Heating Issue

generalgerry

Hi everybody,

My heating stopped working recently. The boiler is running fine and heating the water, and the pump is turning (I can hear it and I opened it and made sure that it turns), but the pipes in the house are not getting warm. I know the first pipes in the house where the heat enters, but they are not getting warm. I've tried bleeding the rads but still no go.

I have someone here who doesn't want anybody calling cos they are scared of COVID. Is it possible to get a Skype Plumber for advice or the like, is that thing even done?? Willing to pay.

thanks for reading. :pac:

Lenar3556

generalgerry wrote: »

Hi everybody,

My heating stopped working recently. The boiler is running fine and heating the water, and the pump is turning (I can hear it and I opened it and made sure that it turns), but the pipes in the house are not getting warm. I know the first pipes in the house where the heat enters, but they are not getting warm. I've tried bleeding the rads but still no go.

I have someone here who doesn't want anybody calling cos they are scared of COVID. Is it possible to get a Skype Plumber for advice or the like, is that thing even done?? Willing to pay.

thanks for reading. :pac:

Most likely to be an issue with a zone valve or else a low water level in the system.

Can you take photos of the boiler, hot press etc.?

generalgerry

Thanks for replying.

This was really difficult where it is. The pipe marked white is the pipe that comes from the outside Riello 40 Oil Burner - even when the heating stopped working throughout the house, this had been getting warm as far as the boiler. But now even this pipe is not getting warm.

So the water is warm from the Riello 40 Oil Burner, through the pump and into the ground, but where that pipe comes back up in the house is no longer getting warm.



Oh, and it was me that put in the connector strips on the lines to the thermostat and secondary pump so that I could confirm that they are both working. And they are both working, but the pipe never heats up enough for the thermostat to turn on and turn on the secondary pump. I hope that makes sense.

Wearb

From those pictures, there doesn't seem to be much of a way of getting air out of the heating circuit. Is it a sealed system?

What position is that red valve in i.e half open etc. Count turns so that you can put it back where it was.

Pump turning can be deceiving and if impeller damaged it might not be pumping.

generalgerry

Wearb wrote: »

From those pictures, there doesn't seem to be much of a way of getting air out of the heating circuit. Is it a sealed system? What position is that red valve in i.e half open etc. Count turns so that you can put it back where it was.

I honestly don't know the answer to the first part. I haven't gone near the red valve, it has been in the same position for 20 years I'd say!

Pump turning can be deceiving and if impeller damaged it might not be pumping.

This was the one thing that I thought about. I tested the motor by screwing off the outer screw and making sure that the inner screw turns. It makes noise when running, and the water on the pipe on the other side of the motor is warm (but I don't know if that is just the heat conducting through the motor, not that the water is actually being pumped properly through the system).

I guess the issue is either the motor not working properly or something inhibiting the flow.

generalgerry

This is the outdoor pump (I rotated the image 180 so that you can see the text on the pump). I'm gonna replace the pump anyway and see if fixes the problem.

Lenar3556

Replacing the pump will do no harm. Don’t rely on those valves either side of the pump. You will need to drain down the system. If replacing the pump you should change the brass fitting either end. You can get better ones which incorporate gate valves.

I don’t see any sign of zone valves.

The other important thing to check is that there is enough water in the system. Is there an expansion tank in the attic? Is it at least half full? Is the outlet pipe blocked with sediment?

generalgerry

Okay I've put myself through youtube/reader's digest plumbing school today.

I'm picking up a new pump tomorrow from the local heat merchant's. I have those little isolation valves above and below the motor which don't look very reliable, but I'm gonna try trusting them as there is no drain valve on any of the radiators. Failing that, I will release the valve on the radiator nearest the back door and let the water drain out through that (before replacing it with a proper drain cock.

I was up at the F&E tank upstairs and there is plenty of water in it. I pushed down on the stopcock to make sure that there was water coming in from the mains and there is, but it was all taken out through the overflow as the system was already full. So no issue with lack of water in the system.

Note: I've read through the responses above, thanks for those, anything I haven't addressed I just don't know enough to answer.

