My 16kWp Domestic System

graememk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119549846#Comment_119549846

Running about 2.7k now, (buy in dollars, Ali express exchange rate is brutal)

Phase 4 has started.. for ones that know, know.

mp3guy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119547038#Comment_119547038

Off-grid is about as useful for people to consider as domestic wind is. Only for extreme hobbyists willing to lose time, money and convenience. Nothing wrong with it, people spend stupid money on other kinds of wild lifestyles.

bullit_dodger

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119551331#Comment_119551331

Yup. You + me = same page mp3guy. :-)

It's "technically" doable, but not without some serious outlay of wonga for marginal benefits for the environment (infact it may even be negative benefit as you have to so overprovision your panels to cover the rubbish days and panels aren't without some environmental cost)....

Hardly seems worth it, just so you can tick a box that your off grid, but it's a question of values ultimately.

slave1

It’s doable without having an EV over Winter but would require a generator over Winter, April to September very achievable for <€20k

ELM327

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119549846#Comment_119549846

That and the panels too. The cost isnt the issue here. I'm quite ham fisted so wouldnt necessarily be looking to DIY much, and I am aware I'm paying extra €€ for that.

My next add on (another 8kWp, 20kWh, + second inverter) I may try DIY it. But that won't be this year.

unkel

@ELM327 - If you might try DIY your next setup (and have a look at the forum, a lot of people with zero experience in this have done it before and got a lot of help on the forum), may I suggest you go for a small battery first? You will save a lot of money and you won't fall into the trap of having a system that will simply never pay for itself. That would be a waste, wouldn't it? Just go get one 5kWh module instead of 4

slave1

I agree, but you got to look at your life too, I've sooooooo much going on (DIY'ing a second array/all other work/life stuff) that my 20kWh battery pack from Ali Express is with me 9months and not installed yet (but getting closer.....)

ELM327

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119552349#Comment_119552349

Arah at this stage I'd have to ask for money back if I was to do that, I've already paid most of the amount and the install is on Monday next. It's a sunk cost (fallacy?!) at this point. I intend to DIY in the future too but I'm aiming big so whether it's 5kWh or 20kWh now I'm still going to need a lot more kWp and kWh in the future anyway. I've been watching youtubes of american off grid setups with 50+kWp. I have the space so I'm considering doing it here and to get to that level it's going to require doing some DIY.

I have seen the threads here and am learning so much that I have to read and reread some threads a few times. Very helpful resource, this site and the FB group

unkel

I know you have the money for it and once you decide, that's it. But it's a shame that you didn't do a bit more research / ask questions here first. A lot of us were in your position a good few years ago and some of use have made similar mistakes. Any time I look on some of the Irish facebook groups I have to facepalm on the amounts of money people spend on setups that should only have cost a fraction of what they paid. Great for the installers' pockets of course. But not good when it comes to pay back time. Many systems installed in Ireland will never pay for themselves. What's the point of that?

mp3guy

Hey folks. Not much to report as of late, when it comes to domestic solar I effectively "completed it, mate". No upgrades in scope (maybe in a few years I'll squeeze another 10-12 panels on and upgrade an inverter).

Have some annual stats to share that people might find interesting:

So the energy price increases have largely "benefited" me in terms of decreased time to break even. Unfortunately still getting skewered by deemed export on Energia on the day/night meter, but things are changing in the next few months at home with a heat pump incoming to soak up anything I'm exporting (both for heating and cooling).

Also upgrading my MIC to something very fun... more on that later. Ended up foregoing NC7 too, wasn't worth it.

unkel

Thanks for the update!

It's less than 2.5 years since you started this thread and I admit at the time I thought you were going OTT. I don't think that anymore, in fact I'm now very similar in size, which is crazy as I have a very modest size semi-detached house in a Dublin suburb. Also complete here, except for the heat pump heating to replace my gas boiler probably later this year or next year.

I'm not that much into the reporting side of things, or even doing pay back period calculations, but I do know that since some time in May, I have not bought any electricity from the grid really and that includes all electricity in the house, 2 EVs, all my hotwater and even a bit of crypto mining. Have exported little to nothing thanks to my very large DIY battery setup

idc

Still surprised how your setup is actually compliant with esbn rules given the following

https://www.esbnetworks.ie/docs/default-source/publications/conditions-governing-the-connection-and-operation-of-micro-generation-policy.pdf?sfvrsn=fdcb2515_17

and most specifically the second line.

mp3guy

All I know is that I contracted my well established installer with design, certification, notification, compliance and sign off at the time of install (Nov 2020/Apr 2021). SEAI visited, ESBN have been here two or three times to look at voltage issues, and ESBN were notified during NC6 and the partial NC7 application.

icylava

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119531118#Comment_119531118

Are you saying that even with an NC7 application on a single phase, there are no inverters in the market to export more than 6kW? I thought NC7 allows up to 17kVA on single-phase

graememk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121201245#Comment_121201245

As a single inverter, none on the Irish market, but you could import a sunsynk from the UK.

