Single mortgage but partner living in the house

Emma2019

Hi All,

I searched through threads but couldn't find anything on this scenario, but apologies if it has been answered before.

I am buying a house and my partner (not married) will live in it. They will be paying rent but we are not intending on it giving them a stake in the house. Potentially when we are together a few more years we will remortgage and add them to the deeds/mortgage or buy a new house together.

Our plan is to
- Claim rent a room relief on the rent paid
- Sign a basic contract saying that we agree the money paid is rent and is not intended to give them any stake in the house

Is there anything else we can do? Neither of us are the type to make money an issue and even if the relationship did break down I would expect it to be amicable but we want to be prudent anyway.

seannash

I believe that after a certain amount of time any contract you have is basically worthless if the relationship was to dissolve amd she seeks "her share"
My understanding is she is entitled to the rent she paid back as it went off the mortgage.

I have the exact same scenario as you and the mortgage comes out of my account. Everything else is split with no amount of money sent to me as "rent"
Why wouldn't you do the above. I dont think you get any extra protection with your contract.

seannash

seannash wrote: »

I believe that after a certain amount of time any contract you have is basically worthless if the relationship was to dissolve amd she seeks "her share"
My understanding is she is entitled to the rent she paid back as it went off the mortgage.

I have the exact same scenario as you and the mortgage comes out of my account. Everything else is split with no amount of money sent to me as "rent"
Why wouldn't you do the above. I dont think you get any extra protection with your contract.

OP is named Emma, but you assume it's a man who will be buying!
Anyhoo! I believe if you live as a couple that the above is correct, after a certain amount of time your partner would have some rights, but it would depend on a lot of things.
How much they put into the house etc.

On the relationship side of things, I lived in a boyfriends house with him many years ago, paid him some rent. When we broke up, you wouldn't believe the people who told me to go after 'my share'
I didnt, it was very amiable and I wouldn't do that to him. If course, I suppose there's always the chance that I didn't buy with him and only paid rent maybe went towards the break up.......

seannash

bubblypop wrote: »

OP is named Emma, but you assume it's a man who will be buying!

You assmuend sexual preference of the OP similar to me. Could be two women. I never said man in my post.
At the end of the day who cares, if my incorrect assumption offends you I'm not really that bothered

silver2020

bubblypop wrote: »

OP is named Emma, .

Emma's partner may be a girl too and such arrangement was something a relation of mine had (with her female partner) and when the relationship did end there was a lot of arguing about "I contributed to mortgage, so I own x%".

That the house had gone up in value by 30% probably had a bearing.

So doesn't matter what form the couple are, it can become acrimonious and a water-tight fixed term agreement should be in place. I'd suggest 2 years and then revisit it.

If you are in a couple they will have a claim on the property after 5 years, or 1 year if a child is involved.

Gradius

seannash wrote: »

You assmuend sexual preference of the OP similar to me. Could be two women. I never said man in my post.
At the end of the day who cares, if my incorrect assumption offends you I'm not really that bothered

It could also be three goats that self-identify as a single human male that self-identifies as a woman that has a preference for polyamourous multi-goat relationships.

You never know, but it's always worth someone pointing out that you never know. You know?

seannash

Gradius wrote: »

It could also be three goats that self-identify as a single human male that self-identifies as a woman that has a preference for polyamourous multi-goat relationships.

You never know, but it's always worth someone pointing out that you never know. You know?

Or you could just assume no intention to offend was made and say nothing. Or not pull people up if the OP doesn't, they may not carenor be offended. I could have guessed right that it was two women.

Green Mile

I’m about to get into a similar situation as this, haven’t spoken to the banks yet though.
The plan is to buy as a single person even though my girlfriend will be living in the house too.
She has little from a disability income only.

I wonder if I inform the bank and try get a mortgage with her on the deeds, will the bank be more favourable to my application as there are two lives on the policy or would they see her as a dependent, which would hinder my application?

Del2005

Emma2019 wrote: »

Hi All,

I searched through threads but couldn't find anything on this scenario, but apologies if it has been answered before.

I am buying a house and my partner (not married) will live in it. They will be paying rent but we are not intending on it giving them a stake in the house. Potentially when we are together a few more years we will remortgage and add them to the deeds/mortgage or buy a new house together.

Our plan is to
- Claim rent a room relief on the rent paid
- Sign a basic contract saying that we agree the money paid is rent and is not intended to give them any stake in the house

Is there anything else we can do? Neither of us are the type to make money an issue and even if the relationship did break down I would expect it to be amicable but we want to be prudent anyway.

