McWilliams > Ireland has too many stockbrokers and lawyers, not enough engineers

worded

I have a lot of respect for anyone creative, making or fixing something ...

I agree with McWilliams.

http://www.davidmcwilliams.ie/2018-articles/

ulster

worded wrote: »

I have a lot of respect for anyone creative, making or fixing something ...

I agree with McWilliams.

http://www.davidmcwilliams.ie/2018-articles/

Didn't Stripe create like 1000 jobs there lately. Who knows where they're gonna live but like that's another story.

There are loads of tech startups out there.

0lddog

McWilliams engineer = male in oily boiler suit with a couple of screwdrivers hanging out of back pocket ?

Does he think the engineers in 'tech town' count as real engineers ?

Hyperbollix

Obvious statement is obvious. One thing you can be certain of, there will always be too many lawyers / stockbrokers / financial "wizards"

timmyntc

It's true of most of the world tbh.

In any company, there are almost as many HR/legal/finance types as there are people making the actual "product" for the company.

completedit

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E3s-qZsjK8I&t=183s

JupiterKid

Yep, would completely agree with McWilliams on this one.

I think this is the result of Business and Law college courses being very in vogue and popular in the 1990s and 2000s - and Engineering and the “hard” sciences being much less popular with students back then. This was predicted and warned about back then, too.

Also not enough apprentices in services such as plumbing, bricklaying, plastering etc. as the powers that be have pushed degree courses over those with less formal academic elements.

worded

completedit wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E3s-qZsjK8I&t=183s

Very funny fellow

Ubbquittious

It pays better to become a nothing-doer behind a desk than be an engineer in most cases.


Sometimes wish I had become a nothing-doer. Would have been so much easier

completedit

Most people don't have the smarts to create in the way McWilliams wants but I suppose his POV is that these smart people go into non productive sectors. I personally believe that the types of people who 'create' are not the types of people who excel in places like stockbroking firms.

Yurt2

completedit wrote: »

Most people don't have the smarts to create in the way McWilliams wants but I suppose his POV is that these smart people go into non productive sectors. I personally believe that the types of people who 'create' are not the types of people who excel in places like stockbroking firms.

It's known that our best maths graduates get hoovered up by the likes of Paddy Power in their graduate schemes. What a depressing outcome to see our brightest diverted into not only an 'industry' that's part of the unproductive sector of the economy, but an actual extremely harmful corner of it at that.

completedit

It's actually a huge problem. Because we value personal wealth creation so much it makes it appear that desired outcomes are achieved. The smartest people therefore end up working in places which create no value but any detractors can easily be discredited by those in the winners club as losers.

0lddog

0lddog wrote: »

McWilliams engineer = male in oily boiler suit with a couple of screwdrivers hanging out of back pocket ?

Does he think the engineers in 'tech town' count as real engineers ?

I suppose he does.

Zebra3

JupiterKid wrote: »

Yep, would completely agree with McWilliams on this one.

I think this is the result of Business and Law college courses being very in vogue and popular in the 1990s and 2000s - and Engineering and the “hard” sciences being much less popular with students back then. This was predicted and warned about back then, too.

Also not enough apprentices in services such as plumbing, bricklaying, plastering etc. as the powers that be have pushed degree courses over those with less formal academic elements.

Very much a snob attitude out there that people want their kids to go to college.

whisky_galore

Stockbrokers and esp. lawyers are parasites on society anyhow.

JupiterKid

JupiterKid wrote: »

I think this is the result of Business and Law college courses being very in vogue and popular in the 1990s and 2000s - and Engineering and the “hard” sciences being much less popular with students back then. This was predicted and warned about back then, too.

I don't remember them not being fashionable but places were artificially constrained in Universities. Engineering was a hard course to get in to and now with no visa restraints the sector is not desirable as you can't earn a salary which equals the effort and sacrifice required.

whisky_galore

whisky_galore wrote: »

Stockbrokers and esp. lawyers are parasites on society anyhow.

Meh, easy to knock lawyers but you live in a free society because of the law. The government can't just lock you up or seize your property because there's people out there who know the law and are willing to vindicate your rights.