To get more you can just have multiple inverters

icylava

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119546666#Comment_119546666

I can't stand wasting any electricity generated from solar.... so I need to get onto NC7...

unkel

There's a 16kW single phase Sunsynk / Deye available now. Want 😎

slave1

Just the one😎

unkel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121202139#Comment_121202139

If I had a 3ph 80A per phase connection, I'd want 3. And I would duly submit an NC8. And retire on the income of my semi-commercial solar PV mini farm 😁

mp3guy

Looks like just 2 MPPT though?

unkel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121202446#Comment_121202446

3

And they are all "double" as you can parallel your input strings into them

Here's the spec sheet:

https://www.deyeinverter.com/deyeinverter/2023/07/31/datasheet_sun-(12-16k)k-sg01lp1-eu_230731_en.pdf

mp3guy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121202628#Comment_121202628

What does that mean? Can you have 6 aspects?

mp3guy

Either way, 3 would suit me perfectly. Hopefully this and future hardware are available in years time when I want to upgrade. A big battery behind that would be great, and up to 13kW back up power wow!

unkel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121202662#Comment_121202662

Well, 3 MPPTs, so not really optimal for 6 different aspects. Do you have 6 different aspects? 😶

The high amperage means you could have i.e. two 500V strings West, two 500V strings East and two 500V strings South, all twos paralleled. Like 72 panels all performing to their max MPPT power on this single inverter. This is immense.

mp3guy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120974168#Comment_120974168

Alright, the wheels are finally turning:

That's right, upgrading to 29kVa MIC on single phase. Once this is in I'll be applying for full whack 17kW NC7.

graememk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121263583#Comment_121263583

What's the tails requirements for the 29? 35mm²?

It will be about 140-150ish amps?

How big are you planning on going with solar? As export limiting is allowed with the nc7 you could over spec everything and export limit down to 17

mp3guy

Tails are 35mm² indeed.

It'll be a 125A MCB on the consumer unit and a 160A fuse at the meter.

Actually not planning to go much bigger at the moment, I have a bit of space but I might wait until current kit pays off (9 more years) before upgrading/changing.

slave1

Are you anywhere near NC4?

mp3guy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121263901#Comment_121263901

Unmetered public lighting? Nowhere near.

graememk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121263977#Comment_121263977

I think he meant NC8! But the Max on that is also 17kva (72 amps) for single phase

unkel

No doubt you mentioned it before @mp3guy, but was your current kVA connection? And how much is it costing to upgrade?

Didn't know max export was 17kW on single phase NC7, I had it in my head is was only 11kW

mp3guy

Currently 12kVA according to the ESB, but my meter fuse is 80A and my MCB is 63A whatever that implies.

This is costing €4k, as part of a larger building project I'm undertaking at home. I'm rural, and the transformer is right on my doorstep, and I'm the only property on it.

graememk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121264309#Comment_121264309

12kva has a consumer 63amp mcb and an 80 amp esbn fuse

mp3guy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121264329#Comment_121264329

Cheers. Found it on page 4 here also now https://safeelectric.ie/contractors/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2019/07/July-2019-Newsletter-Final.pdf

unkel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121264309#Comment_121264309

You probably needed the upgraded tails as I presuming you're going all electric to future proof your home? €4k isn't the worst, you're effectively doubling the power. If you can go 29kVA single phase, it's hardly worthwile trying to go 3 phase. Although the idea of 22kW EV charging that you can easily and cheaply do on 3 phase is sweet 😁

What plans do you have for your electricity provider and do you mind sharing how big your battery is (or will be) and how powerful your battery inverter?

Jonathan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121264467#Comment_121264467

Get a phase converter and you still can have 22kW charging 😉

mp3guy

Yeah, will be all electric in good time. 16kVA wasn't enough for what was required, 20kVA barely and if you're going for 20, which is already the "next grade up" above "enhanced" 16, might as well just get 29 while at it and max out single phase. Nearest three phase is a km or two away.

