY AVAILABLE

Odelay wrote: »

Where did you get this from?

What from ?

muffler

TRADES SUPPLY AVAILABLE wrote: »

What from ?

The part of your post in bold 're the EU instructing the government here to apply higher taxes on imported building materials. Perhaps you would show a source for that.

Odelay

TRADES SUPPLY AVAILABLE wrote: »

What from ?

The part in bold.

maestroamado

If what i am reading here is correct it will be a very select few who will have a place of their own in this country going forward especially places like Dublin, Galway etc...
We have come along way in the 10 years since the boom, bust and boom again. It's a sad story really...

TRADES SUPPLY AVAILABLE

muffler wrote: »

The part of your post in bold 're the EU instructing the government here to apply higher taxes on imported building materials. Perhaps you would show a source for that.

I didn't put anything in "Bold", for me to explain would be going off of original subject, but while we're at it, have you wondered why there is a lack of some products and tools available at present? With "respect" I take it you are in the trade ?

muffler

TRADES SUPPLY AVAILABLE wrote: »

I didn't put anything in "Bold", for me to explain would be going off of original subject,

No one said you put anything in bold. Odelay quoted a previous post of yours and highlighted (in bold) a part of that post asking you clarify where you got that info from. I also asked that you post a source to support your comment. So lets not pretend that you dont know what was asked of you. This is what you said ...

because the EU are instructing the Irish Government to put (collectively) high tax rates on imported goods

Thats a big statement so can you post a source to back it up?

TRADES SUPPLY AVAILABLE wrote: »

With "respect" I take it you are in the trade ?

Not in the construction end of things but the forum name will give a clue

TRADES SUPPLY AVAILABLE

muffler wrote: »

No one said you put anything in bold. Odelay quoted a previous post of yours and highlighted (in bold) a part of that post asking you clarify where you got that info from. I also asked that you post a source to support your comment. So lets not pretend that you dont know what was asked of you. This is what you said ... Thats a big statement so can you post a source to back it up?


Not in the construction end of things but the forum name will give a clue

I purchase up to 7 figure sums of materials every year, thats where I get that from. My apologies and I stand corrected if I am wrong but is this where you are thinking of taking this conversation down the "Brit Bashing" road ?

dubrov

TRADES SUPPLY AVAILABLE wrote:

I purchase up to 7 figure sums of materials every year, thats where I get that from. My apologies and I stand corrected if I am wrong but is this where you are thinking of taking this conversation down the "Brit Bashing" road ?

Can you provide a link to support the claim or even state a product that incurs these high tax rates?

DOCARCH

TRADES SUPPLY AVAILABLE wrote: »

My apologies and I stand corrected if I am wrong but is this where you are thinking of taking this conversation down the "Brit Bashing" road ?

Really not sure where you got that idea from???

As poster states above, can you post a source to back up your claim.

listermint

TRADES SUPPLY AVAILABLE wrote: »

I purchase up to 7 figure sums of materials every year, thats where I get that from. My apologies and I stand corrected if I am wrong but is this where you are thinking of taking this conversation down the "Brit Bashing" road ?

I think what you meant to write Hermann was that the UK decided to exit a customs union at the end of last year resulting in all of the standard stuff that third countries have to deal with and it was a very foolish thing to do based on a scraped result.

But let's not let that get in the way of a good anti irish and anti EU post with no basis in reality , because you source some stuff from the uk and are missing the ability to diversify to customs Union producers .

maestroamado

The problem if there is one is most if not all supply companies for building in this country the parent company based in the UK.
There may be an opportunity here for Irish companies to buy direct from Europe.
I am of the opinion that all wood used in construction here is not grown in UK, other posters will have other examples. If this is indeed the problem we need to start sourcing direct from EU.
The fact that no-one from the trade can give a guide price per sq metre is for me incredible, it tells me that the cost is
"as much as i can get out of it"
There will almost be another big crash...

muffler

TRADES SUPPLY AVAILABLE wrote: »

is this where you are thinking of taking this conversation down the "Brit Bashing" road ?

I can't believe you said that.

But then again it's in line with your claim about higher taxes on materials which you have yet to back up or retract.

tonc76

FYI the text below and info attached is from a RIAI 2019 doc titled Working with an Architect

Building Costs
The cost of your build will depend on a wide range of factors including house size, construction methods, materials, finishes and
site context. The RIAI have compiled some typical building costs
– from new single and two story houses to house extensions and
renovations to an existing house.
Cautionary Note: The domestic housing construction market is
suffering from inflationary costs, and may continue to do so for the foreseeable future. The guidance issued on construction costs must be viewed and assessed on current market conditions and are offered as guidance only from an early date in 2019.

maestroamado

tonc76 wrote: »

FYI the text below and info attached is from a RIAI 2019 doc titled Working with an Architect

Building Costs
The cost of your build will depend on a wide range of factors including house size, construction methods, materials, finishes and
site context. The RIAI have compiled some typical building costs
– from new single and two story houses to house extensions and
renovations to an existing house.
Cautionary Note: The domestic housing construction market is
suffering from inflationary costs, and may continue to do so for the foreseeable future. The guidance issued on construction costs must be viewed and assessed on current market conditions and are offered as guidance only from an early date in 2019.

Thanks for that.
I am very interested in this topic and from the figures in this doc the average person find it difficult to ever get on property market.


I wonder what NAMA and all these agencies have being doing for the last 10 years as the whole housing thing is out of control.
Also the Government has allowed these Corporate and Financial companies to buy up homes that planning stated were built for people and families, so now these people only option is rent..
It has no personal effect on me but i do not like it...