Law is one of the greatest human constructs, probably just after language imo. It means that no matter who you are, you have the same rights as anyone else. That's a radical concept. I'm not aware of any other primate where all members of the tribe (or troop) are considered equals. Everything that makes life worthwhile and allows us express higher functions such as art and music are underpinned by the laws that bind society cohesively. Sure it's abused but in theory it's a truly beautiful thing. Hard to record an album like Abbey Road if you're worried a local lord is going to seize your crops and force your son into fighting in some bull**** land-grab war etc.

Ubbquittious

What does David McWilliams do?

Does he reverse engineer Stealth bombers for the US airforce? Does he build nucular power stations? Or perhaps does he pull out his Chinese-made laptop in Starbucks in order to tweet and watch cat videos?

0lddog

0lddog wrote: »

McWilliams engineer = male in oily boiler suit with a couple of screwdrivers hanging out of back pocket ?

Does he think the engineers in 'tech town' count as real engineers ?

They’re not really. Admin staff would be a better description.

I see sheep

Deleted User wrote: »

Meh, easy to knock lawyers but you live in a free society because of the law. The government can't just lock you up or seize your property because there's people out there who know the law and are willing to vindicate your rights.

Law is one of the greatest human constructs, probably just after language imo. It means that no matter who you are, you have the same rights as anyone else. That's a radical concept. I'm not aware of any other primate where all members of the tribe (or troop) are considered equals. Everything that makes life worthwhile and allows us express higher functions such as art and music are underpinned by the laws that bind society cohesively. Sure it's abused but in theory it's a truly beautiful thing. Hard to record an album like Abbey Road if you're worried a local lord is going to seize your crops and force your son into fighting in some bull**** land-grab war etc.

Is this a wind up?

I see sheep

I see sheep wrote: »

Is this a wind up?

Absolutely not. We have struggled for thousands of years to this point in legal history where everyone in Ireland has individual rights respected by the State and protectable by the Courts. Easy to be tired of legal certainty in a country that guarantees it but we are very lucky to live here in this point in legal history. Loads of studies show that societies prosper when rule of law is reliable.

Next time you hear of a spouse being beaten or an employee bullied, reflect on how lucky we are to live in a time when they have rights. Hell, there's religious groups beheading 11 year olds in Mozambique atm, that's pretty unlikely to happen here any time soon. Law is a beautiful thing, often abused, but no less beautiful for it.

buried

Deleted User wrote: »

Absolutely not. We have struggled for thousands of years to this point in legal history where everyone in Ireland has individual rights respected by the State and protectable by the Courts. Easy to be tired of legal certainty in a country that guarantees it but we are very lucky to live here in this point in legal history. Loads of studies show that societies prosper when rule of law is reliable.

Next time you hear of a spouse being beaten or an employee bullied, reflect on how lucky we are to live in a time when they have rights. Hell, there's religious groups beheading 11 year olds in Mozambique atm, that's pretty unlikely to happen here any time soon. Law is a beautiful thing, often abused, but no less beautiful for it.

Not on this island Harvey, we had the Brehon laws here which were unparalleled in the dealings of individual rights up until the French Norman warlords were invited here by a disgruntled traitor to trample their pirate boots all over us.

And what of the current law racket? It's whole ethos is to create its own economy of habitual offenders continuously coming in and out of its doors facilitating the 'free legal aid' money tree that the majority of law abiding citizens have to fork out for.

buried

buried wrote: »

Not on this island Harvey, we had the Brehon laws here which were unparalleled in the dealings of individual rights up until the French Norman warlords were invited here by a disgruntled traitor to trample their pirate boots all over us.

And what of the current law racket? It's whole ethos is to create its own economy of habitual offenders continuously coming in and out of its doors facilitating the 'free legal aid' money tree that the majority of law abiding citizens have to fork out for.

The demise of Brehon law (an interesting topic tbf) supports my point though. We were invaded by a group who didn't share our laws and imposed their laws on us by force. That is virtually inconceivable now.