Not sure about provider, surprisingly I'll still be classed a "domestic" and not business so I can pretty much go with whoever, though I'll be restricted to a 24h meter for the short term. ESBN got on to me about replacing my day/night with a smart meter and when I told them I was going up to 29kVA they said smart meters of that capacity are due in 2024, we'll see about that.

My battery is still just 18.9kWh behind a 5kW inverter. I'll definitely consider going for that 13kW beast once things are approaching break even point.

unkel

24h meter is nasty just going into winter season with very little PV output even from a large setup, but I suppose you had that last year too. I suppose you do get deemed export though, which is good in winter, that eases the pain a little bit

Be careful about break even calculations though. Waiting for the current system to pay off before investing in bigger can be a false economy. With extremely generous FITs now standard, you will make a fortune if you can feed it all back into the grid. Once you get a smart meter, make sure to get as many people on the bill as possible, it's €400 per person per year income tax exempt

KCross

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121264329#Comment_121264329

It seems that is inconsistent. I’ve the enhanced 16kVA connection and I’ve an 80A fuse in the meter box.

I questioned ESB on it and they said that’s what’s required. 🤷‍♂️

To have the 100A fuse you need a different fuse holder as the fuse is a physically different size/shape. If the fuse holder has “60A/80A“ written on it then the max you can have is the 80A fuse.

unkel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121265581#Comment_121265581

I just hope you didn't pay extra for a 16kVA connection over a 12kVA connection, because you got the latter 😂

graememk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121265581#Comment_121265581

When I had mine upgraded, they didnt change the head but did say they put in a 100Amp fuse. But its the 60/80 head.

The MCB should trip before the fuse would blow anyway.

curioustony

I wonder if ESBN would do an NC7 without any works or upgrades purely to allow the user to have a larger inverter/storage with export limiting.

My thinking would be to have battery big enough to cover one to two days of winter HP with inverter that will comfortably cover domestic load.

Would also ease the time restrictions for EV charging during the good solar months.

Assumes a decent off peak (whatever the suppliers call it) rate.

The alternate is to have a second system that is effectively export isolated from the grid, that sounds more complex and inflexible than it should be. €1000 to ESBN for export limiting might well be worth it in this scenario. Thoughts?

KCross

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121265610#Comment_121265610

I regularly use 70-80A and no fuse blown yet in 10+ yrs so that would suggest I have what I asked for.

Even if there was a 100A fuse in the meter you wouldn’t be able to utilise it.

unkel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121266510#Comment_121266510

I have the standard 12kVA connection, 63A fuse in the CU and 80A fuse in the ESB meter box. It lets me draw near 15kW constant (63A). Have seen it go over a bit for a few seconds, but not much. But I suspect that is the 63A grid limit that I have set in the Myenergi appliances, rather than the max my connection can actually do before the CU fuse blows 😁

Maybe I should set the Myenergi to 70A and see what happens 😀

Why are you saying you wouldn't be able to utilise 100A? I could easily utilise well over 100A. If my connection had it, I would use it.

KCross

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121266619#Comment_121266619

Why are you saying you wouldn't be able to utilise 100A? I could easily utilise well over 100A. If my connection had it, I would use it.

Your wiring and CU fuse would be 80A. You wouldn’t be able to go to 100A as your CU fuse would trip first.

unkel

Ah got you. I thought you meant that if you did have a proper 100A connection, you somehow wouldn't be able to use it.

jasgrif11

I was doing a little experiment overnight, charging my car and battery during a 4-hour window to see if the Energia Smart Drive plan would work for me before moving forward.

I noticed that I seem to max out at 12kW between battery charging, car charging, heat-pump and general house supply (which would be low between 2-4am). I'm 90% sure I have a 16 kVA supply (fuse in meter box says 60/80 Series 7).

The test result is that my car only added 20kWh instead of 28kWh (7kW X 4 hours). This is a result of my battery charging at 5kw and my heat pump at 4kw (it spikes every 30 mins during the night).

Before I go 100% confirming with the ESB on my supply, could it be that my Zappi thinks I have a 12kVA supply or is that not even a thing?

Ignore beyond 6am as I indeed did start the car charging again

graememk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121326865#Comment_121326865

Your main fuse in your consumer unit needs to be an 80amp for a 16kva supply.

curioustony

On the energia plan, remember to check for fair use limits. It works well for me, no EV and I'm on the older version of that plan with 4 rates. The newer one has 2 I think so the jump if you exceed limits is penal, assuming it still has them

Jonathan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121326938#Comment_121326938

The overage is no longer penal. Goes from 8.15c to 9.38c