Heating Issue

generalgerry

Hi everybody,

My heating stopped working recently. The boiler is running fine and heating the water, and the pump is turning (I can hear it and I opened it and made sure that it turns), but the pipes in the house are not getting warm. I know the first pipes in the house where the heat enters, but they are not getting warm. I've tried bleeding the rads but still no go.

I have someone here who doesn't want anybody calling cos they are scared of COVID. Is it possible to get a Skype Plumber for advice or the like, is that thing even done?? Willing to pay.

thanks for reading. :pac:

Lenar3556

generalgerry wrote: »

Hi everybody,

My heating stopped working recently. The boiler is running fine and heating the water, and the pump is turning (I can hear it and I opened it and made sure that it turns), but the pipes in the house are not getting warm. I know the first pipes in the house where the heat enters, but they are not getting warm. I've tried bleeding the rads but still no go.

I have someone here who doesn't want anybody calling cos they are scared of COVID. Is it possible to get a Skype Plumber for advice or the like, is that thing even done?? Willing to pay.

thanks for reading. :pac:

Most likely to be an issue with a zone valve or else a low water level in the system.

Can you take photos of the boiler, hot press etc.?

generalgerry

Thanks for replying.

This was really difficult where it is. The pipe marked white is the pipe that comes from the outside Riello 40 Oil Burner - even when the heating stopped working throughout the house, this had been getting warm as far as the boiler. But now even this pipe is not getting warm.

So the water is warm from the Riello 40 Oil Burner, through the pump and into the ground, but where that pipe comes back up in the house is no longer getting warm.



Oh, and it was me that put in the connector strips on the lines to the thermostat and secondary pump so that I could confirm that they are both working. And they are both working, but the pipe never heats up enough for the thermostat to turn on and turn on the secondary pump. I hope that makes sense.

Wearb

From those pictures, there doesn't seem to be much of a way of getting air out of the heating circuit. Is it a sealed system?

What position is that red valve in i.e half open etc. Count turns so that you can put it back where it was.

Pump turning can be deceiving and if impeller damaged it might not be pumping.

generalgerry

Wearb wrote: »

From those pictures, there doesn't seem to be much of a way of getting air out of the heating circuit. Is it a sealed system? What position is that red valve in i.e half open etc. Count turns so that you can put it back where it was.

I honestly don't know the answer to the first part. I haven't gone near the red valve, it has been in the same position for 20 years I'd say!

Pump turning can be deceiving and if impeller damaged it might not be pumping.

This was the one thing that I thought about. I tested the motor by screwing off the outer screw and making sure that the inner screw turns. It makes noise when running, and the water on the pipe on the other side of the motor is warm (but I don't know if that is just the heat conducting through the motor, not that the water is actually being pumped properly through the system).

I guess the issue is either the motor not working properly or something inhibiting the flow.

generalgerry

This is the outdoor pump (I rotated the image 180 so that you can see the text on the pump). I'm gonna replace the pump anyway and see if fixes the problem.

Lenar3556

Replacing the pump will do no harm. Don’t rely on those valves either side of the pump. You will need to drain down the system. If replacing the pump you should change the brass fitting either end. You can get better ones which incorporate gate valves.

I don’t see any sign of zone valves.

The other important thing to check is that there is enough water in the system. Is there an expansion tank in the attic? Is it at least half full? Is the outlet pipe blocked with sediment?

generalgerry

Okay I've put myself through youtube/reader's digest plumbing school today.

I'm picking up a new pump tomorrow from the local heat merchant's. I have those little isolation valves above and below the motor which don't look very reliable, but I'm gonna try trusting them as there is no drain valve on any of the radiators. Failing that, I will release the valve on the radiator nearest the back door and let the water drain out through that (before replacing it with a proper drain cock.

I was up at the F&E tank upstairs and there is plenty of water in it. I pushed down on the stopcock to make sure that there was water coming in from the mains and there is, but it was all taken out through the overflow as the system was already full. So no issue with lack of water in the system.

Note: I've read through the responses above, thanks for those, anything I haven't addressed I just don't know enough to answer.

CaptainCoPilot

Your boiler probably has a drain cock, conveniently located outside too.

generalgerry

Well look at you with your fancy pump with LEDs and push button switches :cool:



Alas, still no heat around the house. Pump is moving and hot water initially came to the point marked by the white arrow below inside the house. Shortly after, the boiler stopped outside as the gauge reached it's temperature mark, and the point marked by the white arrow below slowly cooled.



An hour later and the boiler gauge still show it's temperature mark, has not restarted, and the pipes around the motor feel warm.

Probably reaching the limit of what can be done over the InterWeb at this stage.

CoBo55

What setting are you using on the new pump? I got my pump replaced and the guy in the plumbers merchants advised me not to buy the grundfos he said they were getting terrible problems with them. Plumber who did the job agreed.

jimf

generalgerry wrote: »

Okay I've put myself through youtube/reader's digest plumbing school today.

I'm picking up a new pump tomorrow from the local heat merchant's. I have those little isolation valves above and below the motor which don't look very reliable, but I'm gonna try trusting them as there is no drain valve on any of the radiators. Failing that, I will release the valve on the radiator nearest the back door and let the water drain out through that (before replacing it with a proper drain cock.

I was up at the F&E tank upstairs and there is plenty of water in it. I pushed down on the stopcock to make sure that there was water coming in from the mains and there is, but it was all taken out through the overflow as the system was already full. So no issue with lack of water in the system.