In places like South Sudan, local warlords impose their own private laws on areas at a whim in this day and age. Much like the Mozambique example above, that is unlikely to happen in Ireland.

I am biased, being a solicitor, but over the years I have had different clients who were raped, sexually abused by family members and who suffered gross medical negligence, let alone the clients who had run of mill problems like being beaten at home or bullied at work. I enjoy getting these people out of desperate situations, it's a privilege. I am very aware lots of the rights we take for granted were hard won, and very often, recently won.

I've rarely handled criminal cases, most solicitors don't. The entire system (like family law) needs an overhaul but I'll promise you it's a great feeling to get an abused person protection from the Court. As I said, it's a privilege.

I see sheep

Deleted User wrote: »

Absolutely not. We have struggled for thousands of years to this point in legal history where everyone in Ireland has individual rights respected by the State and protectable by the Courts. Easy to be tired of legal certainty in a country that guarantees it but we are very lucky to live here in this point in legal history. Loads of studies show that societies prosper when rule of law is reliable.

Next time you hear of a spouse being beaten or an employee bullied, reflect on how lucky we are to live in a time when they have rights. Hell, there's religious groups beheading 11 year olds in Mozambique atm, that's pretty unlikely to happen here any time soon. Law is a beautiful thing, often abused, but no less beautiful for it.

What's any of that got to do with lawyers?

buried

Deleted User wrote: »

The demise of Brehon law (an interesting topic tbf) supports my point though. We were invaded by a group who didn't share our laws and imposed their laws on us by force. That is virtually inconceivable now.

In places like South Sudan, local warlords impose their own private laws on areas at a whim in this day and age. Much like the Mozambique example above, that is unlikely to happen in Ireland.

I am biased, being a solicitor, but over the years I have had different clients who were raped, sexually abused by family members and who suffered gross medical negligence, let alone the clients who had run of mill problems like being beaten at home or bullied at work. I enjoy getting these people out of desperate situations, it's a privilege. I am very aware lots of the rights we take for granted were hard won, and very often, recently won.

I've rarely handled criminal cases, most solicitors don't. The entire system (like family law) needs an overhaul but I'll promise you it's a great feeling to get an abused person protection from the Court. As I said, it's a privilege.

Well that's fair enough you doing good work like that, that is totally commendable and everybody including me will thank you for doing such actual proper work to utilize your skills and knowledge for the ultimate societal good like you have described. I know its a good feeling actually helping and being true to somebody else's bad situation. Its the only real happiness anybody can truly feel IMO, because it is right.

Stovepipe

Well,that "privilege" costs a lot of money to gain access to and it's galling when you see scumbags getting free legal aid after stabbing someone.

I see sheep

I see sheep wrote: »

What's any of that got to do with lawyers?

Call me when you need to get a friend out of an abusive relationship, or a surgeon cuts an artery in a routine surgery and we can argue about how necessary lawyers are to society.

Do you trust a government to vindicate your legal rights in the absence of lawyers? History would suggest you are mistaken, if so.

crossman47

Yurt! wrote: »

It's known that our best maths graduates get hoovered up by the likes of Paddy Power in their graduate schemes. What a depressing outcome to see our brightest diverted into not only an 'industry' that's part of the unproductive sector of the economy, but an actual extremely harmful corner of it at that.

If not there they join the likes of hedge funds which are just as bad.

Stovepipe

Stovepipe wrote: »

Well,that "privilege" costs a lot of money to gain access to and it's galling when you see scumbags getting free legal aid after stabbing someone.

There's free legal aid for domestic abuse and family law too.

I'd happily see criminal law reformed, with more focus on intervention early in a criminal career etc, but I don't work in the area.

crossman47

Deleted User wrote: »

Meh, easy to knock lawyers but you live in a free society because of the law. The government can't just lock you up or seize your property because there's people out there who know the law and are willing to vindicate your rights.