You can't sign away your rights so saying that they are only paying rent won't work. The only way to protect your property is for your partner to contribute zero to it and to split all the other bills evenly.

Once you live together for 5 years, 2 if you have children, they have all the rights of a spouse with none of the protection spouses have.

Everyone thinks that their relationship is special and you will still be friends if you break up, legions of highly paid divorce lawyers proof the opposite.

ongarite

Green Mile wrote: »

I’m about to get into a similar situation as this, haven’t spoken to the banks yet though.
The plan is to buy as a single person even though my girlfriend will be living in the house too.
She has little from a disability income only.

I wonder if I inform the bank and try get a mortgage with her on the deeds, will the bank be more favourable to my application as there are two lives on the policy or would they see her as a dependent, which would hinder my application?

Might be better off on your own if you can afford it.
Your joint mortgage life insurance policy would be greater with your partner on the mortgage deeds due to her disability IMO.

Gradius

seannash wrote: »

Or you could just assume no intention to offend was made and say nothing. Or not pull people up if the OP doesn't, they may not carenor be offended. I could have guessed right that it was two women.

If an offence was hidden beneath a grain of sand in the Gobi desert there are certain people that will go out of their way to find it.

To the OP, time is the issue. It can render all declarations and assurances asunder. It's not the most comfortable knowledge.

I still think it’s better to go it alone if just starting out in a relationship as if it breaks down in the first year or so then there will be no legal issues. Once it passes the 5 years though it’s a different matter then.

Emma2019

We are together a few years already, and live together but wouldn't be at buying together territory. From what I am seeing on the Citizens Advice website is it's not as clear cut as "once you live together for 5 years they get half". Also we wouldn't intend on it being that long a period either.

"If your relationship breaks down and your name is not on the title deeds to the house, you may still be able to show that you have some ownership rights in relation to the house. These rights are based on the fact that you made a contribution to the purchase price of the house with the intention of gaining a share in the ownership of the house.

...

As well as showing that you made a financial contribution to the purchase price of the house, you must also show that your contribution was made with the intention of gaining a share in the ownership of the house and that you were not making a gift of the money to the legal owner of the house."

https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/birth_family_relationships/problems_in_marriages_and_other_relationships/property_rights_and_the_breakdown_of_a_cohabiting_relationship.html

I would think that the contract would demonstrate that the intention was never to make a financial contribution to the purchase of the house

If I don't go down the rent a room route, I am technically avoiding CGT. I'd rather do everything above board.

seannash

seannash wrote: »

You assmuend sexual preference of the OP similar to me. Could be two women. I never said man in my post.
At the end of the day who cares, if my incorrect assumption offends you I'm not really that bothered

Jaysis, it was a joke, relax, I'm not offended. Touchy

Emma2019

Emma2019 wrote: »

We are together a few years already, and live together but wouldn't be at buying together territory. From what I am seeing on the Citizens Advice website is it's not as clear cut as "once you live together for 5 years they get half". Also we wouldn't intend on it being that long a period either.

"If your relationship breaks down and your name is not on the title deeds to the house, you may still be able to show that you have some ownership rights in relation to the house. These rights are based on the fact that you made a contribution to the purchase price of the house with the intention of gaining a share in the ownership of the house.

...

As well as showing that you made a financial contribution to the purchase price of the house, you must also show that your contribution was made with the intention of gaining a share in the ownership of the house and that you were not making a gift of the money to the legal owner of the house."

https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/birth_family_relationships/problems_in_marriages_and_other_relationships/property_rights_and_the_breakdown_of_a_cohabiting_relationship.html

I would think that the contract would demonstrate that the intention was never to make a financial contribution to the purchase of the house

If I don't go down the rent a room route, I am technically avoiding CGT. I'd rather do everything above board.

Do you mean that he would be selling again within 5 and a half years? Or just that you would hope to buy together within that time?
You already live together, you're together a few years already, you plan to buy together in a few years.
Why not wait, till you both are happy to buy together?
Or is that you want to buy now, and your partner doesnt?

grassylawn

I'm married and have a kid. I paid the deposit and all the mortgage so far. I wanted a single mortgage as this was always going to be the case. I found that this wasn't an option.

Afaik the situation is pretty much the same once you've lived together five years. First thing you should do is find out if a single mortgage is even an option for you.

Bio Mech

Writing a contract doesn’t change the facts though really. You admit they are paying you “rent” and if it’s a fixed payment every month it would be obvious that’s what it really is. Regardless of what you put in the contract. If it’s a “gift” then there could be tax implications on that.