Note: I've read through the responses above, thanks for those, anything I haven't addressed I just don't know enough to answer.

you need to make sure that the water from the tank in the attic is actually feeding your system make sure you have no blockage from the outlet
as previously advised by lenar

John.G

IF that pump setting is only showing 1 green light then it will pump the sqroot of nothing as that is only speed1 @ a 1M head,
press the setting button until you get that one green followed immediately by one yellow which is speed2 and a more realistic 3.2M head, see how you get on at this setting and I might suggest a even better setting later.

John.G

Looking at your pump again, if you have a "65" rather than "60" then that speed setting1 should be 4.4M which should be OK, speed2 and speed3 seem to be both 6.5M settings which may cause pump over into the F&E tank and should not be necessary under any normal circumstances.

generalgerry

CoBo55 wrote: »

What setting are you using on the new pump?

John.G wrote: »

IF that pump setting is only showing 1 green light then it will pump the sqroot of nothing as that is only speed1 @ a 1M head

I did hit the push button to try increase the speed, but I got confused when the orange light at the end lit up. I read through the manual and it seems that it switches different modes, but by hitting the button a few more times I should be able to get the pump to setting III. The only concern I had was possibly burning out the motor if there is too much resistance (with a serious blockage or something). I will do this later.

jimf wrote: »

you need to make sure that the water from the tank in the attic is actually feeding your system

Yeah I found where this pipe comes down so I should be easily able to isolate this and confirm that the water is coming down from the F&E tank.








/

John.G

Can you just confirm the pump model by taking a close up photo of the pump itself, I think you have a Alpha 1 L 65, the 65 or 60 bit is what I am interested in and makes a huge difference to the pump curves.

generalgerry

This is the pump model



Invoice says:
ALPHA1 L 25-65 130 1X230V 50HZ 9H IE

John.G

Just confirm that the new pump is pumping the same way as the old one, downwards??. I would also try and get that red gate valve on the cylinder coil return checked/opened, if you can't turn the handwheel remove it and with a small adjustable spanner try shutting it 1/2 a turn or so then open it fully, about 3 to 5 full turns from shut, shut it fully and reopen it one full turn.

Re your 6.5M pump, it should have plenty of head even at speed setting1 but you can try it on setting2 even though a very high setting which can cause problems but it certainly won't overload the motor.

Your old pump may well have been OK so as suggested, blockage in cold feed or air in system.

Also check for NRV (non return valve) installed below the pump (discharge) or another on the rads supply which may be blocked/restricted with sludge.

spuddy4711

I had the same problem, finally solved by turning all rads off, switching the boiler on, then opening and
closing each of the rads in turn. It was an air lock, took a lot of time to shift. As you try each rad, give time for the hot water to reach that point. If you have plenty of hot water in the hot press, pump is doing it’s job.

John.G

Yes, or shut off both sides of each rad, remove the blank 1/2ins vent plug and flush a litre or two from each side into a bucket.

generalgerry

Well, that was fun.

Stopped both valves, removed the bolts with a bit of difficulty and removed the radiator. It was very clean, no blockage.

I also let some water flow out of the and verified that it replenished by the F&E tank upstairs. So the feed from this is also working.

CoBo55

I'm assuming still no heat? Was there much crud around the isolation valves each side of the pump? Maybe one or both of them didn't open properly after you installed the new pump, that type you have are notoriously troublesome.

Curious_Case

Do you have a dual fuel system by any chance?

Curious_Case

A friend mentioned a situation recently --

The system had two thermostats, one went on and off as required but the other was a backup that needed to be manually reset once it had tripped.

CoBo55

Curious_Case wrote: »

Assuming your copper cylinder is heated indirectly by a coil through which your boiler is pumping hot water then most of the system is working.

I don't think it is heating properly, hot water seems to be rising by gravity from the boiler but not actually circulating through the system.

generalgerry

I'm gonna draw up a diagram of it in photoshop, will post later.

generalgerry

Firstly in the boiler house, I checked the isolation valves above and below the motor and they are both fine. I let a bit of water run from both in to a bucket and there was no issue with flow.


Here is a diagram of the system. I have a little infrared thermometer which I used to take the temperatures of the pipes at points on the system. The ambient temperature is about 14° C

Image attached below. It seems like at that one three way joint in the hot press the heat just stops. (previously the heat had been penetrating up as far as the tank but not now). One side of that joint is hot to touch, on the other sides of the joint it's at room temp above and below..

John.G

Before to do any more check the the arrow on that circ pump, is it pointing up or down?.

Curious_Case

Where does the pipe that connects to the lower inlet/outlet of your copper cylinder's coil go? the coil/element has central heating water running through it, so there should be two connections to your heating system (the lower connection on the other side is cold water in).

You're getting up to speed really fast in analysing your system, maybe let your copper cylinder heat up to "bath ready" via the electric immersion and then turn on your boiler to see if warm water is travelling through the coil (the warm water will have been heated by conduction in the cylinder, NOT by your boiler, but it might tell you what the pumps are doing).

The above might also help determine if there's a blockage or a dry section of pipe.

generalgerry

Circulation pump definitely in the right way, I have photos of the old one to compare. There is no electric immersion connection.

Okay I have added in all the other pipes going to the tank. Obviously these are not how the pipes are physically laid out, but I have traced each pipe and tried to make it fit in a 2D image.

thanks,

punisher5112

Have you balanced the system?


Turn off all rads, the ones nearest the boiler in line won't need to be turned on full.....

The outlet you can also adjust so it's near closed too.....

Close all these 1st then run the system.

The rad that's furthest away or last in line would usually be opened all the way or where you feel is enough and slightly more open on the exit too.....