Law is one of the greatest human constructs, probably just after language imo. It means that no matter who you are, you have the same rights as anyone else. That's a radical concept. I'm not aware of any other primate where all members of the tribe (or troop) are considered equals. Everything that makes life worthwhile and allows us express higher functions such as art and music are underpinned by the laws that bind society cohesively. Sure it's abused but in theory it's a truly beautiful thing. Hard to record an album like Abbey Road if you're worried a local lord is going to seize your crops and force your son into fighting in some bull**** land-grab war etc.

Thats all fine but its the fees they charge that are the problem. If everyone could access the law when needed, your argument would be stronger. Also, in US but not so much here (yet), lawyers create problems where none exist e.g. unavoidable accidents become claims.

buried

buried wrote: »

Well that's fair enough you doing good work like that, that is totally commendable and everybody including me will thank you for doing such actual proper work to utilize your skills and knowledge for the ultimate societal good like you have described. I know its a good feeling actually helping and being true to somebody else's bad situation. Its the only real happiness anybody can truly feel IMO, because it is right.

Thanks, you literally wouldn't believe what happens behind closed doors in Ireland. I've actually moved away from that sort of work because it's unrelenting to deal with that on a daily basis. No one calls a solicitor with good news (well, rare enough anyhow).

peasant

Deleted User wrote: »

Next time you hear of a spouse being beaten or an employee bullied, reflect on how lucky we are to live in a time when they have rights. Hell, there's religious groups beheading 11 year olds in Mozambique atm, that's pretty unlikely to happen here any time soon. Law is a beautiful thing, often abused, but no less beautiful for it.

That's basic human rights you're talking about, not law.

The law that makes lawyers such despicable creatures is the stuff they come up with between themselves, obfuscating the simplest things in convoluted language that is interpretable in at least three different ways.
The law is a job creation and money grabbing pyramid scheme ..the only one ever known to work and be "legal" too.

sorry for going off topic there ...but I just couldn't let you get away with your beheading

peasant

peasant wrote: »

That's basic human rights you're talking about, not law.

The law that makes lawyers such despicable creatures is the stuff they come up with between themselves, obfuscating the simplest things in convoluted language that is interpretable in at least three different ways.
The law is a job creation and money grabbing pyramid scheme ..the only on ever known to work and be "legal" too.

sorry for going off topic there ...but I just couldn't let you get away with your beheading

Human rights without the power of law to enforce them aren't much good when your 11 year old is being dragged off to be beheaded. That's even before you get into the issue of who determines what rights a person has etc.

The EU has forced Ireland to recognise certain human rights that as a nation we were indifferent (or hostile ) to recognising (gay rights in particular) and has protected workers rights etc. Did those rights really exist in Ireland until our Courts were forced to uphold them? If they did exist, can you tell me what was the use of them if the Court didn't recognise them etc?

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/africa/mozambique-militants-beheading-children-as-young-as-11-save-the-children-says-1.4511965

Theres a link to the beheadings that are happening as we speak. What good is the concept of human rights to those victims? They have the rights but no power to enforce them.

haskellgeek

ReginaldSmythV wrote: »

They’re not really. Admin staff would be a better description.

It's nothing like admin, if your doing actual software engineering.

peasant

Deleted User wrote: »

Human rights without the power of law to enforce them aren't much good ...

You keep missing the point.

The lawyers we all love to hate are those that we need to hire (and pay for) even though we shouldn't have to.

Forget your beheadings for a second and think about simple transactions, like buying property or making a will or generous gift.

These should be simple, uncomplicated transactions. But the "law" with all it's greedy officers has weedled itself into the simplest transactions with its obfuscating language, overly complicated procedures etc that leave the ordinary person no choice but to hire one of ye lest they be beheaded (at least financially).
IMO the law largely is there to create jobs for yet more lawyers...not to solve anything ...and that's why we love to hate you.

Now...please continue saving the world from beheadings far away

silliussoddius

peasant wrote: »

You keep missing the point.

The lawyers we all love to hate are those that we need to hire (and pay for) even though we shouldn't have to.

Forget your beheadings for a second and think about simple transactions, like buying property or making a will or generous gift.