If you are going to take the rent from the partner then you either have to keep that arrangement shorter than 5 years or else take the chance that it won’t get messy if it goes beyond that.

The contract won’t change anything.

Maybe spend a couple of hundred and go speak to a solicitor?

seannash

They dont get half but they can be reimbursed for "rent" they paid over the years as it contributed to the mortgage.
Contract doesn't mean anything after a while as many have said.

Del2005

seannash wrote: »

They dont get half but they can be reimbursed for "rent" they paid over the years as it contributed to the mortgage.
Contract doesn't mean anything after a while as many have said.

If they live together for 5 years at €500pm rent then the OP would be on the hook for €30k. Nut half the house but still a substantial sum of money to pay.

Emma2019

This question might have been better suited to the Legal forum as most of the responses seem to be in disagreement with what I have seen on various legal sites and from actually reading the Civil Partnership and Certain Rights and Obligations of Cohabitants Act 2010 - Particularly section 202.

In the interests of anyone reading the thread in future

- You can make a cohabitants agreement which deals with division of property on break up
- In this you can agree that neither will request an order to have property conferred
- You just need to both have had separate legal advice before signing.
- Usually some form of financial dependence would have to be demonstrated anyway, it's not a case that you just get the rent you paid back.


Thanks for the replies anyway, I think we're sorted as we are.

alwald

Out of curiosity, is rent paid the only contribution that can be taken into consideration in case of a separation? Can other contributions be considered?
If the mortgage owner is paying his/her mortgage and the cohabitant is paying for the food/bills can this be taken into consideration?

Emma2019

In the absence of the agreement they look at lots of different things. The list is here: http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2010/act/24/section/173/enacted/en/html#sec173

One is "any contributions made by either of them in looking after the home" which could potentially include food and bills. I had read that case law shows that giving up your job to look after kids/the home is not sufficient grounds but I don't know the particulars of the case.

If you're already together for a few years and not ready to buy together - or are already thinking of how to protect your assets if you break up down the road, then maybe you're not in the right relationship.

Nozebleed

OP i hate to say it but...i will..your relationship is doomed.

you seem to be very protective of your own self interest..more concerned about you and your property/money than you are about your partner. no offence intended. i dont blame o be honest we've all seen how poorly men have been treated and continue to be treated when it comes to the family home etc.

grassylawn

Nozebleed wrote: »

OP i hate to say it but...i will..your relationship is doomed.

you seem to be very protective of your own self interest..more concerned about you and your property/money than you are about your partner. no offence intended. i dont blame o be honest we've all seen how poorly men have been treated and continue to be treated when it comes to the family home etc.

Her relationship isnt "doomed" because she doesn't want to give her boyfriend half of an asset that probably embodies the vast majority of her personal wealth. Hysterical nonsense to suggest otherwise and these posts serve no purpose other than to snipe at someone asking a straightforward question.

grassylawn

grassylawn wrote: »

Her relationship isnt "doomed" because she doesn't want to give her boyfriend half of an asset that probably embodies the vast majority of her personal wealth. Hysterical nonsense to suggest otherwise and these posts serve no purpose other than to snipe at someone asking a straightforward question.

But there is some issue, according to the OP, they are together a few years, they live together now, they plan to buy together within 5 years.
The OP hasn't explained why she needs to buy now and their partner rent from them.
Even financially, buying again within 5 years may not make sense.

grassylawn

bubblypop wrote: »

But there is some issue, according to the OP, they are together a few years, they live together now, they plan to buy together within 5 years.
The OP hasn't explained why she needs to buy now and their partner rent from them.
Even financially, buying again within 5 years may not make sense.

No idea, but I know it's none of my business. She asked a technical question. She didn't invite commentary on her personal life.

Nozebleed

grassylawn wrote: »

Her relationship isnt "doomed" because she doesn't want to give her boyfriend half of an asset that probably embodies the vast majority of her personal wealth. Hysterical nonsense to suggest otherwise and these posts serve no purpose other than to snipe at someone asking a straightforward question.

all im saying is..if the OP finds the idea of having to share an asset such as a house with her partner some time down the line, how does someone thinking along these lines consider sharing a child!! should they have children..and seperate. just break up now..

Mrs OBumble

Nozebleed wrote: »

all im saying is..if the OP finds the idea of having to share an asset such as a house with her partner some time down the line, how does someone thinking along these lines consider sharing a child!! should they have children..and seperate. just break up now..

You have no idea of her age or childbearing status.

If I buy a house, it will be on the same basis the OP is considering, because my partner has very limited earning capacity: if he wasn't living with me he would be getting a nice chunk off welfare every week.