CaptainCoPilot

Your boiler probably has a drain cock, conveniently located outside too.

generalgerry

Well look at you with your fancy pump with LEDs and push button switches :cool:



Alas, still no heat around the house. Pump is moving and hot water initially came to the point marked by the white arrow below inside the house. Shortly after, the boiler stopped outside as the gauge reached it's temperature mark, and the point marked by the white arrow below slowly cooled.



An hour later and the boiler gauge still show it's temperature mark, has not restarted, and the pipes around the motor feel warm.

Probably reaching the limit of what can be done over the InterWeb at this stage.

CoBo55

What setting are you using on the new pump? I got my pump replaced and the guy in the plumbers merchants advised me not to buy the grundfos he said they were getting terrible problems with them. Plumber who did the job agreed.

jimf

generalgerry wrote: »

Okay I've put myself through youtube/reader's digest plumbing school today.

I'm picking up a new pump tomorrow from the local heat merchant's. I have those little isolation valves above and below the motor which don't look very reliable, but I'm gonna try trusting them as there is no drain valve on any of the radiators. Failing that, I will release the valve on the radiator nearest the back door and let the water drain out through that (before replacing it with a proper drain cock.

I was up at the F&E tank upstairs and there is plenty of water in it. I pushed down on the stopcock to make sure that there was water coming in from the mains and there is, but it was all taken out through the overflow as the system was already full. So no issue with lack of water in the system.

Note: I've read through the responses above, thanks for those, anything I haven't addressed I just don't know enough to answer.

you need to make sure that the water from the tank in the attic is actually feeding your system make sure you have no blockage from the outlet
as previously advised by lenar

John.G

IF that pump setting is only showing 1 green light then it will pump the sqroot of nothing as that is only speed1 @ a 1M head,
press the setting button until you get that one green followed immediately by one yellow which is speed2 and a more realistic 3.2M head, see how you get on at this setting and I might suggest a even better setting later.

John.G

Looking at your pump again, if you have a "65" rather than "60" then that speed setting1 should be 4.4M which should be OK, speed2 and speed3 seem to be both 6.5M settings which may cause pump over into the F&E tank and should not be necessary under any normal circumstances.

generalgerry

CoBo55 wrote: »

What setting are you using on the new pump?

John.G wrote: »

IF that pump setting is only showing 1 green light then it will pump the sqroot of nothing as that is only speed1 @ a 1M head

I did hit the push button to try increase the speed, but I got confused when the orange light at the end lit up. I read through the manual and it seems that it switches different modes, but by hitting the button a few more times I should be able to get the pump to setting III. The only concern I had was possibly burning out the motor if there is too much resistance (with a serious blockage or something). I will do this later.

jimf wrote: »

you need to make sure that the water from the tank in the attic is actually feeding your system

Yeah I found where this pipe comes down so I should be easily able to isolate this and confirm that the water is coming down from the F&E tank.








/

John.G

Can you just confirm the pump model by taking a close up photo of the pump itself, I think you have a Alpha 1 L 65, the 65 or 60 bit is what I am interested in and makes a huge difference to the pump curves.

generalgerry

This is the pump model



Invoice says:
ALPHA1 L 25-65 130 1X230V 50HZ 9H IE

John.G

Just confirm that the new pump is pumping the same way as the old one, downwards??. I would also try and get that red gate valve on the cylinder coil return checked/opened, if you can't turn the handwheel remove it and with a small adjustable spanner try shutting it 1/2 a turn or so then open it fully, about 3 to 5 full turns from shut, shut it fully and reopen it one full turn.

Re your 6.5M pump, it should have plenty of head even at speed setting1 but you can try it on setting2 even though a very high setting which can cause problems but it certainly won't overload the motor.

Your old pump may well have been OK so as suggested, blockage in cold feed or air in system.

Also check for NRV (non return valve) installed below the pump (discharge) or another on the rads supply which may be blocked/restricted with sludge.

spuddy4711

I had the same problem, finally solved by turning all rads off, switching the boiler on, then opening and
closing each of the rads in turn. It was an air lock, took a lot of time to shift. As you try each rad, give time for the hot water to reach that point. If you have plenty of hot water in the hot press, pump is doing it’s job.

John.G

Yes, or shut off both sides of each rad, remove the blank 1/2ins vent plug and flush a litre or two from each side into a bucket.

generalgerry

Well, that was fun.

Stopped both valves, removed the bolts with a bit of difficulty and removed the radiator. It was very clean, no blockage.