These should be simple, uncomplicated transactions. But the "law" with all it's greedy officers has weedled itself into the simplest transactions with its obfuscating language, overly complicated procedures etc that leave the ordinary person no choice but to hire one of ye lest they be beheaded (at least financially).
IMO the law largely is there to create jobs for yet more lawyers...not to solve anything ...and that's why we love to hate you.

Now...please continue saving the world from beheadings far away

Is that. because of other lawyers or because of an individual who decides to hire a lawyer?

whisky_galore

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Meh, easy to knock lawyers but you live in a free society because of the law. The government can't just lock you up or seize your property because there's people out there who know the law and are willing to vindicate your rights.

Law is one of the greatest human constructs, probably just after language imo. It means that no matter who you are, you have the same rights as anyone else. That's a radical concept. I'm not aware of any other primate where all members of the tribe (or troop) are considered equals. Everything that makes life worthwhile and allows us express higher functions such as art and music are underpinned by the laws that bind society cohesively. Sure it's abused but in theory it's a truly beautiful thing. Hard to record an album like Abbey Road if you're worried a local lord is going to seize your crops and force your son into fighting in some bull**** land-grab war etc.

A self-interested group in cahoots with judiciary who have zero interest in any reform of the system. Keep the old gravy train going.
Only one real set of winners out of a legal battle, ka-ching!

Wanderer78

worded wrote:

I have a lot of respect for anyone creative, making or fixing something ...

Hes 100% correct, our economy has turned into a rent seeking one, hence many of our main issues, in particular housing

peasant

peasant wrote: »

You keep missing the point.

The lawyers we all love to hate are those that we need to hire (and pay for) even though we shouldn't have to.

Forget your beheadings for a second and think about simple transactions, like buying property or making a will or generous gift.

These should be simple, uncomplicated transactions. But the "law" with all it's greedy officers has weedled itself into the simplest transactions with its obfuscating language, overly complicated procedures etc that leave the ordinary person no choice but to hire one of ye lest they be beheaded (at least financially).
IMO the law largely is there to create jobs for yet more lawyers...not to solve anything ...and that's why we love to hate you.

Now...please continue saving the world from beheadings far away

Not missing your point, I just disagree with you.

Even take your property point above, we see it as a simple transaction now but again, it's a radical concept to even own a piece of land. Countries that don't have solid land law are less economically advanced than those that do. For years land was the primary source of wealth and how land was inherited became a source of conflict in societies (and even contributed to the extent of the Famine here). Societies that didn't have robust succession laws tended to collapse into land grabbing civil wars. The land law developed to avoid those conflicts. Land law gave certainty to who owned the land and provided a legal framework to resolve disputes. Land registers exist to provide records of who owns what etc, which also stops powerful lads using their power to seize your property.

So historically there's a good reason to have had solicitors involved in land law. Not so much now, and there's actually proposed changes to the profession here to bring in a separate profession to deal solely with land sales.

peasant

Deleted User wrote: »

...and there's actually proposed changes to the profession here to bring in a separate profession to deal solely with land sales.

quod erat demonstrandum :D:D

A separate profession no less ... more shysters to make off with our time and money.

Thanks for making my argument for me :D:D

peasant

peasant wrote: »

quod erat demonstrandum :D:D

A separate profession no less ... more shysters to make off with our time and money.

Thanks for making my argument for me :D:D

I can only hope every piece off land you ever purchase is seized by squatters and you keep to your principles and avoid calling a solicitor. I further hope your neighbours are loud, aggressive and extremely violent, making it simultaneously impossible to sleep and every waking moment a misery etc and you have no solution to any issues they bring into your life. You'll live to find merit in the law yet...

:pac::pac::pac:

Your Face

Going by that article, he doesn't know bollocks about engineering in this country.

Jim2007

Deleted User wrote: »

The EU has forced Ireland to recognise certain human rights that as a nation we were indifferent (or hostile ) to recognising (gay rights in particular) and has protected workers rights etc..

Not the case, if you take the time to read the treaties you’ll find a protocol to the treaty required by Ireland in which the EU member states agreed to not introduce any legislation relating gay rights until Ireland did so. You’ll also find several other similar protocols in there relating to Irish imposed restrictions or rights.