Wanting my assets to go to my neices and nephews when I die isn't selfish, it's realistic: my partner would simply drink them.

Mrs OBumble

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

You have no idea of her age or childbearing status.

If I buy a house, it will be on the same basis the OP is considering, because my partner has very limited earning capacity: if he wasn't living with me he would be getting a nice chunk off welfare every week.

Wanting my assets to go to my neices and nephews when I die isn't selfish, it's realistic: my partner would simply drink them.

But she plans on buying with her partner within 5 years, so none of those issues for her.

Nozebleed

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

You have no idea of her age or childbearing status.

If I buy a house, it will be on the same basis the OP is considering, because my partner has very limited earning capacity: if he wasn't living with me he would be getting a nice chunk off welfare every week.

Wanting my assets to go to my neices and nephews when I die isn't selfish, it's realistic: my partner would simply drink them.

not sure why your brining up your personal life..but maybe you should talk to your partner about his drinking problem..or maybe dont...i know of a guy who started to drink heavily because his partner continuously mad him feel undervalued. it destroyed their relationship.

ebayissues

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2058144543

Mrs OBumble

Nozebleed wrote: »

not sure why your brining up your personal life..but maybe you should talk to your partner about his drinking problem..or maybe dont...i know of a guy who started to drink heavily because his partner continuously mad him feel undervalued. it destroyed their relationship.

This thread isn't about me. But everyone has different circumstances. We cannot assume anything about the OPs situation - including that her partner will be able to contribute and therefore be entitle to anything if there's a breakup.

CosmicFool

Can you afford to pay the mortgage yourself? Get your partner to put the rent money into a completely different account and not an account that you will be paying the mortgage from. Use this account then for purchases other than the mortgage ie. Holidays etc

CollyFlower

It seems very complicated to have your partner moving in if things go tits-up. Just live on your own for now.. Avail of the rent a room scheam.. Then when you're ready to buy together go for it..

dubrov

I'm fairness, relationship commitment normally comes in stages. These days most people don't want to commit to marriage until they have lived with someone.

Why should committing to living together automatically mean sharing of all assets?

dubrov

dubrov wrote: »

I'm fairness, relationship commitment normally comes in stages. These days most people don't want to commit to marriage until they have lived with someone.

Why should committing to living together automatically mean sharing of all assets?

It doesn't have to, but in this case, they already live together and plan to buy a house together within 5 years, so wouldn't it make sense to just wait?

dubrov

bubblypop wrote:

It doesn't have to, but in this case, they already live together and plan to buy a house together within 5 years, so wouldn't it make sense to just wait?

There are likely considerable savings moving in together. They could be saving over 1000 per month which adds up to quite a bit over 5 years

Yourmama

It's an interesting topic, so my take here is that after certain time contract has zero bearing. If I'm renting a room to a stranger for 5 years, they can claim a share of my house? Or, if it was a relationship indeed, can I say it was nothing beyond friends and you can't have a share, considering there was a contract and "rent" paid?

Emma2019

dubrov wrote: »

I'm fairness, relationship commitment normally comes in stages. These days most people don't want to commit to marriage until they have lived with someone.

Why should committing to living together automatically mean sharing of all assets?

Pretty much this. We live together but aren't at the buying a house together stage. We may be in the future, but relationships don't always work out, it would be naive to think they do.

Waiting to buy a house would be a significant cost given the rental market at the moment and the impact of having to get a shorter mortgage based on my age etc. It would literally make no sense to wait on the basis of the chance the relationship will work out, even though we both think it will.

So given that I am buying a house, we both just want to be prudent even though the idea that one of us would try and go after the assets of another is completely alien and beyond unlikely.

Maybe the mods would like to lock this thread as it's gone very off topic with both reflections on my relationship and incorrect legal advice. I'll just double check things with my solicitor.

Thanks all.

witchgirl26

Nozebleed wrote: »

all im saying is..if the OP finds the idea of having to share an asset such as a house with her partner some time down the line, how does someone thinking along these lines consider sharing a child!! should they have children..and seperate. just break up now..

That is over simplfying things to a massive extent. My partner bought a house when we were living together and I wasn't involved in the purchase (on the mortgage or deeds). Less than 5 years later, we did buy a house together and we are happy with a child. The reason for the first house purchase without me was that I did not have enough savings behind me to contribute to the purchase and would have been considered a "burden" per the bank and therefore reduce the amount my partner could get. It made much more sense for him to buy as an individual. And yes, as such you have to plan for all potential future events such as the possibility that the relationship will break down and you will have to deal with the issues around the house. It's being quite smart. Plan for it, but hoping that it doesn't happen. My brother & sister in law did the same when buying a house together before they were married - solicitor advised them to draw up agreements in relation to what would happen should they split. They never needed it but it was there in case.