I also let some water flow out of the and verified that it replenished by the F&E tank upstairs. So the feed from this is also working.

CoBo55

I'm assuming still no heat? Was there much crud around the isolation valves each side of the pump? Maybe one or both of them didn't open properly after you installed the new pump, that type you have are notoriously troublesome.

Curious_Case

Do you have a dual fuel system by any chance?

Curious_Case

A friend mentioned a situation recently --

The system had two thermostats, one went on and off as required but the other was a backup that needed to be manually reset once it had tripped.

CoBo55

Curious_Case wrote: »

Assuming your copper cylinder is heated indirectly by a coil through which your boiler is pumping hot water then most of the system is working.

I don't think it is heating properly, hot water seems to be rising by gravity from the boiler but not actually circulating through the system.

generalgerry

I'm gonna draw up a diagram of it in photoshop, will post later.

generalgerry

Firstly in the boiler house, I checked the isolation valves above and below the motor and they are both fine. I let a bit of water run from both in to a bucket and there was no issue with flow.


Here is a diagram of the system. I have a little infrared thermometer which I used to take the temperatures of the pipes at points on the system. The ambient temperature is about 14° C

Image attached below. It seems like at that one three way joint in the hot press the heat just stops. (previously the heat had been penetrating up as far as the tank but not now). One side of that joint is hot to touch, on the other sides of the joint it's at room temp above and below..

John.G

Before to do any more check the the arrow on that circ pump, is it pointing up or down?.

Curious_Case

Where does the pipe that connects to the lower inlet/outlet of your copper cylinder's coil go? the coil/element has central heating water running through it, so there should be two connections to your heating system (the lower connection on the other side is cold water in).

You're getting up to speed really fast in analysing your system, maybe let your copper cylinder heat up to "bath ready" via the electric immersion and then turn on your boiler to see if warm water is travelling through the coil (the warm water will have been heated by conduction in the cylinder, NOT by your boiler, but it might tell you what the pumps are doing).

The above might also help determine if there's a blockage or a dry section of pipe.

generalgerry

Circulation pump definitely in the right way, I have photos of the old one to compare. There is no electric immersion connection.

Okay I have added in all the other pipes going to the tank. Obviously these are not how the pipes are physically laid out, but I have traced each pipe and tried to make it fit in a 2D image.

thanks,

punisher5112

Have you balanced the system?


Turn off all rads, the ones nearest the boiler in line won't need to be turned on full.....

The outlet you can also adjust so it's near closed too.....

Close all these 1st then run the system.

The rad that's furthest away or last in line would usually be opened all the way or where you feel is enough and slightly more open on the exit too.....

John.G

generalgerry wrote: »

Circulation pump definitely in the right way, I have photos of the old one to compare. There is no electric immersion connection.

Okay I have added in all the other pipes going to the tank. Obviously these are not how the pipes are physically laid out, but I have traced each pipe and tried to make it fit in a 2D image.

thanks,

Don't want to keep beating the same old drum but when you get a new circ pump, 99% of the time the pump label will be the "right way up" with the arrow on the pump body pointing upwards, obviously you just turn the whole pump around to install it with the arrow pointing downwards but then the pump label will be upside down which isn't a problem but some like to have the label upright so they just rotate the pump head through 180 deg but the pump is still pumping in the required downward direction so I assume this is what you did?

Also, have you turned the red knob on the boiler PRV slowly anticlockwise to release any trapped air?.

Curious_Case

generalgerry wrote: »

Circulation pump definitely in the right way, I have photos of the old one to compare. There is no electric immersion connection.

Okay I have added in all the other pipes going to the tank. Obviously these are not how the pipes are physically laid out, but I have traced each pipe and tried to make it fit in a 2D image.

thanks,

Just a thought if you have time to experiment further --

Tie up ballcock in expansion tank, leave a few hours and check to see if water level has dropped.
If not, run system for a few minutes and check again.

Low water might explain how circulating pumps are running but not distributing heat.
Also, an ongoing leak might account for the fact that radiators went first, then the hot water.

generalgerry

punisher5112 wrote: »

Have you balanced the system?

I went through the procedure with the plumberparts guy on youtube, and it seems easy enough, but haven't done it yet.