EU treaty negotiations used to consist of 26 member states plus the Irish people, but France was so impressed at Ireland’s ability to throw a spanner in the works that they altered their constitution to require referenda as well.

MarcusP12

JupiterKid wrote: »

Yep, would completely agree with McWilliams on this one.

I think this is the result of Business and Law college courses being very in vogue and popular in the 1990s and 2000s - and Engineering and the “hard” sciences being much less popular with students back then. This was predicted and warned about back then, too.

Also not enough apprentices in services such as plumbing, bricklaying, plastering etc. as the powers that be have pushed degree courses over those with less formal academic elements.

I would imagine the powers that be's primary aim here is to attract inward investment to the country that will create high paying jobs. What's the best way to do that? Push 3rd level education....

we're extremely lucky to have such an accessible 3rd level education system relative to say the states, etc. Society in general creates its own demand for the plumbers, electricians, mechanics etc as you'll always need people to fix stuff but creating the skilled work force which multinationals look for requires government intervention to push i would say....that's not to say they should ignore the trades obviously but if you're the minister for trade and employment or whatever their title is and you're negotiating with your foreign counterpart or multinational, which is easier to sell "we have a large number of 3rd level graduates eager to work for you or we've loads of plumber and plasters?". I'm not trying to diminish the importance of tradesmen, more giving my view on why there's a push on 3rd level education.

Besides, i'm sure it suits these trades to be in short supply and high demand so that they can charge as much as they do.......its cheaper to see a doctor than to get someone to look at your boiler these days.....

MarcusP12

Zebra3 wrote: »

Very much a snob attitude out there that people want their kids to go to college.

What's wrong with parents wanting their kids to go to college? What's snobbish about that in this day and age? Maybe they went to college themselves and enjoyed the experience and opportunities it gave them in life? or maybe they didn't get the opportunity themselves due to access and financial constraints and want to make sure their children get that chance?

Its not rocket science to think that a 3rd level education gives someone a better chance of getting a secure, well paid job and what parent doesn't want that for their children, assuming its not something that will make the child miserable?

If the child's skill set in is not in academia but the parents are still pushing for 3rd level, there can be many reasons for this that have nothing to do with snobbishness.......

Ireland has one too many david mcwilliams

Mike Murdock

Yurt! wrote: »

It's known that our best maths graduates get hoovered up by the likes of Paddy Power in their graduate schemes. What a depressing outcome to see our brightest diverted into not only an 'industry' that's part of the unproductive sector of the economy, but an actual extremely harmful corner of it at that.

That happens in the city of London too. Hedge Funds, banking and insurance get most of the top Maths & Science Grads.

In a way you can't blame the grads. If you are a recent one out of a 4 year course you'll have £36k+ in debt and the hedge Funds will pay you 40k plus if you are good enough. Plus bonuses on top of that. Even at entry-level.

Or you go work in a lab for 16-20k topping out at 40k in a few years. Unless you go onto PhD level.

15 years ago, I did a PG Business Diploma and 9 students were straight out of Engineering in Trinity. We had another 4 that were mature students still working in Engineering.

They all went on to become accountants.

completedit

The global economic and financial system is what it is. It has unsavoury aspects to it but I don't get McWilliam's fawning over 'creatives' such as the Stripe co-founders. Their company is like a spoke in this international economy that is characterized by a bloated financial system. They have been financed and achieved their wealth and status on the back of this system. To be fair, he does use the word 'too' many and I'm pretty sure McWilliams is aware more than most of the importance of hedge funds of generating capital for investment,

I think you'll find in today's world a lot of jobs exist just to exist. In a globally competitive world though you cannot afford to have a hoard of high status unproductive professionals like lawyers. If you're not ahead, you're behind.

Dyr

I'm guessing what he was getting at is Ireland has too many people who make a lot of money off the people who actually innovate.

completedit

Yeah and the lofty status afforded to those in said positions.

Tchaikovsky

Yes, too many sociopaths.