Anyway, OP as others have said, your partner would have some rights over the house if they are paying rent which then goes towards the mortgage. It also is that you can't just kick them out (if you do break up) but that they are granted reasonable time to find a new place to live. Additionally my understanding is that you can't claim the rent a room relief if you are in a relationship with the person who is paying in the money.

The bank may ask if you are in a relationship and if so, how long are you together & if you are living together. This happened to my partner and we had been living together for 2 years at that point. The bank just wanted to verify who might have an interest in the property. I filled out a form that stated my income etc and that was it. And the 5 years is from when you start living together, not when you are just a couple.

Emma2019

Just to clarify, the exclusions from rent a room relief would only apply to

- Your child or civil partner
- An Employer
- Short term guests (Air BnB etc)

So rent a room relief will be fine in our case.

https://www.revenue.ie/en/personal-tax-credits-reliefs-and-exemptions/land-and-property/rent-a-room-relief/what-conditions-must-be-met.aspx

Eric Cartman

Is there any way to ensure a partner can make no claim. Is there any way to maintain complete ownership of your assets for life (no kids involved obviously) beyond staying single.

ELM327

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Is there any way to ensure a partner can make no claim. Is there any way to maintain complete ownership of your assets for life (no kids involved obviously) beyond staying single.

No.


Welcome to big government.

Eric Cartman

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Is there any way to ensure a partner can make no claim. Is there any way to maintain complete ownership of your assets for life (no kids involved obviously) beyond staying single.

Don't cohabitate.

One of my brother's and his girlfriend have been together for 15+ years, but have never lived together.

Her properties (she has more than one) are willed to her nieces, and his is willed to his children by a former relationship.

It works for them, and they're very happy.

witchgirl26

Emma2019 wrote: »

Just to clarify, the exclusions from rent a room relief would only apply to

- Your child or civil partner
- An Employer
- Short term guests (Air BnB etc)

So rent a room relief will be fine in our case.

https://www.revenue.ie/en/personal-tax-credits-reliefs-and-exemptions/land-and-property/rent-a-room-relief/what-conditions-must-be-met.aspx

Ah fair enough. I haven't looked at that element for a long while now.

Emma2019

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Is there any way to ensure a partner can make no claim. Is there any way to maintain complete ownership of your assets for life (no kids involved obviously) beyond staying single.

Yes there is.

Per the Civil Partnership and Certain Rights and Obligations of Cohabitants Act 2010 (Section 202), a cohabitation agreement protects the assets from any order being made for access to the assets by a cohabitant. The order is binding once both parties have separate legal advice before signing.

The agreement can only be set aside where the courts feel it would do a "serious injustice".

In general getting access to your assets only happens where the cohabitant is financially dependent on you (assuming no kids). If you both have jobs you can live off there should never be an issue.

Source: http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2010/act/24/section/202/enacted/en/html#sec202

Eric Cartman

Emma2019 wrote: »

Yes there is.

Per the Civil Partnership and Certain Rights and Obligations of Cohabitants Act 2010 (Section 202), a cohabitation agreement protects the assets from any order being made for access to the assets by a cohabitant. The order is binding once both parties have separate legal advice before signing.

The agreement can only be set aside where the courts feel it would do a "serious injustice".

In general getting access to your assets only happens where the cohabitant is financially dependent on you (assuming no kids). If you both have jobs you can live off there should never be an issue.

Source: http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2010/act/24/section/202/enacted/en/html#sec202

This is the quandary though, lets say you, a lad inherrit your fathers business and land , lets say at a nominal 2 million quid, youre co habiting with a woman who just happens to leave her job, you dont realise whats up and 6 months down the line shes been living off you, you tell her she’s gone and there you are in court ‘ your honour, he was supporting my life and i have nothing he has 2 million quid of assets and a thriving business’ , i doubt you’d find a judge in the land that would listen to any signed order and rightly tell her to jog on with nothing.

Emma2019

She would have to be financially dependent on you, not just "left her job for a bit"

The right to sign the agreement is enshrined in the actual legislation. Judge's can't ignore legislation, they can only make judgements on the intent of the legislation and the circumstances of the case. If she had separate legal advice and still signed the agreement, she will be held to it regardless of her circumstances, unless it would cause serious injustice.