Curious_Case wrote: »

Just a thought if you have time to experiment further --Tie up ballcock in expansion tank, leave a few hours and check to see if water level has dropped.If not, run system for a few minutes and check again.

Sounds like a good idea. Will try.

John.G wrote: »

Don't want to keep beating the same old drum but when you get a new circ pump, 99% of the time the pump label will be the "right way up" with the arrow on the pump body pointing upwards,

Also, have you turned the red knob on the boiler PRV slowly anticlockwise to release any trapped air?.

Picture of old and new pumps in place attached below. When installing I was conscious about keeping the arrows in the same direction moreso than having the pump upright.

I turned the knob this morning on the PRV and released some water. I will turn on the heating later to see if it made any difference.

generalgerry

I'm just wondering. Since I took out the ground floor radiator on Saturday (and left it out), I have easy access to plug a hose in to the thermostatic valve and drain the entire system. At this point would I be better off just biting the bullet and draining the whole thing. Might be good experience as I will have to support this central heating system going forward.

CoBo55

generalgerry wrote: »

I'm just wondering. Since I took out the ground floor radiator on Saturday (and left it out), I have easy access to plug a hose in to the thermostatic valve and drain the entire system. At this point would I be better off just biting the bullet and draining the whole thing. Might be good experience as I will have to support this central heating system going forward.

Why drain the whole system? I wouldn't do that tbh. It's a circulation problem and inviting air into the system would create more problems.

wiz569

Is that second pump the wrong way around?

Surely the two pumps are pumping against each other!

punisher5112

wiz569 wrote: »

Is that second pump the wrong way around?

Surely the two pumps are pumping against each other!

Arrows show both are same direction....

One is the old the other is new the op fitted as replacement.

wiz569

punisher5112 wrote: »

Arrows show both are same direction....

One is the old the other is new the op fitted as replacement.

I mean looking at the image in post 30

Curious_Case

wiz569 wrote: »

Is that second pump the wrong way around?

Surely the two pumps are pumping against each other!

They are opposing each other all right but they're also supplementing each other from the point of view of that pipe going down from the left hand tee.

I don't know if it's by design or if the layout evolved to solve problems.

John.G

Can't understand reason for the pipe stat on the primary cylinder coil starting the second pump which is then pumping back into the cylinder return and also going upwards and downwards?, is this pump returning the water to the boiler return or what, also would be nice to see the rad circuit drawn out as a schematic on a simple line diagram.

generalgerry

I released about two buckets of water from the PRV (seemed to be a bit of air in it) and I kicked the new motor up to three and we are now getting luke warm water to all the radiators. It's a start but I need to improve the circulation.

John.G

If you could circulate water around the rad circuit only first by using one pump (new) only it may help. I think you said the second pump starts on rising temperature so you can prevent that by turning the stat up to max, if it starts on falling temperature, turn the stat to minimum. If you can get a direct circuit around the rads it may prove something.

Also ensure you are not circulating water up to the F&E tank with that very high pump setting.

generalgerry

I'm just carrying out a few test runs to see if the circulation improves.

Fun fact: If I turn off the secondary motor the tank warms up fully, and the rads get nothing. With the motor on the tank stays cold and the rads warm up.

John.G

Can't really suggest anything else without a line diagram of the whole system.

Curious_Case

generalgerry wrote: »

I'm just carrying out a few test runs to see if the circulation improves.

Fun fact: If I turn off the secondary motor the tank warms up fully, and the rads get nothing. With the motor on the tank stays cold and the rads warm up.

Just a guess - why not try closing off that gate valve a few turns to see if any water gets redirected to the rads without the secondary pump running?

Also, separately or simultaneously, you could try reducing the speed of the secondary pump?

generalgerry

Hi everybody, just checking back in. Since we've been here I've done a couple of things.
1. I drained out a good bit of water in order to put in some inhibitor in the F&E tank earlier in the week - I know this is normally done through a rad but this way was just easier for me.
2. I took off another radiator, in one of the more prominent rooms, cleaned it out and refitted.
3. I ran the heating for a couple of hours every night since.

It's been getting progressively better each night and we're back in action. Just want to say thanks to everybody here who helped. Really enjoyed the learning experience.

I've donated a hundred euro to Crumlin Children's Hospital on your behalf